Could it be happening now ?

[Doug Brents]

Have you ever thought about why it was necessary for the Lord to "encode" Revelation, instead of just plainly and literally stating what would happen? Well, I have heard that probably the main reason was because that the people in charge, the Romans, if they read a plain narrative of what was going to happen, especially if they themselves were depicted in the story, might use it as evidence against all Christians and persecute them even more. Couldn't that also be the reason why Daniel's visions were "encoded"? - because current emperors wouldn't want to hear about a future emperor that would overthrow them. That too, could cause trouble for Daniel's people, the Jews.
Could it also be a means of testing Christians, even today? I believe a devoted believer will WANT the blessing mentioned in Revelation 1:3, and so will read and study the book. On the other hand, some Christians may have little interest in the book, and not even bother to read it, and thereby reveal their lack of desire to grow spiritually. Unfortunately, I think I can say that I haven't always desired to study it, as I should have.

This is probably true. But an even more important reason, I believe, is that God does not want Satan to know the exact timing of these things. That is why even Christ did not know the time of His second coming; because if He knew it, then Satan could know it. And if Satan knew the time of his destruction, he would ramp up his assault against the Church to match the end he saw coming.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Is the rapture and return of Christ imminent?

Are we about to enter into the time of Jacob’s Trouble , the great tribulation period ?



View Video #2

"Could it be happening now?" - Well, not right now, but I believe very, very soon.

Here's a very ominous short film animation featuring a preview of what life in the soon-to-open detention centers/camps will look like for those who don't comply with the Beast system's commands that will be enforced during the final phases of the current Plandemic [we are now in the "Calm Before The Storm" phase mentioned by Donald Trump] :

BEYOND THE RESET - Animated Short Film

 

[Rapture Bound]

I am simply pointing out an undeniable truth of this world God placed me in.

A truth you also promote as your own words expose.

"I have found that many who think they have a different religion than I do "are often a member of a cult" - Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc. These cults and those who believe them are right in saying that they have a different religion than I do, because they are not Biblical Christianity."

The difference between you and I on this front, is that you believe these religions of this world God placed us in, that "transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions", are inferior to you and the Religion of this world that you have adopted, that also "transgresses God's Commandments by their own religious traditions".

It is clear, according to the Jesus "of the Bible", men should take heed of any religion who "transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions", even if they transgress God's commandments, "In His Name".



I belong to the group of believers that Paul and Abraham partook of. As a result, "I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

It's not a religious business or franchise, it's a way of life.




Gosh no, I'm not above the Gifted teachers that God Chose to write about HIM in the Holy Scriptures. Both in the Law and Prophets, and in the Testimony. I believe and follow those Words. I trust their words and have submitted to them. It's man's preaching that I take heed and beware of, as I am instructed to do, not the gifted Teachers that Paul said God Inspired.

Paul said I have everything I need in this world, to overcome the deceiver who comes in Christ's Name. He said;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I have God's armor, His Mercy and Grace, Atonement provided by His son to those the Father gives Him, the examples HE had written for my admonition. Why would I throw that away just to support some random religious business which existed in the world God placed me in?



Thanks goodness then, that I am not the only one who trusts what is written. And the adults I meet with in study and fellowship, they too believe in what is written. And there are men on this very forum who also believes the Scriptures.



According to Paul;

2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So I don't agree with your definition of a "Christian". Every religion that you preach to others is a "Cult" calls themselves "Christian" and "Disciples of Christ". I prefer to use the Bible's Definition of a "Christian", and that would be a repentant person who, as Paul defines, "Repents, turns to God, does Works worthy of repentance". Are we not told to "put on a New Man" which is "Christ-Like". Or as it is written in another place;

1 John 2: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Did Jesus walk in the religions of men in His Time who transgressed God's Commandments by their own traditions? I would say NO! So why would a man choose the philosophies of a religious business that clearly and openly does that today?


Jesus loved the mainstream preachers of His Time by telling them the truth about their doctrines and religious traditions. They didn't like it much either and didn't love Him back by confessing what was obvious to Him and John the Baptist. I am not alone in my understanding of scriptures.



