Could it be happening now ?

[Studyman]

You love the phrases: Your religion, a popular religious claim, a religious philosophy, this world's religions, the religion you are now promoting, this religion you have adopted, etc. So by using these phrases you're admitting that you have a different religion from me, simply because I do not agree with you.

In this world that God placed me in, there are many, many religious sects and businesses, who come in Christ's Name. They all promote different doctrines and philosophies. And they all have their own high days, their own judgments and their own righteousness. They all "Transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions".

RCC, Baptists, SDA, JW, LDS, Protestant, Nondenominational, AOG, the list goes on and on and on.

This is simply undeniable truth. I advocate for the Study of the Holy Scriptures apart from the influence, traditions and philosophies of all of this world's religions, like Jesus and Paul teaches. You are offended because you have chosen one of this world's religions, and the Scriptures I post bring question to their religious philosophy you are promoting. What you are refusing to accept, is that the same Scriptures which offend you and the exposes the Philosophy you are promoting, offends and exposes the religions and those who YOU judge as members of a cult.

You know, I disagree with several people on this forum. But I would not condemn them for having a different religion other than Christianity.
I would not condemn them for following this world's religious philosophy. I would not condemn them as deceivers who listen to the voice of the serpent, as Eve did.

LOL, if you could only look in a mirror.

"I have found that many who think they have a different religion than I do are often a member of a cult - Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc. These cults and those who believe them are right in saying that they have a different religion than I do, because they are not Biblical Christianity."

There is a common psychological practice called "Projection".

"Projection is a type of psychological defense mechanism. When people project, they identify their negative emotions, beliefs, or traits onto someone else. People project to protect themselves from uncomfortable inner conflict and anxiety, but the behavior can interfere with all types of relationships and situations."

One of the written benefits of the Lord's Sabbath Fast that Jesus said was made for man, is mentioned in Is. 58.

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

You might consider this treatment the Christ "of the Bible" prescribes.


One religion, who comes in Christ's Name, that "transgresses God's Commandments by their own tradition" is no different than another religion that comes in Christ's Name, that "transgresses God's commandments by their own tradition".

Only in the wicked imagination of man's heart, does a difference exist.

Rather, I would try to tell them what the Bible does, the truth. You have condemned me for supposedly following this world's popular, religious claims and philosophy and for listening to the serpent's voice. I have done none of that.
If you want to disagree with me - have at it, as many here have done - but stop your snide, demeaning, condemnation of me, as if I was an evil, false prophet, attempting to send people to hell.

A disagreement, with no explanation as to why, is pretty useless, in my view. Jesus Loved the mainstream preachers of His Time by pointing out, through Scriptures, that the religious philosophy they had adopted and were promoting, was causing harm to all who adopted it. They were offended just as you are.

Sometimes God's Love offends.

Again, your abrasive, condemning attitude towards this Christian, puts off a foul aroma (2 Corinthian 2:15-16) and simply identifies your doctrine as not something to be followed. You accuse me of not caring. You are right, I do not care for your bad attitude, nor for your bad doctrine.

I prefer to call myself a follower of Jesus, the religion I espouse is Christianity. Since you have a different religion than I, you must have a religion that is not Christianity. What religion do espouse? I have found that many who think they have a different religion than I do are often a member of a cult - Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc. These cults and those who believe them are right in saying that they have a different religion than I do, because they are not Biblical Christianity.

Here's an interesting concept: you can actually count the number of commandments in the Law. There are lists of all 613 online. There are 2 in Genesis, 110 in Exodus, 243 in Leviticus, 58 in numbers, and 200 in Deuteronomy. That totals 613! Surprise! Is it possible that 1 law is counted as 10? Maybe, I have not gone through the whole list.

However I did look at Leviticus 18 about uncovering the nakedness of any blood relative, about which you wrote. God didn't leave it up to the Israelites to define "any blood relative". He specified exactly who they were, whose nakedness the Israelite's should not uncover. And yes, each separate individual named was counted as a separate law. So God Himself was responsible for what you call "a deceptive tactic". How dare He give a separate commandment for each of the blood relatives? Apparently, according to your religion, God is a Tyrant for placing an unbearable yoke on the necks of the Israelites. According to those who follow Jesus, Christians, God makes His commandments so clear, that there can be no excuse for the Israelites violating them. By the way, there are close to 1050 commandments in the New Testament. Is Jesus placing an unbearable yoke on those of us who follow Him? No, I don't think so.

And yes, I DO PROMOTE the religion of the New Testament called Christianity, which is comprised of the disciples of Jesus. What religion do you promote? So, once again, your religion is exposed as untrue, and your claim found to be false by the Scriptures themselves?

LOL,

Thank you for another spirit filled reply.

 

[Studyman]

David had a man killed to get to a women and the resulting son ruled Israel.

Grace is in view. Mercy is in view. The Scriptures teach Grace and Mercy from God.

Like all who invoke David's sin to justify their own, you refuse to include an important part of this story. God was angry in large part, "because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme".

And to this day religious men invoke David's sin as justification of their own by implying that "see, David sinned, and God didn't destroy him?, now that's Grace". What you leave out, as most do, is what this transgression cost David? It cost him his own son. I don't know if you have children, but I do, and this was a punishment you would not wish on others, not even an enemy.

David also lost his Kingdom. He was humiliated in front of all Israel in a humiliation that most men could not endure, after suffering the loss of his son. Why do this world's religious men, who come in Christ's Name, always bring up the Sin, but not the punishment?

