Did God ( Christ ) die ?

[Johann]

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). So, could it be said that Jesus also “died” spiritually? Again, it was only His human nature that was separated from God, not His divine nature. God did not “die.”

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me" This is a quote from Ps. 22:1 (see full note online at Psalm 22). Since the Jewish scrolls had no chapter and verse divisions (all of which were added to Bible texts in the middle ages), it seems that by quoting the first verse, Jesus wanted to highlight the entire Psalm.

There is a difference of scholarly opinion on how this phrase should be translated

The Septuagint has "O God, My God, attend to me" (which happens in the Psalms)

The Peshitta (translated by George M. Lamsa) has

Ps. 22:1, "My God, my God, why hast thou let me live?"

Mark 15:34, "My God, my God, for this I was spared!"

The Jewish Publication Society of America has, Ps. 22:1 as "My God, my God, why have You abandoned me?"

Codex Bezae (fifth century) has "My God, my God, why have you reviled me?"

Isa 53:4 SurelyH403 Adv ’ā·ḵên אָכֵ֤ן our griefs,H2483 N-mpc+1cp ḥo·lā·yê·nū חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ HeH1931 Pro-3ms hū ה֣וּא has borneH5375 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms nā·śā נָשָׂ֔א and our sorrows;H4341 Conj-w+N-mpc+1cp ū·maḵ·’ō·ḇê·nū וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ N1 carriedH5445 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms+3mp sə·ḇā·lām סְבָלָ֑ם and yet weH587 Conj-w+Pro-1cp wa·’ă·naḥ·nū וַאֲנַ֣חְנוּ esteemed HimH2803 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp+3ms ḥă·šaḇ·nu·hū חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ stricken,H5060 H8803 V-Qal-QalPassPrtcpl-ms nā·ḡū·a‘ נָג֛וּעַ Smitten byH5221 H8716 V-Hofal-Prtcpl-msc muk·kêh מֻכֵּ֥ה God,H430 N-mp ’ĕ·lō·hîm אֱלֹהִ֖ים and afflicted.H6031 H8794 Conj-w+V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms ū·mə·‘un·neh וּמְעֻנֶּֽה׃

Jesus was experiencing the last full measure of human sin—separation from fellowship with the Father (cf. Isa. 53:4). Humans were created for fellowship with God (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 3:8); without it we can never be whole!

 

[Parker]

Where did Jesus go for the three days and three nights after dying on the cross? No one knows for certain where Jesus was the entire time during the three days between His crucifixion and resurrection. We know for certain where he was part of the time––in Paradise. But an enigmatic verse in 1 Peter about, “preaching to the spirits in prison” opens up other possibilities.

"For Christ died for sins once for all... to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built..." 1 Peter 3:18-20

What did Jesus preach to them, the gospel? Was He preaching to "the spirits in prison" intimates that the people who died before the crucifixion (especially the people who lived in the days of Noah) were given a second chance to repent! I don't think we can be sure since Peter is the only one that mentions this. But it's in the Bible.

You're right it's in the Bible and it's interesting to think about. We do know that God is just in his judgment—he even sent His own Son to ensure that salvation is offered to all, even to the spiritual beings who rebelled against God in the beginning and committed incredible atrocities against humanity.

WHEN MEN began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,
2 The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair, and they took wives of all they desired and chose.
3 Then the Lord said, My Spirit shall not forever dwell and strive with man, for he also is flesh; but his days shall yet be 120 years.
4 There were giants on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God lived with the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination and intention of all human thinking was only evil continually.
6 And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart. Genesis 6:1–6

God wishes to see all come to him.

The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Why does Peter communicate this message to us? What is he trying to explain?

I think first, Peter expands on the implications of Jesus’ death and resurrection: at some point, Jesus affirmed the condemnation of the fallen angels who had rebelled prior to [Noah’s flood] and had been imprisoned by God. Peter then employs the analogy of the salvation of Noah and his family through water to describe the salvation of believers through baptism: just as Noah was saved by righteousness, believers are saved by faith; baptism is symbolic of their act of faith.

Essentially, Christ’s resurrection has eternal implications for the divine beings that rebelled against God. The resurrected Christ is now elevated to the right hand of God with authority over all other angelic beings.