What scriptures were they again? I must have missed that post.

Thanks again for allowing our discussion to continue. These things are important to talk about, in my view.

You stated, "I belong to the group of believers that Paul and Abraham partook of. As a result, "I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

Interesting, you got my curiosity peaked. What exactly are you saying here? - are you part of any denomination or group of people professing the Christian faith? I'm pretty sure you understand what I'm asking you here. You certainly aren't obligated answer my questions, you are free to hide your affiliation if you so choose [that is ... if you actually have any affiliation whatsover]. God Bless!

 

[DavP]

I get what you are saying, but there seems to be a contradiction between Scriptures then. Rev 20:11 does not say that Earth was changed, nor that the Earth was cleaned off so that it could be repopulated as after the Flood. It says, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them." No place was found, period; they were gone. And this agrees with 2 Pet 3:10 which says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up."
Both Psalms and Ecclesiastes refer to "forever" which is a "time" term, but if time is purely a part of this creation, then time will be destroyed at the same time that the universe is destroyed. And so the Earth will last as long as there is time (forever).

We have to consider all... of God's written Word, not just portions. I'm well aware what those above verses say. However, Zechariah 14, which I pointed to about what happens on the day of Christ's future return, you simply bypassed in your consideration, which you shouldn't do that.

Christ's future return is on the "day of the Lord". That is when Peter said God's consuming fire would come upon the earth, burning up man's works. Did you not know that Apostle Paul also covered that future event of God's consuming fire?

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

"Yet once more"? And just when... did God shake this earth to that level of verse 27, but not heaven?

If you can receive it, Apostle Paul revealed there that God shook this old earth back at the time when Satan first rebelled, ending the 1st world earth age that Peter actually hinted at in 2 Peter 3 with "the world that then was". There has actually been 2 world-wide floods upon this earth, not just the flood of Noah's day. God ended Satan's original rebellion against Him using a flood. The flood of Noah's day did not literally destroy this earth, and there is no mention of God having to re-create the earth again after the flood of Noah's day. God's future consuming fire event won't literally turn the earth into a Sci-Fi movie asteroid belt either. And the Zechariah 14 reign by Lord Jesus is one major proof of it; so are the Ezekiel temple chapters of Ezekiel 40 through 48 which are all future involving this earth. Lot of strong meat there, I hope you take your time and chew on it brother.

 

[Doug Brents]

We have to consider all... of God's written Word, not just portions. I'm well aware what those above verses say. However, Zechariah 14, which I pointed to about what happens on the day of Christ's future return, you simply bypassed in your consideration, which you shouldn't do that.

Christ's future return is on the "day of the Lord". That is when Peter said God's consuming fire would come upon the earth, burning up man's works. Did you not know that Apostle Paul also covered that future event of God's consuming fire?

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

"Yet once more"? And just when... did God shake this earth to that level of verse 27, but not heaven?

If you can receive it, Apostle Paul revealed there that God shook this old earth back at the time when Satan first rebelled, ending the 1st world earth age that Peter actually hinted at in 2 Peter 3 with "the world that then was". There has actually been 2 world-wide floods upon this earth, not just the flood of Noah's day. God ended Satan's original rebellion against Him using a flood. The flood of Noah's day did not literally destroy this earth, and there is no mention of God having to re-create the earth again after the flood of Noah's day. God's future consuming fire event won't literally turn the earth into a Sci-Fi movie asteroid belt either. And the Zechariah 14 reign by Lord Jesus is one major proof of it; so are the Ezekiel temple chapters of Ezekiel 40 through 48 which are all future involving this earth. Lot of strong meat there, I hope you take your time and chew on it brother.

The "world that was" in 2 Pet 3 was the world before the Flood of Noah. That is the only world wide Flood that has ever occurred. The rebellion of Satan occurred during or before Adam was in the Garden, and Adam was in the Garden by the end of the 6th day. There was no Flood before that, because the waters above the Earth and the waters below the Earth were still intact while Adam was in the Garden.