Even though God never mentioned this sin again in the entire Bible, religious men must keep reminding us that David sinned, and God Spared him, in order to justify their own religion. And none of the obedient, amazingly faithful works of David are mentioned. In fact, in our discussions, this is the first time you invoked David's name, and that to justify yourself.

I know we will not agree on things Spiritual. It is to be expected. But for your sake, I hope you might consider what really happened with David in the story God had written for our admonition and consider why not ONE person in the Old or New Testament, not God, not the Prophets, not Jesus or the Disciples, EVER ONCE mentioned again what God forgave. And stop throwing His Transgression around as if it were a get out of jail free card.

It sends chills down my spine every time I see people use this occasion to justify sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Like all who invoke David's sin to justify their own, you refuse to include an important part of this story. God was angry in large part, "because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme".

Edited. I never used it once to justify my sin. You have no authority nor place to deal with my sin. Zero. Stop pretending you do.

God blessed David even when he sinned. Which is what God has done for every man.

David also lost his Kingdom. He was humiliated in front of all Israel in a humiliation that most men could not endure, after suffering the loss of his son. Why do this world's religious men, who come in Christ's Name, always bring up the Sin, but not the punishment?

I never ignored God's punishment. David said "My sin is ever before me". Do you think I'm ignoring David's sin.

However, David should have died for his sin. I suppose you don't recognize Grace and Mercy when you see it.

I know we will not agree on things Spiritual. It is to be expected. But for your sake, I hope you might consider what really happened with David in the story God had written for our admonition and consider why not ONE person in the Old or New Testament, not God, not the Prophets, not Jesus or the Disciples, EVER ONCE mentioned again what God forgave. And stop throwing His Transgression around as if it were a get out of jail free card.

It sends chills down my spine every time I see people use this occasion to justify sin.

Self righteousness nonsense on your part. I've lived the life of David. Blessed. Mercy. Grace. I've suffered for sin but NEVER to the point I deserved or merited.

Which is why I appeal to Grace and Mercy while your pompous spirit still insist you're different. I know better. You can keep pretend you're different all you want. Have at it.

 

[dwight92070]

In this world that God placed me in, there are many, many religious sects and businesses, who come in Christ's Name. They all promote different doctrines and philosophies. And they all have their own high days, their own judgments and their own righteousness. They all "Transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions".

RCC, Baptists, SDA, JW, LDS, Protestant, Nondenominational, AOG, the list goes on and on and on.

This is simply undeniable truth. I advocate for the Study of the Holy Scriptures apart from the influence, traditions and philosophies of all of this world's religions, like Jesus and Paul teaches. You are offended because you have chosen one of this world's religions, and the Scriptures I post bring question to their religious philosophy you are promoting. What you are refusing to accept, is that the same Scriptures which offend you and the exposes the Philosophy you are promoting, offends and exposes the religions and those who YOU judge as members of a cult.



LOL, if you could only look in a mirror.

"I have found that many who think they have a different religion than I do are often a member of a cult - Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc. These cults and those who believe them are right in saying that they have a different religion than I do, because they are not Biblical Christianity."

There is a common psychological practice called "Projection".

"Projection is a type of psychological defense mechanism. When people project, they identify their negative emotions, beliefs, or traits onto someone else. People project to protect themselves from uncomfortable inner conflict and anxiety, but the behavior can interfere with all types of relationships and situations."

One of the written benefits of the Lord's Sabbath Fast that Jesus said was made for man, is mentioned in Is. 58.

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

You might consider this treatment the Christ "of the Bible" prescribes.


One religion, who comes in Christ's Name, that "transgresses God's Commandments by their own tradition" is no different than another religion that comes in Christ's Name, that "transgresses God's commandments by their own tradition".

Only in the wicked imagination of man's heart, does a difference exist.



A disagreement, with no explanation as to why, is pretty useless, in my view. Jesus Loved the mainstream preachers of His Time by pointing out, through Scriptures, that the religious philosophy they had adopted and were promoting, was causing harm to all who adopted it. They were offended just as you are.

Sometimes God's Love offends.




LOL,

Thank you for another spirit filled reply.

Studyman -In this world that God placed me in, there are many, many religious sects and businesses, who come in Christ's Name. They all promote different doctrines and philosophies. And they all have their own high days, their own judgments and their own righteousness. They all "Transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions".

RCC, Baptists, SDA, JW, LDS, Protestant, Nondenominational, AOG, the list goes on and on and on.

Dwight -You're sounding more and more like Joseph Smith who said that God told him that ALL these denominations are an abomination to Him. But only what God revealed to him was the truth. Apparently, you, Studyman, are the only one who has the truth - all the rest of us are deceived. Or do you belong to some group who believes the same things you do. Actually I doubt if you could get another person to believe what you do. But if such a group exists, who are they? Or are you keeping that a secret? You still have not identified what religion or denomination you belong to.

Studyman - This is simply undeniable truth. I advocate for the Study of the Holy Scriptures apart from the influence, traditions and philosophies of all of this world's religions, like Jesus and Paul teaches.

Dwight - As if nobody else does that? In other words, you're unteachable, because you deny that there is such a church that is not influenced by the philosophies of other religions in the world. You are wrong. Jesus and Paul both advocated sitting under the teaching of gifted teachers in the body of Christ. But apparently you're above that.

Dwight -If you're a loner, the only one who believes what you do, then you are violating scripture right there. There's no such thing as a lone Christian, or do you even use the Biblical term "Christian", which means a disciple of Jesus. If there is nobody else who believes what you do, then how can you obey Jesus' command to "Love one another"?

You are offended because you have chosen one of this world's religions, and the Scriptures I post bring question to their religious philosophy you are promoting.

