Deity of Christ but not Trinitarian

[Runningman]

When you deal with what I wrote, I will answer you. Please deal with what I wrote. You're deflecting.

It's being dealt with. You said the law reflects inabilities and Jesus contradicted you by telling them to stop sinning. Sinning is the transgression of the law, yes? Jesus, in effect, told them to stop breaking the law before he knew they could if they wanted to.

 

[Runningman]

sorry in several ways. But one way is that I added more content to that post. Here is what I added
You just have to read passages in the context given and recognize that not every verse is treated as a universal law. Jesus identified the guys real problem -- his love of money. You also have to note that this is the only place where Jesus reviewed the laws to see he acknowledges having lived to those. This approach superficially contradicts the passage in John that the work of God is to believe on the Son whom God sent.

Like I said. You have to recognize that context is important. Jesus is not contradicting himself.

The love of money wasn't the real problem. The part about getting eternal life was related to keeping the 10 Commandments, not the love of money. Read it again.

 

[Runningman]

You haven't kept them. Neither did they.

So you haven't kept them, then what does that mean? Judgement right?

Indeed. We will all be judged according to our works based on keeping God's laws even if you simply believe in Jesus. The final judgement in the New Testament is all works based in every example.

 

[mikesw]

The love of money wasn't the real problem. The part about getting eternal life was related to keeping the 10 Commandments, not the love of money. Read it again.

Perfect. I was right in my assessment in the first place.
Matthew 19:23 (NKJV)

23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Much of the problem could be related to the manner by which he got his riches. Also, there is the problem of hoarding rather than realizing this is an opportunity to help others. Another big problem is he did not listen to Jesus in providing critical direction. In Mar 10:21, Jesus's love for him was expressed. This man's heart was almost right but he loved money too much.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's being dealt with. You said the law reflects inabilities and Jesus contradicted you by telling them to stop sinning. Sinning is the transgression of the law, yes? Jesus, in effect, told them to stop breaking the law before he knew they could if they wanted to.

You need to stop lying. You ignored the verses I posted from Romans 3

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

From these verses, we have a clear and exacting picture of what the intent of the law.

You're guilty. Just admit it.

Jesus told people to keep the law because he knew they would try and fail. Thusly, they would end up right where you are and where Paul referenced.

Guilty. Stop pretend you keep the law admit you're guilty. I bet you've never even read all the laws given. There are hundreds of them. When are you going to start wearing blue in the border of your garments?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Indeed. We will all be judged according to our works based on keeping God's laws even if you simply believe in Jesus. The final judgement in the New Testament is all works based in every example.

What good deed have you done to inherit Eternal life? You don't have life in the law. If you did, and you keep it like you say you do, then you wouldn't die.

Do you need the Resurrection?

Death and Resurrection is perfect are perfect examples of your inabilities.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
The Bible says mankind has never seen the supreme being in person nor heard
the sound of His own voice.

The Bible also says the supreme being abides in solitude; hidden from view by the
intensity of an impenetrable illumination.

If that's correct, it would mean that every instance in the Old Testament wherein
it's said God spoke and/or appeared, was neither the actual voice nor the actual
appearance of the supreme being.

Just think: in all that time, in all those many centuries, from Genesis to Malachi,
mankind's contact with the supreme being has never even once been of a third
kind, rather, all those contacts with the supreme being have been entirely
indirect via things like apparitions, dreams, angels, and theophanies.

After reviewing Moses' experiences in the book of Exodus, I've come to realize that
mankind has seen little else of the supreme being other than the wake that a ship
makes in the water. We know there's a ship somewhere out there in that wake, but
mankind has yet to catch sight of its structure.

Relatively little is known about the supreme being, and even that which can be known
is confusing. Arguments over the so-called trinity are sort of like the futility of a group
of blind men arguing over the characteristics of an elephant based upon the part of the
elephant that each man happens to be touching.
_

 

[AaronH]

I agree with the divinity of Jesus as long as divinity is not redefined to be equal to the word deity. Divinity is about the characteristics that Jesus and Christians can share with the deity. However, having some of the divine characteristics does not make someone deity. I don't believe this distinction is compatible with the Trinitarian concept

Well described and super important distinction you made here.

 

[AaronH]

Deity and Divinity deal with the same construct. Deity is simply a reference to "God". Divinity deals with the qualities/characteristics of being God.

Both words compliment one another. The "contrast" set forth by some is preposterous.

I think the contrast between those two words is very important, but let's say you are correct and there isn't any. Could you tell me what you think of these verses from Psalm 82?

6 said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

 

[mikesw]

I think the contrast between those two words is very important, but let's say you are correct and there isn't any. Could you tell me what you think of these verses from Psalm 82?

6 said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

Funny. This is what Jesus answered to the Pharisees when they were saying Jesus was blasphemous. Jesus also asked them how the Messiah could simply be the son of David when David said in the psalm "the Lord said to my Lord."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I agree with the divinity of Jesus as long as divinity is not redefined to be equal to the word deity. Divinity is about the characteristics that Jesus and Christians can share with the deity. However, having some of the divine characteristics does not make someone deity. I don't believe this distinction is compatible with the Trinitarian concept.