 

[Diserner]

Where did Jesus go for the three days and three nights after dying on the cross?

It wasn't quite 3 days and 3 nights it seems. But "the heart of the earth," he tells us.

I think we can deduce that Sheol was in the underworld with 2 compartments, half was Abraham's bosom or "paradise."

When Christ led captivity captive all the saints broke out of their graves in Jerusalem, indicating a transference of location.

Paradise was raised with the Christ's ascension up to the third heaven, for death had been defeated at that time.

I would not see a "2nd chance" Gospel in Christ preaching to dead spirits—we don't know exactly what he preached.

A "2nd chance" Gospel really minimizes the importance of evangelism, and we should never do that.

 

[Diserner]

He was dead. You could have checked his pockets for loose change. However, Peter tells us what was going on in the background. He was put to death in the flesh, so you could pick up His hand and let go and it would instantly drop. You could check His pulse (He didn't have one). However, how do you check to see if the spirit is dead? If His Spirit was dead and remained dead, He would have gone to hell as an inmate, and not to proclaim His victory over sin and death.

Not necessarily.

An infinite being can experience in finite time, what a finite being and experience in infinite time—there is no logic against this.

Now which is the clearer verse:

"I was dead."

"Being made alive in the Spirit."


Dead things are naturally the things that are "made alive"..... not alive things.

 

[Diserner]

There is a difference of scholarly opinion on how this phrase should be translated

Other opinions are really huge outliers, far-fetched, also theologically motivated.

It's clear in the context of Psalm 22 and Jesus on the cross these means forsaken.

 

[armylngst]

Not necessarily.

An infinite being can experience in finite time, what a finite being and experience in infinite time—there is no logic against this.

Now which is the clearer verse:

"I was dead."

"Being made alive in the Spirit."


Dead things are naturally the things that are "made alive"..... not alive things.

Why are you trying to negate scripture? Please stop. Why do you deny the nature of Christ? Why do you negate His sacrifice, and consign all humanity to hell? Why do you refuse to recognize that Jesus is God, but Jesus is also human?

 

[civic]

"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)

The Belgic Confession 19, "But these two natures are so closely united in one Person that they were not separated even by His death. Therefore that which He, when dying, commended into the hands of His Father, was a real human spirit, departing from His body. But in the meantime the divine nature always remained united with the human, even when He lay in the grave; and the Godhead did not cease to be in Him, any more than it did when He was an infant, though it did not so clearly manifest itself for a while."

Persons die not natures. His Person is Divine- the Eternal Son the 2nd Person of the Trinity, Incarnate.

 

[Diserner]

Why are you trying to negate scripture? Please stop. Why do you deny the nature of Christ? Why do you negate His sacrifice, and consign all humanity to hell? Why do you refuse to recognize that Jesus is God, but Jesus is also human?

If God can become a man, than God can die.

They are both paradoxical states.

I think that greatly elevates the sacrifice of Christ, as just a human body dying is a daily occurrence.

This does not put all of humanity in hell, I don't know where you deduced that.

 

[Johann]

If God can become a man, than God can die.

I would politely disagree here-the Man Christ Jesus died-not God.
Johann.

 

[Diserner]

I would politely disagree here-the Man Christ Jesus died-not God.
Johann.

Let me help you with a little bit of logic, here.

Politely.

Jesus = God

Jesus = died

Logic dictates with transitive law that whatever Jesus is, must be communicated.

So.... you're going to have to say one of the two isn't true:

1. Jesus isn't God.

2. Jesus didn't die.

Pick your poison.

 

[Johann]

Let me help you with a little bit of logic, here.

Politely.

Jesus = God

Jesus = died

Logic dictates with transitive law that whatever Jesus is, must be communicated.

So.... you're going to have to say one of the two isn't true:

1. Jesus isn't God.

2. Jesus didn't die.

Pick your poison.

Read The history of Christian doctrines by Louis Berkhof.

Read Atonement by Free Grace Broadcaster.

We all are fallible and have a very superficial gnosis on the Atonement.