 

[Administrator]

Tone this down a little bit guys. It doesn't make Jesus look good when we attack each other. Once again feel free to post what you believe and allow others to do the same.

 

[Studyman]

Edited. I never used it once to justify my sin. You have no authority nor place to deal with my sin. Zero. Stop pretending you do.

It seems as if you are making light of Davids sin. "David had a man killed to get to a women and the resulting son ruled Israel".

David didn't get another son "because David had a man killed to get his wife". David was given another chance because he confessed and repented from the heart, and never sinned like this ever again. At least this is what the Scriptures seems to promote.

David's son didn't rule Israel, "because David had a man killed to get his wife". David was promised a son on the throne long before this transgression. David was given another chance because he confessed and repented from the heart, and never sinned like this ever again. That is what repentance is, Yes? Without repentance, there is no Life, that is what Jesus said, Yes? But isn't there still consequences for Sin?

God blessed David even when he sinned.

This is just simply not true, according to what is written. Please consider what the scriptures actually say.

2 Sam. 12: 7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, "because by this deed" thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

What would you say here? That David was Blessed because he sinned?

Is that the message God is showing His People here? I'm sorry, but that is just a very dangerous thing to be promoting to others, in my view.

Which is what God has done for every man.

You think God blesses men because they sin against Him? Or because they Strive against Sinning against Him.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I'm sorry,

WE are told to "Take Heed" and "Beware" of this world's religious Philosophies. This philosophy you promote, which has been promoted by this world's religions since my youth, that the "Blessing" of Grace and Mercy came about to David because David sinned against God, or that Davids sin shows that God blesses people who sin against Him, is simply not supported by Scriptures.

God Blessed David because David chose God's righteousness over his own. And God, even though David's sin gave the enemies of God occasion to blaspheme, spared David, not because of His sin, but because, as God said in 2 Kings 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

And again regarding David's son.

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

And we know what happened to Solomon and this house Solomon built. And the message was not, "God Blesses Men even when they sin against him".

I never ignored God's punishment. David said "My sin is ever before me". Do you think I'm ignoring David's sin. However, David should have died for his sin. I suppose you don't recognize Grace and Mercy when you see it.

Yes, I don't think, given your posts to me, that you even considered the consequence of Davids Sin, not only to him, but to others as well. And that is why you mock those who strive to honor God in obedience, as David did.

Ps. 119: 171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. 172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. 173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. 174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

If David was here, you would mock him, and tell him he can't do these things, that has hasn't chosen God's Precepts, that God's Judgments "Can't help him", just as you do to me. This is why I reply to your posts, to give hope for others who may also believe in this God that Jesus said to know was eternal life.

It's hard to image the deep sorrow and pain had David had in his heart for the shame he brought to God and Israel, and for his family knowing that because of his sin, his son died. But his faith continued, and his desire to be perfect before his God continued as well. Surely he was a man of great faith.

Ps. 51: 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Self righteousness nonsense on your part. I've lived the life of David. Blessed. Mercy. Grace. I've suffered for sin but NEVER to the point I deserved or merited.

You've lived the life of David?

Which is why I appeal to Grace and Mercy while your pompous spirit still insist you're different. I know better. You can keep pretend you're different all you want. Have at it.

I don't think I'm different, only that I believe differently. I struggle with pride, and was a fighter in my youth, a cross I bear daily, and certainly struggle with.

Thanks for the discussion, this story of David is an important one, and dear to my heart.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It seems as if you are making light of Davids sin. "David had a man killed to get to a women and the resulting son ruled Israel".

David didn't get another son "because David had a man killed to get his wife". David was given another chance because he confessed and repented from the heart, and never sinned like this ever again. At least this is what the Scriptures seems to promote.

David's son didn't rule Israel, "because David had a man killed to get his wife". David was promised a son on the throne long before this transgression. David was given another chance because he confessed and repented from the heart, and never sinned like this ever again. That is what repentance is, Yes? Without repentance, there is no Life, that is what Jesus said, Yes? But isn't there still consequences for Sin?





This is just simply not true, according to what is written. Please consider what the scriptures actually say.

2 Sam. 12: 7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, "because by this deed" thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

What would you say here? That David was Blessed because he sinned?

Is that the message God is showing His People here? I'm sorry, but that is just a very dangerous thing to be promoting to others, in my view.



You think God blesses men because they sin against Him? Or because they Strive against Sinning against Him.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I'm sorry,

WE are told to "Take Heed" and "Beware" of this world's religious Philosophies. This philosophy you promote, which has been promoted by this world's religions since my youth, that the "Blessing" of Grace and Mercy came about to David because David sinned against God, or that Davids sin shows that God blesses people who sin against Him, is simply not supported by Scriptures.

God Blessed David because David chose God's righteousness over his own. And God, even though David's sin gave the enemies of God occasion to blaspheme, spared David, not because of His sin, but because, as God said in 2 Kings 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

And again regarding David's son.

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

And we know what happened to Solomon and this house Solomon built. And the message was not, "God Blesses Men even when they sin against him".



Yes, I don't think, given your posts to me, that you even considered the consequence of Davids Sin, not only to him, but to others as well. And that is why you mock those who strive to honor God in obedience, as David did.

Ps. 119: 171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. 172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. 173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. 174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

If David was here, you would mock him, and tell him he can't do these things, that has hasn't chosen God's Precepts, that God's Judgments "Can't help him", just as you do to me. This is why I reply to your posts, to give hope for others who may also believe in this God that Jesus said to know was eternal life.