That's why Trinitarians and Unitarians should understand that the things that make them love and follow Jesus are the divine things about Jesus.
Jesus came from God, spoke the words of God, did the acts of God, showed us by example the love of God.
All that is divine. Jesus is divine. And that's why we love Him and follow Him.

From the point of view of the study of religions, I am a Baha'i, not a Christian. And however, the official position of the Baha'i Faith on Christ says:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted... etc." Shoghi Effendi

 

[civic]

That's why Trinitarians and Unitarians should understand that the things that make them love and follow Jesus are the divine things about Jesus.
Jesus came from God, spoke the words of God, did the acts of God, showed us by example the love of God.
All that is divine. Jesus is divine. And that's why we love Him and follow Him.

From the point of view of the study of religions, I am a Baha'i, not a Christian. And however, the official position of the Baha'i Faith on Christ says:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted... etc." Shoghi Effendi

does that statement affirm as Christianity teaches the Father and Son are equal in their Divinity, Deity as God ?

 

[civic]

Well described and super important distinction you made here.

that's nothing but word salad- obfuscation

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

does that statement affirm as Christianity teaches the Father and Son are equal in their Divinity, Deity as God ?

No.
And my contention is that the love you feel for Jesus... the love that makes you follow his teachings and make his Gospel rule your everyday life, has nothing to do with his deity, but with his divinity.

You wouldn't stop doing a single good thing you are doing ... and you wouldn't start doing a single bad thing you were not doing... based on whether Jesus is God or not.

 

[civic]

No.
And my contention is that the love you feel for Jesus... the love that makes you follow his teachings and make his Gospel rule your everyday life, has nothing to do with his deity, but with his divinity.

You wouldn't stop doing a single good thing you are doing ... and you wouldn't start doing a single bad thing you were not doing... based on whether Jesus is God or not.

deity and divinity are synonyms terms.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

deity and divinity are synonyms terms.

Not theologically... But you just hit a very good point, the most important of all.
In our daily lives, they mean the same.

If Jesus is God, you will do what He asks you to do.
If Jesus was sent by God, you will do what He asks you to do.

So, an alien observing our daily lives could not tell who believes in Jesus deity and who believes in Jesus divinity but not in his deity.
Well, we don't need an alien for the example Let's think in an atheist Chinese who has never read about theology.

 

[civic]

Not theologically... But you just hit a very good point, the most important of all.
In our daily lives, they mean the same.

If Jesus is God, you will do what He asks you to do.
If Jesus was sent by God, you will do what He asks you to do.

So, an alien observing our daily lives could not tell who believes in Jesus deity and who believes in Jesus divinity but not in his deity.

In many of these thread lately we see a devalue of Christ and not holding Him in the highest esteem. Even Paul said I know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. He was a slave of Christ and He was his Master/Lord. Total and complete allegiance to Christ. Paul honored, praised, worshiped ,glorified and prayed to Him as we read in the innovations and doxologies written by Paul Exalting Christ equally with the Father in addressing Them in His prayers and introductions in all his letters. In one of them Paul said equality with God was not something He reached for, grasped at because it was already His. Being in the very form of God and he said of Christ- God was manifest in the flesh.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In many of these thread lately we see a devalue of Christ and not holding Him in the highest esteem. Even Paul said I know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. He was a slave of Christ and He was his Master/Lord. Total and complete allegiance to Christ.

I understand your point, my brother.
I just encourage you to consider that this complete allegiance, has nothing to do with believing He is God, but with doing what He asks us to do: doing the will of His Father, loving each other. This is the way Jesus wanted us to prove our allegiance

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.’" (Mat 7:21-23)

According to Jesus, the rock, the foundation, is not a set of doctrines about Christ, but obeying the commandments of Christ.

Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I say? Whoever comes to Me and hears My words and does them, I will show whom he is like: He is like a man who ... laid the foundation on rock... But he who hears and does not obey is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation..." (Luke 6:46-49)

According to Jesus, the proof of discipleship is not the belief in his deity, but a life of love to others

By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

.

 

[civic]

I understand your point, my brother.
I just encourage you to consider that this complete allegiance, has nothing to do with believing He is God, but with doing what He asks us to do: doing the will of His Father, loving each other. This is the way Jesus wanted us to prove our allegiance

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.’" (Mat 7:21-23)

Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I say? (Luke 6:46)

By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

We could go on and on with more biblical evidence that making Christ the Lord of your life means making his gospel rule our lives.

Yet only God should rule a believers life- anyone else ruling it would be IDOLATRY according to scripture.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yet only God should rule a believers life- anyone else ruling it would be IDOLATRY according to scripture.

If Jesus rules your life, you will do the will of God, his Father.
That's why God asked us to listen to His Son.

If Jesus had taught something CONTRARY to the will of God, then you would be in a problem having to decide who to serve... and serving Jesus in such circumstance would be an act of idolatry. Since this is not the case, there is nothing to worry about.