Deity of Christ but not Trinitarian

[Runningman]

sorry the Son before anything was created shared the same Glory together with the Father.

next fallacy

Your premise was that you believe Jesus is God because of the glory he received, but the disciples received the same glory as Jesus. The glory you are referring to doesn't mean Jesus is God. You're reading it the wrong way. Slow down and think clearly.

 

[civic]

Your premise was that you believe Jesus is God because of the glory he received, but the disciples received the same glory as Jesus. The glory you are referring to doesn't mean Jesus is God. You're reading it the wrong way. Slow down and think clearly.

you make Jesus a liar below- bearing false witness against Him

New International Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

New Living Translation
Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

English Standard Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Berean Standard Bible
And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Berean Literal Bible
And now glorify Me, You Father, with Yourself, with the glory that I had with You before the world existed.

King James Bible
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

New King James Version
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

New American Standard Bible
And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

 

[Runningman]

you make Jesus a liar below- bearing false witness against Him

New International Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

New Living Translation
Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

English Standard Version
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Berean Standard Bible
And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Berean Literal Bible
And now glorify Me, You Father, with Yourself, with the glory that I had with You before the world existed.

King James Bible
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

New King James Version
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

New American Standard Bible
And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

That's the same glory the disciples received. Why is Jesus God and the disciples aren't. You need to be able to explain this.

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

 

[civic]

That's the same glory the disciples received. Why is Jesus God and the disciples aren't. You need to be able to explain this.

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

The Son existed before creation- only God pre exists creatin

next fallacy

all you do is diversion.

 

[Runningman]

The Son existed before creation- only God pre exists creatin

next fallacy

all you do is diversion.

Verse about what Jesus was saying or doing before creation?

Side question, was Jesus slain before the world was created?

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

 

[mikesw]

The word incarnate isn't there. Why do you interpret it a way they didn't think to say?

Because Christ has giving me insight into scripture. It might interest you to know there are words we can use to describe stuff in scripture. it is kind of neat that my vocabulary is not unnecessarily limited when discussing complex topics.

 

[Runningman]

Because Christ has giving me insight into scripture. It might interest you to know there are words we can use to describe stuff in scripture. it is kind of neat that my vocabulary is not unnecessarily limited when discussing complex topics.

So one might say you have an interpretation then. Your claim to being given divine insight that wasn't previously presented by God, Jesus, or the apostles is questionable. Please quote something the Word said or did in the Old Testament and then I will be a believer.

 

[mikesw]

So one might say you have an interpretation then. Your claim to being given divine insight that wasn't previously presented by God, Jesus, or the apostles is questionable. Please quote something the Word said or did in the Old Testament and then I will be a believer.

You are losing all logic here. What do you want to hear what the Word said as he walked on the earth revealing himself as the Messiah?

Luke 16:27-31
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’

 

[Runningman]

You are losing all logic here. What do you want to hear what the Word said as he walked on the earth revealing himself as the Messiah?

Luke 16:27-31
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’

You're like a lawyer in a court room trying to prove a point and you forgot all of your evidence. You're essentially saying, "There is a real person named the Word! I have witnesses" and then you can't provide the evidence or testimony of it.

Again, I asked you where the Word is saying or doing anything in Scripture. I already know. You don't have anything.

 

[mikesw]

You're like a lawyer in a court room trying to prove a point and you forgot all of your evidence. You're essentially saying, "There is a real person named the Word! I have witnesses" and then you can't provide the evidence or testimony of it.

Again, I asked you where the Word is saying or doing anything in Scripture. I already know. You don't have anything.

The Word was walking among the people publicly for 3 years. Some people cannot comprehend the simplest things in scripture though

 

[civic]

The Word was walking among the people publicly for 3 years. Some people cannot comprehend the simplest things in scripture though

Yep the Word is a person.

Rev 19:13- And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… the Word became flesh and dwelled among us. And we beheld His glory.

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Amen to the Person called the Word who is God.

 

[mikesw]

Yep the Word is a person.

Rev 19:13- And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… the Word became flesh and dwelled among us. And we beheld His glory.