It's hard to image the deep sorrow and pain had David had in his heart for the shame he brought to God and Israel, and for his family knowing that because of his sin, his son died. But his faith continued, and his desire to be perfect before his God continued as well. Surely he was a man of great faith.

Ps. 51: 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.



You've lived the life of David?



I don't think I'm different, only that I believe differently. I struggle with pride, and was a fighter in my youth, a cross I bear daily, and certainly struggle with.

Thanks for the discussion, this story of David is an important one, and dear to my heart.

Sure you do. You most definitely think you're different. Did David sin worse than you have?

It amazes me that I mentioned what David said about his sin being ever before him and yet you claim I'm diminishing his sin. I'm not. You are actually the one diminishing his sin in comparison to your own. You are equally guilty.

Why yes. I have lived a blessed life compared to my sin. I should be dead. David should have died. You should be dead. I'm not dead. You are not dead. David did not die. As I said. You prefer to exhaust the sin of others while ignoring being equally guilty yourself.

 

[dwight92070]

Mankind cannot comprehend existence without time. So when I speak of eternity I put it in terms of "time". This Earth has only existed about 6000 years, by my count we are in the year 5926 since Creation. So a thousand year celebration would, in comparison, be a very long time (1/6th the age of creation so far). I do not know how we will perceive the passage of time in Heaven, or even if we will perceive it. I do believe there will be something to measure it against, because Job speaks of "a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord" (Job 1:6), which to me indicates that there will be a structure/schedule by which events are put into order or regulated. But I also believe that time is part of creation, so it will cease when creation is destroyed at the second coming. It may also be part of the New Earth, but there is nothing that says one way or the other.

Revelation 20:4-6 A difficult passage. The last phrase of verse 4 "and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."(Non KJV versions) This is translated "and they lived (or could be lived on) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" in the KJV or the NKJV. The non KJV versions translation supports the pre-millennial idea that they were resurrected from the dead (came to life) and then went into the millennium reigning with Christ. The KJV translation supports the amillennial idea that they lived on after their physical death as souls in heaven, not bodies, because they were born again while on earth, now reigning with Christ. (BOTH are valid possible translations) The amillennial view then is, we are now in the symbolic 1000 year period, which is the entire church age. The first resurrection mentioned in verse 5 is a reference to their new birth (not to the "rest of the dead at the beginning of verse 5) - John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life". Nowhere in scripture do we read of more than ONE PHYSICAL RESURRECTION - not two or more, so this first resurrection mentioned here must refer to their spiritual resurrection or their new birth mentioned in John. Obviously John wrote both Revelation and the book of John, so the idea that being born again is a spiritual resurrection - John 5:24 - is not new to him. "The rest of the dead (unbelievers and believers who have died) did not come to life (physical resurrection) until the thousand years were completed", which is the 2nd Coming of Christ or the Last Day and the ONE and ONLY physical resurrection of ALL believers and non- believers who have died. The resurrection of ALL dead, both good and evil, the rapture of the saints, the judgment of all good and evil, the burning of this heaven and this earth, and the creation of a new heaven and a new earth - ALL occur at His coming. There is NO future millennium. The saints are currently seated with Christ in the heavenlies reigning with Him, Satan is currently bound (Christ rendered him powerless at the cross - He also abolished death) through the preaching and receiving of the gospel.
"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection - the new birth- over these the second death - the lake of fire, has no power, but they will be priests of God (Peter says we are NOW a holy priesthood) and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." - i.e. all believers during the church age. When the thousand years (the church age) are completed, (we're getting close to that now, if we're not already there) Satan will be released for a short time and will come out to deceive the nations. This also may be happening NOW, possibly starting with the global COVID deception. Then Christ will come, and will cast His enemies into the lake of fire, starting with the devil, the beast, and the false prophet and then the rest of the non - believers.

 

[Studyman]

Sure you do. You most definitely think you're different. Did David sin worse than you have?

You keep moving away from discussing what is actually written. Nevertheless, it is a great discussion and a perfect occasion to at least "try" to discuss what God's message for us was, in this story God had written about David, "for our Admonition". So I will continue to address what is actually written. Thank you for offering me the continuing chance to discuss Scriptures God gave us.

It seems that God doesn't judge men by comparing their sins one to another.

Luke 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them,

Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners "above all the Galilaeans", because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

It can be said without doubt that David "Repented" of his sin and never behaved in this manner, ever again. I expect keeping his sin before his eyes was a good way to keep his flesh in check. Which made him "Different", not because he was better than others, or because his sin was "better" or "worse" than others, but because he believed differently than others.

It amazes me that I mentioned what David said about his sin being ever before him and yet you claim I'm diminishing his sin.

There is no doubt you diminish Sin. And you are on record mocking me and shaming me for believing in and striving to walk in God's Judgments and Commandments, just as David did.

To be clear, I don't care that you do. It's completely expected, and Jesus said it would be this way. It's an honor actually for me. But not for you.

"God Blessed David when he sinned". This is your teaching and it is demonstrably false. I posted the Words of God showing what HE did to David when he sinned against Him. But you have yet to even acknowledge them.

And if you really want to know why God Blessed David, why not just believe what God Himself said after HE forgave him?

1 Kings 14: 7 Go, tell Jeroboam, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Forasmuch as I exalted thee from among the people, and made thee prince over my people Israel,

8 And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and yet thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes;

Because you have been taught to shame those whose refuge is the Lord, those who, as David said and you must ignore,

"My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. 172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. 173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. 174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

This is why God spared and blessed David.

Ex. 20: 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Like Faithful David.

I'm not. You are actually the one diminishing his sin in comparison to your own.