You are correct that the Flood did not literally destroy the Earth, but it did destroy all land animal life on Earth at the time.

God's consuming fire will literally exterminate all matter, time, space, energy: everything that is the physical universe. It will not become a "Sci-Fi movie asteroid belt". It will cease to exist. And a new heaven and Earth will be created in its place.

The things that can be shaken in Heb 12:25-29 are the things of this creation. The things of the spiritual realm are the things that cannot be shaken. The Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom not of this world, cannot and will not be shaken. But everything that is of this creation, not only the Earth, but also the first two heavens (sky and "space") will not only be shaken, but completely removed.

 

[Studyman]

You stated, "I belong to the group of believers that Paul and Abraham partook of. As a result, "I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

Interesting, you got my curiosity peaked. What exactly are you saying here? - are you part of any denomination or group of people professing the Christian faith?

Most every religious sect, business or Corporation in this world "Profess" Christian Faith. But the Jesus of the Bible went out of His Way to warn me, through Scriptures, to take heed specifically regarding those "Many" who "Call Him Lord, or "Come in His Name".

It seems foolish to me, to risk the life of my family and myself, by choosing between the many religious businesses and philosophies both Jesus and Paul warned about, which exist in the world God placed me in, and hope I picked the right one. Especially when we have examples of those Faithful members of God's Church given us in Scriptures as an example of true faith, not to mention the Christ Himself, who didn't succumb to the religious tradition of this world, of choosing a religious business or sect, even when so many others did.

So for this reason, I have not adopted this world's religious sects, or the Philosophies and traditions they promote.

I'm pretty sure you understand what I'm asking you here. You certainly aren't obligated answer my questions, you are free to hide your affiliation if you so choose [that is ... if you actually have any affiliation whatsover]. God Bless!

I don't hide my "affiliation", I belong to the Church of God that Saul and the Pharisees, and other religious sects persecuted from Abel, to Caleb, to Zacharias Peter and Cornelious, and so many more.

I just have chosen, as a result of study, to place my Faith in God to reveal Himself through Scriptures, as Paul teaches the Body of Christ.

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


I am blessed to have found several other families who believe the same. I think it is referred to by the Jesus of the Bible as "Little Flock".

 

[Rapture Bound]

Most every religious sect, business or Corporation in this world "Profess" Christian Faith. But the Jesus of the Bible went out of His Way to warn me, through Scriptures, to take heed specifically regarding those "Many" who "Call Him Lord, or "Come in His Name".

It seems foolish to me, to risk the life of my family and myself, by choosing between the many religious businesses and philosophies both Jesus and Paul warned about, which exist in the world God placed me in, and hope I picked the right one. Especially when we have examples of those Faithful members of God's Church given us in Scriptures as an example of true faith, not to mention the Christ Himself, who didn't succumb to the religious tradition of this world, of choosing a religious business or sect, even when so many others did.

So for this reason, I have not adopted this world's religious sects, or the Philosophies and traditions they promote.





I don't hide my "affiliation", I belong to the Church of God that Saul and the Pharisees, and other religious sects persecuted from Abel, to Caleb, to Zacharias Peter and Cornelious, and so many more.

I just have chosen, as a result of study, to place my Faith in God to reveal Himself through Scriptures, as Paul teaches the Body of Christ.

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


I am blessed to have found several other families who believe the same. I think it is referred to by the Jesus of the Bible as "Little Flock".

o.k. - more simply put ... you belong to a house church. I'm very aware that over the past couple of decades, multitudes have been led out of the denominational churches in the USA to fellowships that meet in homes.

Do you believe all those who are affiliated with a denominational "church" are necessarily unsaved? The reason I ask is because I've know some who have went to that extreme.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

o.k. - more simply put ... you belong to a house church. I'm very aware that over the past couple of decades, multitudes have been led out of the denominational churches in the USA to fellowships that meet in homes.