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Amen to the Person called the Word who is God.

ruinningman just assented to the shared identity of the Word and Christ by quoting Meyer's commentary and thereby incorporating Meyer's view.
see Meyer on John 1

 

[civic]

ruinningman just assented to the shared identity of the Word and Christ by quoting Meyer's commentary and thereby incorporating Meyer's view.
see Meyer on John 1

I'll check it out

 

[Fred]

ruinningman just assented to the shared identity of the Word and Christ by quoting Meyer's commentary and thereby incorporating Meyer's view.
see Meyer on John 1

The boldface and underlined below are mine.
Meyer was discussing how the Logos was understood at a certain time, but then later on when John wrote about the Logos notice what Meyer writes:

"As, therefore, by θεός without the article, John neither desires to indicate, on the, one hand, identity of Person with the Father; nor yet, on the other, any lower nature than that which God Himself possesses: so his doctrine of the Logos is definitely distinguished from that of Philo..therefore, is not to be explained by help of Philo, nor is it to be converted into a general qualitative idea “ divine ,” “ God-like ” (B. Crusius), which deprives the expression of the precision which, especially considering the strict monotheism of the N. T. (in John, see in particular John 17:3, it must possess, owing to the conception of the personal Logos as a divine being.


Meyer on John 1:2:
for if it was this same Logos, and no other than He, who Himself was God, who lived in the beginning in fellowship with God, and consequently when creation began, the whole creation, nothing excepted, must have come into existence through Him.


Meyer on John 1:14:
The ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο is a definite act in the consummation of His history. He became flesh, i.e . a corporeal material being, visible and tangible (1 John 1:2), which He was not before, and by which it is self-evident that the human mode of existence in which He appeared, which we have in the person of Jesus, and which was known to the reader, is intended...a really corporeal personality, i.e . the God-man Jesus Christ

John 1 - Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 1, Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, Meyer's New Testament Commentary provides critical insights through original text analysis, essential for Christian comprehension.

www.studylight.org

 

[mikesw]

The boldface and underlined below are mine.
Meyer was discussing how the Logos was understood at a certain time, but then later on when John wrote about the Logos notice what Meyer writes:
...
Meyer on John 1:2:
for if it was this same Logos, and no other than He, who Himself was God, who lived in the beginning in fellowship with God, and consequently when creation began, the whole creation, nothing excepted, must have come into existence through Him.
...
Concerning John 1:14 Meyer wrote this concerning the Logos:
The ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο is a definite act in the consummation of His history. He became flesh, i.e . a corporeal material being, visible and tangible (1 John 1:2), which He was not before, and by which it is self-evident that the human mode of existence in which He appeared, which we have in the person of Jesus, and which was known to the reader, is intended...a really corporeal personality, i.e . the God-man Jesus Christ

Sure. I figured that ruinningman was quoting something he thought would convince that the Word did not refer to Christ. His post only showed a broader concept of the Word. The quote was a bit wordy (and overly scholarly in detail) such that I just skimmed through it with the sense that Meyer was not denying the Word as Christ.
Here is the commentary in book form archive.org Meyer Commentary on John

 

[Fred]

Sure. I figured that ruinningman was quoting something he thought would convince that the Word did not refer to Christ. His post only showed a broader concept of the Word. The quote was a bit wordy (and overly scholarly in detail) such that I just skimmed through it with the sense that Meyer was not denying the Word as Christ.

Where did Runningman do this?

 

[mikesw]

Where did Runningman do this?

sorry. I see that I made the link inconspicuous

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/council-of-nicea-and-constantinople.2051/page-5#post-114341

Compare posts #91 and #93

 

[Fred]

sorry. I see that I made the link inconspicuous

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/council-of-nicea-and-constantinople.2051/page-5#post-114341

Thanks!

He did the same thing about 6 months ago on another site and I supplied the same information to him as I did in post 194.

Rather than accepting what the facts are he continues to perpetuate his lie.


Totally disgusting.

 

[mikesw]

Thanks!

He did the same thing about 6 months ago on another site and I supplied the same information to him as I did above.

Rather than accepting what the facts are he continues to perpetuate his lie.


Totally disgusting.

At least he should stop quoting a scholar who is against the view runningman takes. And he should not repeat quoting that scholar when making an argument later on.

 

[Fred]

At least he should stop quoting a scholar who is against the view runningman takes. And he should not repeat quoting that scholar when making an argument later on.

This is the tactic of heretics.