It's a perfectly natural carnal instinct to lash out at men who show you uncomfortable truths, especially about their own teaching as the Pharisees example clearly shows. It's the same for a wild animal who falls into a pit. You can pull it out to help it, but it will kick and scratch and bite you the whole time.

You are equally guilty.

Yes, I am equally guilty.

Why yes. I have lived a blessed life compared to my sin. I should be dead. David should have died. You should be dead. I'm not dead. You are not dead. David did not die. As I said. You prefer to exhaust the sin of others while ignoring being equally guilty yourself.

You have your religion, I'm sticking to the Holy Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection "of the dead", both of the just and unjust.



Thanks for another opportunity to share God's Word with you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Revelation 20:4-6 A difficult passage. The last phrase of verse 4 "and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."(Non KJV versions) This is translated "and they lived (or could be lived on) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" in the KJV or the NKJV. The non KJV versions translation supports the pre-millennial idea that they were resurrected from the dead (came to life) and then went into the millennium reigning with Christ. The KJV translation supports the amillennial idea that they lived on after their physical death as souls in heaven, not bodies, because they were born again while on earth, now reigning with Christ. (BOTH are valid possible translations) The amillennial view then is, we are now in the symbolic 1000 year period, which is the entire church age.

I have not really looked at the pre-, post-, a-, etc. views. I have looked at Scripture and constructed what I believe fits Scripture. Since the 1000 years does not begin until after the second coming of Christ, we cannot be in the 1000 years now.

The first resurrection mentioned in verse 5 is a reference to their new birth (not to the "rest of the dead at the beginning of verse 5) - John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life". Nowhere in scripture do we read of more than ONE PHYSICAL RESURRECTION - not two or more, so this first resurrection mentioned here must refer to their spiritual resurrection or their new birth mentioned in John.

I disagree. The first resurrection is not the "new birth" that occurs during baptism and is referred to as "salvation". The first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years which begins after the second coming, and includes only those who are justified, to include those who have been martyred (so it cannot be referring to the "new birth").
(My use of quotation marks is just to emphasize words, not to cast doubt or denigrate the words or concepts indicated).

Obviously John wrote both Revelation and the book of John, so the idea that being born again is a spiritual resurrection - John 5:24 - is not new to him. "The rest of the dead (unbelievers and believers who have died) did not come to life (physical resurrection) until the thousand years were completed", which is the 2nd Coming of Christ or the Last Day and the ONE and ONLY physical resurrection of ALL believers and non- believers who have died.

Sorry, but "the rest of the dead" are only the unbelievers. The believers are those who did not worship the beast, his image, or receive his mark. If one did any of those things, he was not a believer, and so will stand condemned at Judgement. So all of the believers were resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years. Forgive me, but I am having a moment here. I just came to a realization that changes some things in my understanding. I have always read in Rev 20:11 that the universe had already been destroyed, but it just hit me that this may be the point at which the universe is destroyed, after the 1000 years. This changes my understanding of where the 1000 years takes place, but not who is a part of it, nor what it is about (the wedding celebration of Christ and the Church). I am not sure if this will be a "physical" resurrection, a spiritual resurrection, or if it will be the resurrection that puts us in our NEW bodies as described in 1 Cor 15:25-54 ready for the New Earth that is to come.

The resurrection of ALL dead, both good and evil, the rapture of the saints, the judgment of all good and evil, the burning of this heaven and this earth, and the creation of a new heaven and a new earth - ALL occur at His coming. There is NO future millennium. The saints are currently seated with Christ in the heavenlies reigning with Him, Satan is currently bound (Christ rendered him powerless at the cross - He also abolished death) through the preaching and receiving of the gospel.

This is not really true. Satan still roams around the Earth, and has immense power today. He is still the "prince of the air". The millennium is still future because it does not begin until His second coming. The dead saints are currently awaiting their glorification, because they will not be glorified until we join them (Heb 11:39-40). Death has not ceased holding sway over this fallen Earth. Jesus has conquered death, but death will be the last enemy destroyed, and all other enemies have not yet been destroyed.

"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection - the new birth- over these the second death - the lake of fire, has no power, but they will be priests of God (Peter says we are NOW a holy priesthood) and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." - i.e. all believers during the church age. When the thousand years (the church age) are completed, (we're getting close to that now, if we're not already there) Satan will be released for a short time and will come out to deceive the nations. This also may be happening NOW, possibly starting with the global COVID deception. Then Christ will come, and will cast His enemies into the lake of fire, starting with the devil, the beast, and the false prophet and then the rest of the non - believers.

The thousand years cannot be the current Church Age, because it does not begin until after Christ returns. And Christ hasn't returned yet, because everyone on Earth will know about His return without any doubt (Matt 24:26-27).

 

[dwight92070]

Revelation 19:11-18 may not necessarily be the second coming of Christ. In Acts 1:11, two angels said to the apostles: "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
1. Jesus did not leave on a white horse, so why would He return on a white horse?
2. When Jesus left, He was lifted up and a cloud received Him out of their sight (Acts 1:9), but there's no mention of a cloud here, as 1 Thess. 4:17 mentions.
3. It doesn't use the word "comes" as in Mat. 25:31; or "will be revealed from heaven" as in 2 Thess. 1:7; or "at His coming" in 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Thess. 2:19; or "the coming of our Lord Jesus" 1 Thess. 2:19, 3:13, 5:23, 2 Thess. 2:1, or "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess. 4:15, or "the appearance of His coming" as in 2 Thess. 2:8. Also James 5:7 and 8 and 2 Peter 1:16
4. So John saw "heaven opened" in Revelation 19:11, but there's no indication that the Lord was physically coming to the earth.
5. Jesus is called "The Word of God" here, with a sharp sword coming out of His mouth, "so that with it He may strike down the nations, ..." verses 13 and 15. So we know this is symbolism, since He doesn't actually have a sword coming out of His mouth. So this could be the Lord "And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (which are the righteous acts of the saints, so these were believers, not angels), ... following Him on white horses." - going throughout the earth spreading the word of God, which is the sword of the Spirit, and conquering His enemies. Zechariah 10:3 says " ... For the Lord of Hosts has visited His flock, the house of Judah, and will make them like His majestic horse in battle.
6. Then verses 19-21 would apparently be the same thing happening in Rev. 20:7-10