If you are serious-you will read what I have given you brother-especially in view of the widespread doctrinal indifference of the present day-of the resulting superficiality and confusion in the minds of many professing Christians-of the insidious errors that are zealously propagated even from the pulpits-and of the alarming increase of all kinds of sects.
If there ever was a time when the Church ought to guard her precious heritage-the deposit of the truth that was entrusted to her care, that time is NOW!
Louis Berkhof

There are questions-and then, there are questions.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


Except it have been given him from heaven (ean mē ēi dedomenon autōi ek tou ouranou). See the same idiom in Joh_6:65 (cf. Joh_19:11). Condition of third class, undetermined with prospect of determination, ean mē with the periphrastic perfect passive subjunctive of didōmi.

The perfect tense is rare in the subjunctive and an exact rendering into English is awkward, “unless it be granted him from heaven.” See 1Co_4:7 where Paul says the same thing.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

J.

 

[Johann]

Let me help you with a little bit of logic, here.

Politely.

Jesus = God

Jesus = died

Logic dictates with transitive law that whatever Jesus is, must be communicated.

So.... you're going to have to say one of the two isn't true:

1. Jesus isn't God.

2. Jesus didn't die.

Pick your poison.

The Birth of God

Should answer your question.
Johann.

 

[Diserner]

The Birth of God

Should answer your question.
Johann.

I didn't ask a question.

I showed faulty logic.

Books, sermons, videos... they don't make the logic go away.

 

[Johann]

I didn't ask a question.

I showed faulty logic.

Books, sermons, videos... they don't make the logic go away.

Nothing faulty in my logic-the Man Christ Jesus died-not God.
Thanks
J.

 

[e v e]

the heart of the earth is in the other reality
where eden was, now sheol --- not this earth

 

[e v e]

only the fleshbody died...

 

[Johann]

Nothing faulty in my logic-the Man Christ Jesus died-not God.
Thanks
J.

We believe that Jesus Christ was God incarnate. We also believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross. If we say that God died on the cross, and if by that we mean that the divine nature perished, we have stepped over the edge into serious heresy.

In fact, two such heresies related to this problem arose in the early centuries of the church: theopassianism and patripassianism.

The first of these, theopassianism, teaches that God Himself suffered death on the cross. Patripassianism indicates that the Father suffered vicariously through the suffering of His Son. Both of these heresies were roundly rejected by the church for the very reason that they categorically deny the very character and nature of God, including His immutability. There is no change in the substantive nature or character of God at any time.

It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.

God not only created the universe, He sustains it by the very power of His being. As Paul said, “In Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

If the being of God ceased for one second, the universe would disappear. It would pass out of existence, because nothing can exist apart from the sustaining power of God. If God dies, everything dies with Him. Obviously, then, God could not have perished on the cross.

Some say, “It was the second person of the Trinity Who died.” That would be a mutation within the very being of God, because when we look at the Trinity we say that the three are one in essence, and that though there are personal distinctions among the persons of the Godhead, those distinctions are not essential in the sense that they are differences in being. Death is something that would involve a change in one’s being.

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ.

Somehow people tend to think that this lessens the dignity or the value of the substitutionary act, as if we were somehow implicitly denying the deity of Christ. God forbid. It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.

@dizerner -discern biblically-rightly cutting straight the D'var of YHVH

Did God Die on the Cross?

 

[armylngst]

If God can become a man, than God can die.

They are both paradoxical states.

I think that greatly elevates the sacrifice of Christ, as just a human body dying is a daily occurrence.

This does not put all of humanity in hell, I don't know where you deduced that.

You don't understand the nature of Christ. He was the Logos taken upon Himself flesh. Not become human, but incarnate. Both God and man. You do know that in the scriptural meaning of death it means separation from God, right? So how does God become separate from God? Non-existence is the only way. However, if God were to become nonexistent, then, God never existed at all. (That's the nature of eternity.)

I understand that perfect, sinless humans die everyday, and is a common occurrence... or is it? All people go to hell if Jesus is not who He claimed to be, and you keep saying He was not.

 

[Sabertooth]

The full implications of the OP are unknowable because I accept (but cannot quantify) The Trinity.
On a much smaller scale, I can accept mathematical i, but I cannot produce an image containing i apple(s).

Maybe it will become obvious when we arrive at 1 John 3:2.