That's my preference. There are some great preachers, though none I know nearby. But the church model of a preacher with a captive audience is nothing like New Testament meetings of believers. It's great for preaching to the unsaved, but the church is literally the called out, i.e., saints.

My biggest problem with what I call the "theater model" of the church assembly is that if the preacher teaches what I believe to be error, I can't question it. I can meet with the preacher afterward, but I've done that, and it comes to nothing. In a home meeting we can all share our insight into this or that. And if an unbeliever comes into the home meeting, we can share the Gospel.

 

[Rapture Bound]

That's my preference. There are some great preachers, though none I know nearby. But the church model of a preacher with a captive audience is nothing like New Testament meetings of believers. It's great for preaching to the unsaved, but the church is literally the called out, i.e., saints.

My biggest problem with what I call the "theater model" of the church assembly is that if the preacher teaches what I believe to be error, I can't question it. I can meet with the preacher afterward, but I've done that, and it comes to nothing. In a home meeting we can all share our insight into this or that. And if an unbeliever comes into the home meeting, we can share the Gospel.

Great points ... the non-'theater model" is also my preference, but many times it's very difficult for people to locate a good home fellowship in the vicinity in which they live. And yeah, one of the huge problems with denominational churches is that they virtually equate their particular articles of faith on par with the scriptures themselves [including even secondary doctrines ... no questions asked - all must be treated as "Gospel truth"].

In my 40 year journey of following Jesus, I've found that the great downfall and tendency of the "theater model" of the church assembly churches is that they "major in the minors", "and minor in the majors" [minors = secondary doctrine; majors = primary, essential doctrine].

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Great points ... the non-'theater model" is also my preference, but many times it's very difficult for people to locate a good home fellowship in the vicinity in which they live. And yeah, one of the huge problems with denominational churches is that they virtually equate their particular articles of faith on par with the scriptures themselves [including even secondary doctrines ... no questions asked - all must be treated as "Gospel truth"].

In my 40 year journey of following Jesus, I've found that the great downfall and tendency of the "theater model" of the church assembly churches is that they "major in the minors", "and minor in the majors" [minors = secondary doctrine; majors = primary, essential doctrine].

I recommend the book "Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices". It's not a perfect book but it contains a lot of history about how "church" became the "theater model".

If there was a church nearby with a preacher on par with John MacArthur or the late R.C. Sproul or even the very late Spurgeon (may they rest in sleep), I'd go along with the theater model just to hear the teaching. But at every church I've visited it is just regurgitated doctrine with barely any Scriptural basis.

 

[dwight92070]

Revelation 19:11 If John is standing in heaven, then he wouldn't need to see "heaven opened" because he is already there. It seems more likely that he is standing on earth and the Lord is giving him a glimpse of what is happening in heaven in the spiritual "world", while the gospel is being preached throughout the physical world. He also sees, while on earth, the "silhouette" of an angel in the sun in verse 17. Regarding verses 19-21, you are correct - I will have to study that more. But in my studies so far, I cannot see how a 1000 year reign of Christ after His 2nd Coming happens either here on earth or in heaven. He is already reigning in heaven at the right hand of God, so what would make a specific 1000 year period in heaven different? I know that we both believe that the 1000 years is a symbolic number.

I recommend the book "Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices". It's not a perfect book but it contains a lot of history about how "church" became the "theater model".

If there was a church nearby with a preacher on par with John MacArthur or the late R.C. Sproul or even the very late Spurgeon (may they rest in sleep), I'd go along with the theater model just to hear the teaching. But at every church I've visited it is just regurgitated doctrine with barely any Scriptural basis.

I recommend the book "Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices". It's not a perfect book but it contains a lot of history about how "church" became the "theater model".

If there was a church nearby with a preacher on par with John MacArthur or the late R.C. Sproul or even the very late Spurgeon (may they rest in sleep), I'd go along with the theater model just to hear the teaching. But at every church I've visited it is just regurgitated doctrine with barely any Scriptural basis.