 

[Studyman]

Studyman -In this world that God placed me in, there are many, many religious sects and businesses, who come in Christ's Name. They all promote different doctrines and philosophies. And they all have their own high days, their own judgments and their own righteousness. They all "Transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions".

RCC, Baptists, SDA, JW, LDS, Protestant, Nondenominational, AOG, the list goes on and on and on.

Dwight -You're sounding more and more like Joseph Smith who said that God told him that ALL these denominations are an abomination to Him. But only what God revealed to him was the truth. Apparently, you, Studyman, are the only one who has the truth - all the rest of us are deceived.

I am simply pointing out an undeniable truth of this world God placed me in.

A truth you also promote as your own words expose.

"I have found that many who think they have a different religion than I do "are often a member of a cult" - Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc. These cults and those who believe them are right in saying that they have a different religion than I do, because they are not Biblical Christianity."

The difference between you and I on this front, is that you believe these religions of this world God placed us in, that "transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions", are inferior to you and the Religion of this world that you have adopted, that also "transgresses God's Commandments by their own religious traditions".

It is clear, according to the Jesus "of the Bible", men should take heed of any religion who "transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions", even if they transgress God's commandments, "In His Name".

Or do you belong to some group who believes the same things you do. Actually I doubt if you could get another person to believe what you do. But if such a group exists, who are they? Or are you keeping that a secret? You still have not identified what religion or denomination you belong to.

I belong to the group of believers that Paul and Abraham partook of. As a result, "I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

It's not a religious business or franchise, it's a way of life.

Studyman - This is simply undeniable truth. I advocate for the Study of the Holy Scriptures apart from the influence, traditions and philosophies of all of this world's religions, like Jesus and Paul teaches.

Dwight - As if nobody else does that? In other words, you're unteachable, because you deny that there is such a church that is not influenced by the philosophies of other religions in the world. You are wrong. Jesus and Paul both advocated sitting under the teaching of gifted teachers in the body of Christ. But apparently you're above that.

Gosh no, I'm not above the Gifted teachers that God Chose to write about HIM in the Holy Scriptures. Both in the Law and Prophets, and in the Testimony. I believe and follow those Words. I trust their words and have submitted to them. It's man's preaching that I take heed and beware of, as I am instructed to do, not the gifted Teachers that Paul said God Inspired.

Paul said I have everything I need in this world, to overcome the deceiver who comes in Christ's Name. He said;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I have God's armor, His Mercy and Grace, Atonement provided by His son to those the Father gives Him, the examples HE had written for my admonition. Why would I throw that away just to support some random religious business which existed in the world God placed me in?

Dwight -If you're a loner, the only one who believes what you do, then you are violating scripture right there.

Thanks goodness then, that I am not the only one who trusts what is written. And the adults I meet with in study and fellowship, they too believe in what is written. And there are men on this very forum who also believes the Scriptures.

There's no such thing as a lone Christian, or do you even use the Biblical term "Christian", which means a disciple of Jesus.

According to Paul;

2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So I don't agree with your definition of a "Christian". Every religion that you preach to others is a "Cult" calls themselves "Christian" and "Disciples of Christ". I prefer to use the Bible's Definition of a "Christian", and that would be a repentant person who, as Paul defines, "Repents, turns to God, does Works worthy of repentance". Are we not told to "put on a New Man" which is "Christ-Like". Or as it is written in another place;

1 John 2: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Did Jesus walk in the religions of men in His Time who transgressed God's Commandments by their own traditions? I would say NO! So why would a man choose the philosophies of a religious business that clearly and openly does that today?

If there is nobody else who believes what you do, then how can you obey Jesus' command to "Love one another"?

Jesus loved the mainstream preachers of His Time by telling them the truth about their doctrines and religious traditions. They didn't like it much either and didn't love Him back by confessing what was obvious to Him and John the Baptist. I am not alone in my understanding of scriptures.

You are offended because you have chosen one of this world's religions, and the Scriptures I post bring question to their religious philosophy you are promoting.

What scriptures were they again? I must have missed that post.

Thanks again for allowing our discussion to continue. These things are important to talk about, in my view.

 

[Doug Brents]

Revelation 19:11-18 may not necessarily be the second coming of Christ. In Acts 1:11, two angels said to the apostles: "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
1. Jesus did not leave on a white horse, so why would He return on a white horse?

The white cloud could figuratively be a white horse.

2. When Jesus left, He was lifted up and a cloud received Him out of their sight (Acts 1:9), but there's no mention of a cloud here, as 1 Thess. 4:17 mentions.

Correct, no mention of a cloud, but as noted, the horse could be the cloud. And there are many examples of one Scripture mentioning a detail that is left out in other descriptions of the same event.

