civic
Well-known member
Yes not an easy concept to wrap our finite minds around when it comes to infinite.
Did God ( Christ ) die ?
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civic
Well-known member
death can also mean separation of the soul/spirit from the body.
apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Definition: to die
Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 599: ἀποθνῄσκω
ἀποθνῄσκω, imperfect ἀπέθνῃσκον (Luke 8:42); 2 aorist ἀπέθανον; future ἀποθανοῦμαι, Romans 5:7; John 8:21, 24 (see θνῄσκω); found in Greek writings from Homer down; to die (ἀπό, so as to be no more; (cf. Latinemorior; English die off or out, pass away); German absterben,versterben);
I. used properly
1. of the natural death of men: Matthew 9:24; Matthew 22:24; Luke 16:22; John 4:47; Romans 7:2, and very often; ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἀποθνῄσκοντες subject to death, mortal, Hebrews 7:8 (Buttmann, 206 (178)).
2. of the violent death — both of animals, Matthew 8:32, and of men, Matthew 26:35; Acts 21:13 etc.; 1 Peter 3:18 L T Tr WH text; ἐν φόνῳ μαχαίρας, Hebrews 11:37; of the punishment of death, Hebrews 10:28; often of the violent death which Christ suffered, as John 12:33; Romans 5:6, etc.
3. Phrases: ἀποθνῄσκειν ἐκ τίνος, to perish by means of something, (cf. English to die of), Revelation 8:11; ἐν τῇ ἁμαρτία, ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις, fixed in sin, hence, to die unreformed, John 8:21, 24; ἐν τῷ Ἀδάμ by connection with Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:22; ἐν κυρίῳ in fellowship with, and trusting in, the Lord, Revelation 14:13; ἀποθνῄσκειν τί, to die a certain death, Romans 6:10 (θάνατον μακρόν, Chariton, p. 12, D'Orville edition (l. i. c. 8, p. 17, 6, Beck edition; cf. Winers Grammar, 227 (213); Buttmann, 149 (130))); τῇ ἁμαρτία, used of Christ, 'that he might not have to busy himself more with the sin of men,' Romans 6:10; ἑαυτῷ to become one's own master, independent, by dying, Romans 14:7 (cf. Meyer); τῷ κυρίῳ to become subject to the Lord's will by dying, Romans 14:8 (cf. Meyer); διά τινα i. e. to save one, 1 Corinthians 8:11; on the phrases ἀποθνῄσκειν περί and ὑπέρ τίνος, see περί, the passage cited δ. and ὑπέρ I. 2 and 3. Oratorically, although the proper signification of the verb is retained, καθ' ἡμέραν ἀποθνῄσκω I meet death daily, live daily in danger of death, 1 Corinthians 15:31, cf. 2 Corinthians 6:9.
4. of trees which dry up, Jude 1:12; of seeds, which while being resolved into their elements in the ground seem to perish by rotting, John 12:24; 1 Corinthians 15:36.
II. tropically, in various senses;
1. of eternal death, as it is called, i. e. to be subject to eternal misery, and that, too, already beginning on earth: Romans 8:13; John 6:50; John 11:26.
2. of moral death, in various senses;
a. to be deprived of real life, i. e. especially of the power of doing right, of confidence in God and the hope of future blessedness, Romans 7:10; of the spiritual torpor of those who have fallen from the fellowship of Christ, the fountain of true life, Revelation 3:2.
b. with the dative of the thing (cf. Winers Grammar, 210 (197); 428 (398); Buttmann, 178 (155)), to become wholly alienated from a thing, and freed from all connection with it: τῷ νόμῳ, Galatians 2:19, which must also be supplied with ἀποθανόντες (for so we must read for Rec.elz ἀποθανόντος) in Romans 7:6 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 159 (150)); τῇ ἁμαρτία, Romans 6:2 (in another sense in Romans 6:10; see I. 3 above); ἀπό τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου so that your relation to etc. has passed away, Colossians 2:20 (ἀπό τῶν παθῶν, Porphyry, de abst. animal. 1, 41 (cf. Buttmann, 322 (277); Winer's Grammar, 370 (347))); true Christians are said simply ἀποθανεῖν, as having put off all sensibility to worldly things that draw them away from God, Colossians 3:3; since they owe this habit of mind to the death of Christ, they are said also ἀποθανεῖν σύν Χριστῷ, Romans 6:8; Colossians 2:20. (Compare: συναποθνῄσκω.)
Diserner
Well-known member
That means the man Christ Jesus is not God, then.
A rather heretical stance to me.
So yeah, it's super faulty.
Diserner
Well-known member
Non-existance is a physicalist view of death.
Death is not "separation" from God, for Satan is tormented in the PRESENCE of the Holy Lamb.
God is everywhere, so you mean it "metaphorically," not literally—outside of the GLORY of his presence.
Death is never non-existence or separation from God.
We've been over this, spiritual death is relating negatively to God instead of positively.
God dying, is God experiencing his own wrath against our sins to fulfill his holy Law.
atpollard
Well-known member
"Evade" is the wrong word. I believe that "DEATH" tried to take a bite out of Christ and broke its teeth. "Christus Victor" ... a perfect and innocent God-Man died a death so terrible in its complete injustice (He who knew no sin was murdered by the very evil men that He was dying to save) that such an act COULD NOT STAND! The GRAVE spit Him out and DEATH was forever defeated. Christ alone stood victorious and IN HIM, we, too, have victory over Sin, Death and the Grave.
Just my 2 cents.
Diserner
Well-known member
We all have an intuitive desire to minimize Christ's suffering, I understand this.