MacArthur, Sproul, and Spurgeon all regurgitate Calvin's false teaching and at least MacArthur regurgitates Darby's false teaching - not sure about the other two on Darby. Once you have a church building, you almost automatically have all the trappings of the traditional church model, with a CEO pastor and all his board members, elders, deacons, a never ending process of paying off the building, a need for maintenance men, and a cleaning crew - a need for nursery workers and Sunday school teachers for all ages, so you can actually use all the rooms in the church, a need for assistant pastors if the church gets big, a need for a youth pastor, a finance director, a counseling team, a children's ministry and children's church, don't forget a worship team, a choir and choir director, some kind of missionary support team,, a constant push to fill the building to capacity, then you buy a bigger building and start all over. With a CEO type pastor, he has his own little kingdom - yes, HE is the KING, not Jesus. The pastors and the worship team become our idols (not Jesus), with the Hollywood looks and clothes, entertaining us just like we're at a concert.
Did you notice there are NO church buildings mentioned in the early church? Only homes where believers met? I've been part of a homechurch for 22 years now. We don't need all those distractions and headaches. In fact, in the above list, only elders, which Biblically are pastors, and deacons are mentioned in the Bible. ALL the other positions are total distractions and/or dead weight. You could actually start a homechurch in your home.
When Jesus said, "I will build My church", He wasn't talking about a building.
Did you know that children can actually be taught to sit quietly with their family and listen to the pastor teach? They DON'T need to be separated by age into Sunday school classes, as if they're in public school. If they don't understand something, they can ask their parents or even the pastor after church. What a concept. What about socializing with other kids? How about inviting another family with kids over for lunch? Nor do our kids NEED a youth pastor, who oftentimes is not even as mature as those he is "teaching". Also did you know that MOST Sunday school "teachers"and/or youth pastors do not have the gift of teaching that the Bible mentions? Romans 12:7; Ephesians 4:11. Just because a person may be a teacher in a secular setting, that does NOT mean they have the Biblical gift of teaching. Also many of them know very little about the Bible. So when we herd our kids off to Sunday school, or youth group, almost always they're not getting the Bible teaching they need, and many times they're forced into groups of kids, who are not the Christian kids you want your kids to socialize with. Am I concerned about lost kids? Of course I am, but the church is not an evangelistic field specifically to reach the lost. It's a teaching and training ground for those who are already Christians or are at least open to becoming a believer. Many churches mistakenly think that their main purpose is to get people saved. That's not what the Bible says. The main purpose of the church is to help Christians grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. People getting saved is a welcome by-product of that, but should never be the main goal. If churches mainly focus on the lost, then the saved people there will not get the teaching, comfort, and encouragement and fellowship that we all desperately need. Jesus said, "LOVE ONE ANOTHER."

 

[dwight92070]

This is probably true. But an even more important reason, I believe, is that God does not want Satan to know the exact timing of these things. That is why even Christ did not know the time of His second coming; because if He knew it, then Satan could know it. And if Satan knew the time of his destruction, he would ramp up his assault against the Church to match the end he saw coming.

Excellent point!

 

[Rapture Bound]

I recommend the book "Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices". It's not a perfect book but it contains a lot of history about how "church" became the "theater model".

If there was a church nearby with a preacher on par with John MacArthur or the late R.C. Sproul or even the very late Spurgeon (may they rest in sleep), I'd go along with the theater model just to hear the teaching. But at every church I've visited it is just regurgitated doctrine with barely any Scriptural basis.

"I recommend the book "Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices". It's not a perfect book but it contains a lot of history about how "church" became the "theater model".

Yes, I've read that book many years ago ... many great points in it.

"If there was a church nearby with a preacher on par with John MacArthur or the late R.C. Sproul or even the very late Spurgeon (may they rest in sleep), I'd go along with the theater model just to hear the teaching. But at every church I've visited it is just regurgitated doctrine with barely any Scriptural basis."