3. It doesn't use the word "comes" as in Mat. 25:31; or "will be revealed from heaven" as in 2 Thess. 1:7; or "at His coming" in 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Thess. 2:19; or "the coming of our Lord Jesus" 1 Thess. 2:19, 3:13, 5:23, 2 Thess. 2:1, or "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess. 4:15, or "the appearance of His coming" as in 2 Thess. 2:8. Also James 5:7 and 8 and 2 Peter 1:16

True, but Rev 19 is told from the perspective of one standing in Heaven. So then, Christ on His horse, leading His army, would not "come", but would be seen preparing, and then arriving at the battle, and that is what we see in Rev 19:11-18.

4. So John saw "heaven opened" in Revelation 19:11, but there's no indication that the Lord was physically coming to the earth.

Heaven opened up so that he could then see Earth, and the angel stood in the sun (vs 17) meaning he was within creation, not still in Heaven.

5. Jesus is called "The Word of God" here, with a sharp sword coming out of His mouth, "so that with it He may strike down the nations, ..." verses 13 and 15. So we know this is symbolism, since He doesn't actually have a sword coming out of His mouth. So this could be the Lord "And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (which are the righteous acts of the saints, so these were believers, not angels), ... following Him on white horses." - going throughout the earth spreading the word of God, which is the sword of the Spirit, and conquering His enemies. Zechariah 10:3 says " ... For the Lord of Hosts has visited His flock, the house of Judah, and will make them like His majestic horse in battle.

Interesting thought and could be accurate, except that Rev 19:7 says that "the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has prepared herself". This means that the wedding feast is about to begin, and Christ is coming to get His bride (the Church).
I am not sure if you know how a Jewish wedding works, but having worshiped with a Messianic Jewish Congregation for some time, and having been married by a Rabbi in a traditional ceremony, I have experienced what Scripture is talking about.
First, two fathers negotiate for their children to be married. They sign a contract, a ketubah, and at that point the children are married (but they do not yet live as husband and wife). The boy then goes off to build a home in which he and his wife will live; the girl then goes and makes herself beautiful. When the home is ready, and the time set by the fathers is reached, the boy then goes and gets the girl and they march through the city announcing the marriage and a feast is held at his home; and at some point during that evening the marriage is consummated.
This is what we find described by Jesus in John 14:3. And we see in Rev 19:7 that the Lamb is preparing to go get His bride and march her through the city (creation) and bring her to His home.

6. Then verses 19-21 would apparently be the same thing happening in Rev. 20:7-10

But no, 19:19-21 is certainly not the same thing as 20:7-10. In 19, we see the Beast and false prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire. And in 20 we see that the Beast and false prophet are already in the Lake and Satan thrown in with them. Chapter 19 happens before the 1000 years, but chapter 20 happens after the 1000 years.

 

[dwight92070]

The white cloud could figuratively be a white horse.

Correct, no mention of a cloud, but as noted, the horse could be the cloud. And there are many examples of one Scripture mentioning a detail that is left out in other descriptions of the same event.

True, but Rev 19 is told from the perspective of one standing in Heaven. So then, Christ on His horse, leading His army, would not "come", but would be seen preparing, and then arriving at the battle, and that is what we see in Rev 19:11-18.

Heaven opened up so that he could then see Earth, and the angel stood in the sun (vs 17) meaning he was within creation, not still in Heaven.

Interesting thought and could be accurate, except that Rev 19:7 says that "the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has prepared herself". This means that the wedding feast is about to begin, and Christ is coming to get His bride (the Church).
I am not sure if you know how a Jewish wedding works, but having worshiped with a Messianic Jewish Congregation for some time, and having been married by a Rabbi in a traditional ceremony, I have experienced what Scripture is talking about.
First, two fathers negotiate for their children to be married. They sign a contract, a ketubah, and at that point the children are married (but they do not yet live as husband and wife). The boy then goes off to build a home in which he and his wife will live; the girl then goes and makes herself beautiful. When the home is ready, and the time set by the fathers is reached, the boy then goes and gets the girl and they march through the city announcing the marriage and a feast is held at his home; and at some point during that evening the marriage is consummated.
This is what we find described by Jesus in John 14:3. And we see in Rev 19:7 that the Lamb is preparing to go get His bride and march her through the city (creation) and bring her to His home.

But no, 19:19-21 is certainly not the same thing as 20:7-10. In 19, we see the Beast and false prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire. And in 20 we see that the Beast and false prophet are already in the Lake and Satan thrown in with them. Chapter 19 happens before the 1000 years, but chapter 20 happens after the 1000 years.

Revelation 19:11 If John is standing in heaven, then he wouldn't need to see "heaven opened" because he is already there. It seems more likely that he is standing on earth and the Lord is giving him a glimpse of what is happening in heaven in the spiritual "world", while the gospel is being preached throughout the physical world. He also sees, while on earth, the "silhouette" of an angel in the sun in verse 17. Regarding verses 19-21, you are correct - I will have to study that more. But in my studies so far, I cannot see how a 1000 year reign of Christ after His 2nd Coming happens either here on earth or in heaven. He is already reigning in heaven at the right hand of God, so what would make a specific 1000 year period in heaven different? I know that we both believe that the 1000 years is a symbolic number.

 

[JLG]

Revelation 19:11 If John is standing in heaven, then he wouldn't need to see "heaven opened" because he is already there. It seems more likely that he is standing on earth and the Lord is giving him a glimpse of what is happening in heaven in the spiritual "world", while the gospel is being preached throughout the physical world. He also sees, while on earth, the "silhouette" of an angel in the sun in verse 17. Regarding verses 19-21, you are correct - I will have to study that more. But in my studies so far, I cannot see how a 1000 year reign of Christ after His 2nd Coming happens either here on earth or in heaven. He is already reigning in heaven at the right hand of God, so what would make a specific 1000 year period in heaven different? I know that we both believe that the 1000 years is a symbolic number.