Scripture does tell us, "For it was not possible for death to hold him," and that "he destroyed him who had the power of death."
However, to honor God's Law and God's holiness, I think it important we freely admit that Christ paid the FULL price of sin.
And not something partial or discounted.
civic
Well-known member
Nothing but assumptions again I provided the lexicon definitions on death which supports how God died.
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
There was the cup, Hell was in it, the Savior drank it—
not a sip and then a pause—
not a draught and then a ceasing.
He drained it till there is not a dreg left for any of His people....
The great cannonade of God's justice has exhausted all its ammunition...
— Spurgeon
not a sip and then a pause—
not a draught and then a ceasing.
He drained it till there is not a dreg left for any of His people....
The great cannonade of God's justice has exhausted all its ammunition...
— Spurgeon
Diserner
Well-known member
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night (Rev. 14:11 NKJ)
So... Satan never really "dies," huh.
atpollard
Well-known member
Honestly, as a 5-point Calvinist, I am not squeamish about accepting hard things. The issue for me, as a former atheist, is that the hard things MUST BE TRUE. I have some issues with the Father pouring wrath upon the Son. Not "That's too harsh" but more:
- The verses don't quite actually say that when you look at the wording of Scripture.
- It is a violation of OT Law ... raising issues of Holiness and Justice.
- It runs contrary to the OT sacrifice typology ... there is no WRATH poured on the Passover lamb.
- It is contradicted by verses that describe "wrath" as being stored up and directed against the unrepentant guilty.
civic
Well-known member
Not by your subjective definition of death but by mine he sure does. I don’t have 1 sing jr definition of death and neither does any lexicon or the Bible.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Points well taken and valid
atpollard
Well-known member
For the record, I agree 100%.
Where we have a difference of opinion is exactly how much the "Full price" is.
No more and no less.
atpollard
Well-known member
... for a Calvinist?
civic
Well-known member
Well on PSA anyways... for a Calvinist?
Diserner
Well-known member
That sounds really prideful.
We all have sinful desires, atpollard, you are not somehow "bigger and better" than the rest of us because you are a 5 point Calvinist.
Sin elicits wrath as punishment. That's not a wayyyy out there stretch from Scripture.
Huh? OT Law demands a curse on those who sin, Jesus became that curse.
The symbology was not exact, God is not a masochist who wants every animal to exhibit how terrible punishing sin is.
It's a lame and weak argument, and the sacrifices were BURNED to SYMBOLIZE wrath.
That's because WRATH IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN.
It's like A = B and B = C, but we can't make the connection A = C?
Come on.
You are looking for proof on a level that is beyond what is necessary, like the atheist saying they would just believe God with "proof" or the Unitarian asking for Jesus to say "I am God."
Because all of your objections are shallow and illogical, and you admit it is a "hard" truth right off the bat, yet you somehow put yourself as that "really tough guy who wants the truth no matter what," as a cover-up of pious talk.
I submit to that your own heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
The Scriptures are clear that the Law brings wrath.
The problem here is emotional, not logical.
Diserner
Well-known member
The seven sayings from the Cross:
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Did Jesus literally mean he was forsaken?
No! Because that makes God angry with himself!
Now we have a whole new world opened to us for what else Jesus said!
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Did Jesus literally mean what he said for his Father to forgive them?
Maybe not!
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ...
Did Jesus literally mean the thief would be with him in paradise?
Maybe not!
Woman, behold, thy son! ...
Did Jesus literally mean that Mary should be a mother to John?
Maybe not!
I thirst. ...
Did Jesus literally mean he thirsted?
Maybe not!
It is finished. ...
Did Jesus literally mean it was finished?
Maybe not!
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.
Did Jesus literally mean his spirit was commended into his Father's hands?
Maybe not!
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Did Jesus literally mean he was forsaken?
No! Because that makes God angry with himself!
Now we have a whole new world opened to us for what else Jesus said!
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Did Jesus literally mean what he said for his Father to forgive them?
Maybe not!
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ...
Did Jesus literally mean the thief would be with him in paradise?
Maybe not!
Woman, behold, thy son! ...
Did Jesus literally mean that Mary should be a mother to John?
Maybe not!
I thirst. ...
Did Jesus literally mean he thirsted?
Maybe not!
It is finished. ...
Did Jesus literally mean it was finished?
Maybe not!
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.
Did Jesus literally mean his spirit was commended into his Father's hands?
Maybe not!
atpollard
Well-known member
… on the guilty, unless they repent.
atpollard
Well-known member
PSALM 22
For the music director; upon [fn]Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my [fn]help are the words of my [fn]groaning.
2 My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but [fn]I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
You who [fn]are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You rescued them.
5 To You they cried out and they fled to safety;
In You they trusted and were not [fn]disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a person,
A disgrace of mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me deride me;
They [fn]sneer, they shake their heads, saying,
8 “[fn]Turn [fn]him over to the LORD; let Him save him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from [fn]birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Do not be far from me, for [fn]trouble is near;
For there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open their mouths wide at me,
As a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within [fn]me.
15 My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me [fn]in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
[fn]A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
[fn]They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And they cast lots for my clothing.
19 But You, LORD, do not be far away;
You who are my help, hurry to my assistance.
20 Save my [fn]soul from the sword,
My only life from the [fn]power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you [fn]descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you [fn]descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor scorned the suffering of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The [fn]afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
May your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before [fn]You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the [fn]prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will kneel before Him,
Even he who [fn]cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A [fn]posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
What was Jesus’ REAL message from the cross?