Well, I don't agree with MacArthur's 5- point Calvinist Predestination view, but otherwise he does deliver much solid Bible for the most part in my opinion. However, in order not to be too hard on MacArthur, let me add that, in my opinion, the vast majority of preachers/teachers gets it wrong on the issue of predestination [i.e. - election to salvation] ... it's simply a very complex issue. But with that said, if there was a church nearby with a preacher that consistently and uncompromisingly upheld the essential doctrines of Christianity and allowed for the exercise of free speech, that is, granted people the right to question/discuss secondary doctrines ... I'd also go along with the "theater model" of the ecclesia.

Unfortunately, I've witnessed over and over again, leadership that has consistently over-stepped the boundaries of their office/authority resulting in much pain to those who are seeking after Christ. This is certainly not to say that this condition exists in every "institutional church"... but unfortunately is the condition of the institutional churches within the proximity of where I live ... sigh.

 

[civic]

This is probably true. But an even more important reason, I believe, is that God does not want Satan to know the exact timing of these things. That is why even Christ did not know the time of His second coming; because if He knew it, then Satan could know it. And if Satan knew the time of his destruction, he would ramp up his assault against the Church to match the end he saw coming.

Why would satan know it if Jesus knew it that doesn't make sense to me. satan doesn't know everything Jesus knows. Can you explain thanks !

 

[Doug Brents]

Why would satan know it if Jesus knew it that doesn't make sense to me. satan doesn't know everything Jesus knows. Can you explain thanks !

I believe that Satan and his angels and demons can see into the thoughts of a person. I don't think they know the inmost man the way God does, but they can hear our thoughts, and interact with our mind on a subconscious level. This is how they know our desires and weaknesses, and know how to tempt each of us at our greatest point of weakness.

So, if Jesus, as a man, could know, then Satan could know.

 

[civic]

I believe that Satan and his angels and demons can see into the thoughts of a person. I don't think they know the inmost man the way God does, but they can hear our thoughts, and interact with our mind on a subconscious level. This is how they know our desires and weaknesses, and know how to tempt each of us at our greatest point of weakness.

So, if Jesus, as a man, could know, then Satan could know.

I don't read any of that in the bible except Jesus knowing a mans thoughts and what is in a mans heart because He is God.

 

[DavP]

The "world that was" in 2 Pet 3 was the world before the Flood of Noah. That is the only world wide Flood that has ever occurred. The rebellion of Satan occurred during or before Adam was in the Garden, and Adam was in the Garden by the end of the 6th day. There was no Flood before that, because the waters above the Earth and the waters below the Earth were still intact while Adam was in the Garden.

That's the popular notion about 2 Peter 3, but the following is about the condition of the earth at Genesis 1:2-9 with waters overspread all of it, "... that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" The phrase, "by the word of God the heavens were of old", is about Genesis 1:1 when God first created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. Peter is actually revealing 3 world earth ages:

1. "the world that then was"
2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now"
3. "new heavens and a new earth"

Per Ezekiel 28 God gave a parable where He uses the prince and king of Tyrus to point to Satan. He showed that He originally created Satan perfect in his ways, before iniquity was found in him, and he rebelled in coveting God's throne. That was in that 'world that then was' when Satan was perfect and followed God at His Altar as the anointed cherub that covereth. And of course that was way... before Adam and Eve. By the time Satan shows up in God's Garden as 'that old serpent', tempting Eve, he had already rebelled long before that and was established as the tempter and adversary.

You are correct that the Flood did not literally destroy the Earth, but it did destroy all land animal life on Earth at the time.

God's consuming fire will literally exterminate all matter, time, space, energy: everything that is the physical universe. It will not become a "Sci-Fi movie asteroid belt". It will cease to exist. And a new heaven and Earth will be created in its place.

God's consuming fire will not literally destroy the whole earth, but will only wipe its surface. Per the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, when Jesus returns, which will be the "day of the Lord" when 2 Peter 3:10 is to happen, notice that Rev.11 Scripture says that all the kingdoms of this world then become the kingdoms of The Father and His Son. Where do you think those kingdoms will be when Jesus takes reign, in outer space? No, of course not, that's a silly idea.

And if space were destroyed at that event, where would Jesus and His reign over the nations from? Like I said, you shouldn't just throw away that Zechariah 14 chapter which is about the time of Christ's future coming on the "day of the Lord", and thereafter with His future reign over the nations upon this still existing earth.

The things that can be shaken in Heb 12:25-29 are the things of this creation. The things of the spiritual realm are the things that cannot be shaken. The Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom not of this world, cannot and will not be shaken. But everything that is of this creation, not only the Earth, but also the first two heavens (sky and "space") will not only be shaken, but completely removed.

The things shaken Paul points to are man's works, which is what Apostle Peter pointed to being burned up in 2 Peter 3:10. Also, the word "elements" in 2 Peter 3:12 does not mean earthly matter. It is the Greek word stoicheion, which means 'an orderly arrangement, a serial' (NT:4747). It is pointing to a world order, i.e., this 2nd world earth age time.

And when Paul in Hebrews 12 quoted God as saying, "Yet once more, I shake not the earth only, but also heaven", God was pointing to a previous time when He shook this old earth, and it was not at the flood of Noah's day. It was long before Noah, and even long before Adam and Eve. It was when Satan first rebelled, and God ended that 1st world earth age. If you don't understand this, then you won't understand God's parable about Satan in Ezekiel 28, nor Isaiah 14, and definitely not what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 8:18-25 about God having placed today's present creation in bondage to corruption. The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture will also be a mystery to you.

Even the following point you will have missed...

Zech 14:1-3
14 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
KJV

Modern Bible versions try to remove the past tense of that above "as when he fought in the day of battle" phrase. Even the NKJV changed it.

But what previous battle is that pointing to that Christ fought before this event of His 2nd coming here? Some try to say it was against Pharaoh and his army, but that's a small army compared to this battle against the nations gathered against Jerusalem on the last day, which is what timing this Zechariah 14 event is pointing to.

The previous "day of battle" being referred to that Christ fought was about the time when Satan and his angels rebelled against God in that old world. Rev.12:3-4 reveals that Satan had a previous beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns when one third of the angels ("stars") rebelled with him in that 1st world earth age. The beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 is to have ten crowns instead and is for the very end of this world.

So if you don't understand about that 1st world earth age before Satan rebelled and thereafter, then you will have missed many Truths in God's Word.

 

[DavP]

In a home meeting we can all share our insight into this or that. And if an unbeliever comes into the home meeting, we can share the Gospel.

And basically, that's what we are doing here.

So while Satan's workers have devised the Internet to promote filth and propaganda, God has made some use of it for His purpose to spread The Gospel and help believers to study His Word to a deeper level. Now if only brethren would protect the new babe in Christ from the modern Bible revisionist that are trying to create Newspeak with God's written Word.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't read any of that in the bible except Jesus knowing a mans thoughts and what is in a mans heart because He is God.

You are correct about Jesus being God, but His knowing man's thoughts was because the Holy Spirit gave Him that insight in some cases, not in every case (I don't believe). Christ had given up (emptied Himself) of the independent usage of His power and authority as God. But the Holy Spirit gave to Him (as He did to the Apostles and Prophets) the power of God.
On the topic of the demon's ability to see into our thoughts, I may be totally off base. This is just my understanding at this point in my life. Scripture is silent on it for the most part, other than to say that even the Son did not know the time of His return, but only the Father.

 

[Doug Brents]

That's the popular notion about 2 Peter 3, but the following is about the condition of the earth at Genesis 1:2-9 with waters overspread all of it, "... that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" The phrase, "by the word of God the heavens were of old", is about Genesis 1:1 when God first created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

I see what you are saying. At Creation, the Earth was created with no land above the surface of the water, and so there was a "worldwide flood" if you will. But there was no life yet created at that point, so it was a moot point.

Peter is actually revealing 3 world earth ages:

1. "the world that then was"

Was the world that was before the Flood of Noah

2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now"

The revitalized and repopulated world we now live in.

3. "new heavens and a new earth"

Which will come into being after this Creation is destroyed.

Per Ezekiel 28 God gave a parable where He uses the prince and king of Tyrus to point to Satan. He showed that He originally created Satan perfect in his ways, before iniquity was found in him, and he rebelled in coveting God's throne. That was in that 'world that then was' when Satan was perfect and followed God at His Altar as the anointed cherub that covereth. And of course that was way... before Adam and Eve.

Not so. Satan was the guardian cherub set to guard and protect God's most precious and cherished possession: MAN!

By the time Satan shows up in God's Garden as 'that old serpent', tempting Eve, he had already rebelled long before that and was established as the tempter and adversary.

Yes, between being set up as man's protector and tempting man as the serpent, Satan rebelled. But was the temptation of man the point at which he decided to rebel? We are not told. Only that he did rebel. And that occurred between being set up as guardian and the fall of Man.

God's consuming fire will not literally destroy the whole earth, but will only wipe its surface. Per the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, when Jesus returns, which will be the "day of the Lord" when 2 Peter 3:10 is to happen, notice that Rev.11 Scripture says that all the kingdoms of this world then become the kingdoms of The Father and His Son. Where do you think those kingdoms will be when Jesus takes reign, in outer space? No, of course not, that's a silly idea.

No, "outer space" will cease to exist as well. Rev 20:11 says that not only the Earth, but also the heavens (the first (Earth's atmosphere) and second (the rest of the universe where the moon and stars are) heaven) will not exist because "no place was found for them."

And if space were destroyed at that event, where would Jesus and His reign over the nations from?

Heaven!

Like I said, you shouldn't just throw away that Zechariah 14 chapter which is about the time of Christ's future coming on the "day of the Lord", and thereafter with His future reign over the nations upon this still existing earth.

Zech 14 is not about what to us is still future. That is talking about the time between His resurrection and AD70.

The things shaken Paul points to are man's works, which is what Apostle Peter pointed to being burned up in 2 Peter 3:10. Also, the word "elements" in 2 Peter 3:12 does not mean earthly matter. It is the Greek word stoicheion, which means 'an orderly arrangement, a serial' (NT:4747). It is pointing to a world order, i.e., this 2nd world earth age time.

I disagree. Not only will the works of man be destroyed, but also the heavens (again, first and second heavens) will be destroyed as per 2 Pet 3:12.

And when Paul in Hebrews 12 quoted God as saying, "Yet once more, I shake not the earth only, but also heaven", God was pointing to a previous time when He shook this old earth, and it was not at the flood of Noah's day. It was long before Noah, and even long before Adam and Eve.

There was only 5 days between the creation of all things and Adam and Eve being created.

It was when Satan first rebelled, and God ended that 1st world earth age. If you don't understand this, then you won't understand God's parable about Satan in Ezekiel 28, nor Isaiah 14, and definitely not what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 8:18-25 about God having placed today's present creation in bondage to corruption. The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture will also be a mystery to you.

Not at all. Those are not difficult to understand.

Even the following point you will have missed...

Zech 14:1-3
14 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
KJV

Modern Bible versions try to remove the past tense of that above "as when he fought in the day of battle" phrase. Even the NKJV changed it.

But what previous battle is that pointing to that Christ fought before this event of His 2nd coming here? Some try to say it was against Pharaoh and his army, but that's a small army compared to this battle against the nations gathered against Jerusalem on the last day, which is what timing this Zechariah 14 event is pointing to.

The previous "day of battle" being referred to that Christ fought was about the time when Satan and his angels rebelled against God in that old world. Rev.12:3-4 reveals that Satan had a previous beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns when one third of the angels ("stars") rebelled with him in that 1st world earth age. The beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 is to have ten crowns instead and is for the very end of this world.

All of this is pointing to what has come to pass (and may yet be coming, we can't be sure) between the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and today. This is not pointing back to some fictitious existence between creation and Adam's creation.

So if you don't understand about that 1st world earth age before Satan rebelled and thereafter, then you will have missed many Truths in God's Word.

No, those truths are not pointing to some earlier age. They are speaking of things that have happened and are happening in the last 2000 years.