- You speak about your studies in connection with the 1,000 years!
- Could you give a link to check it so you don't have to repeat yourself?

 

[Doug Brents]

Revelation 19:11 If John is standing in heaven, then he wouldn't need to see "heaven opened" because he is already there.

One can see Heaven opened up while looking up or down. In this case, he is standing in Heaven and looking down and sees Heaven opened up so that he can now see the Earth from Heaven.

It seems more likely that he is standing on earth and the Lord is giving him a glimpse of what is happening in heaven in the spiritual "world", while the gospel is being preached throughout the physical world. He also sees, while on earth, the "silhouette" of an angel in the sun in verse 17. Regarding verses 19-21, you are correct - I will have to study that more. But in my studies so far, I cannot see how a 1000 year reign of Christ after His 2nd Coming happens either here on earth or in heaven. He is already reigning in heaven at the right hand of God, so what would make a specific 1000 year period in heaven different? I know that we both believe that the 1000 years is a symbolic number.

Yes, I agree that the number is symbolic, and I don't know that we will ever really know the answers to many of these questions. I think that the important thing is that we continue to ask and try to answer the questions. Because if we had already been given all of the answers we would cease to study, and cease to discuss the possibilities, and so grow stale in the Word. But because we do not KNOW all the answers, we are left to study, and debate, and continue to learn and grow in God's Word and so sharpen ourselves by rubbing against each other (mentally) an so become better weapons in God's arsenal.

Thank you for pushing me to continue in my study, and I hope I have been beneficial to your in your study as well.

 

[dwight92070]

- You speak about your studies in connection with the 1,000 years!
- Could you give a link to check it so you don't have to repeat yourself?

thenarrowpath.com -click on topical lectures - then click on "When Shall These Things Be?" - there are 14 lectures there dealing with the end times

 

[dwight92070]

One can see Heaven opened up while looking up or down. In this case, he is standing in Heaven and looking down and sees Heaven opened up so that he can now see the Earth from Heaven.

Yes, I agree that the number is symbolic, and I don't know that we will ever really know the answers to many of these questions. I think that the important thing is that we continue to ask and try to answer the questions. Because if we had already been given all of the answers we would cease to study, and cease to discuss the possibilities, and so grow stale in the Word. But because we do not KNOW all the answers, we are left to study, and debate, and continue to learn and grow in God's Word and so sharpen ourselves by rubbing against each other (mentally) an so become better weapons in God's arsenal.

Thank you for pushing me to continue in my study, and I hope I have been beneficial to your in your study as well.

Have you ever thought about why it was necessary for the Lord to "encode" Revelation, instead of just plainly and literally stating what would happen? Well, I have heard that probably the main reason was because that the people in charge, the Romans, if they read a plain narrative of what was going to happen, especially if they themselves were depicted in the story, might use it as evidence against all Christians and persecute them even more. Couldn't that also be the reason why Daniel's visions were "encoded"? - because current emperors wouldn't want to hear about a future emperor that would overthrow them. That too, could cause trouble for Daniel's people, the Jews.
Could it also be a means of testing Christians, even today? I believe a devoted believer will WANT the blessing mentioned in Revelation 1:3, and so will read and study the book. On the other hand, some Christians may have little interest in the book, and not even bother to read it, and thereby reveal their lack of desire to grow spiritually. Unfortunately, I think I can say that I haven't always desired to study it, as I should have.

 

[DavP]

Forgive me, but I am having a moment here. I just came to a realization that changes some things in my understanding. I have always read in Rev 20:11 that the universe had already been destroyed, but it just hit me that this may be the point at which the universe is destroyed, after the 1000 years. This changes my understanding of where the 1000 years takes place, but not who is a part of it, nor what it is about (the wedding celebration of Christ and the Church). I am not sure if this will be a "physical" resurrection, a spiritual resurrection, or if it will be the resurrection that puts us in our NEW bodies as described in 1 Cor 15:25-54 ready for the New Earth that is to come.

You were... pretty much on track, until you allowed men's doctrines to confuse you about the future changes that are coming upon this earth. I'm saying that idea that the earth is going to be literally destroyed is a pop notion from men's doctrines.

Zechariah 14 shows Lord Jesus coming to this earth on the "day of the Lord" which is the last day of this world, and His coming is to accompany the heavens rolled together as a scroll and every mountain and island moving out of their place (Rev.6:12-14; Isaiah 34 & 35 & 66). Yet the earth is still here.

Revelation 20:11 will be no different, because it will also include more earth changes, as it will be The Father literally bringing the new heavens and a new earth which He promised in final, per 2 Peter 3. That event will not destroy this earth either, but will be re-establishing of how God made His original Perfect creation before Satan rebelled against Him. Did the flood of Noah's day destroy this earth? No. It simply cleansed the evil off its surface. God's consuming fire on the day of Christ's coming will do the same, simply cleanse the surface of this earth of man's works, and not destroy the whole earth.

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

 

[Doug Brents]

You were... pretty much on track, until you allowed men's doctrines to confuse you about the future changes that are coming upon this earth. I'm saying that idea that the earth is going to be literally destroyed is a pop notion from men's doctrines.

Zechariah 14 shows Lord Jesus coming to this earth on the "day of the Lord" which is the last day of this world, and His coming is to accompany the heavens rolled together as a scroll and every mountain and island moving out of their place (Rev.6:12-14; Isaiah 34 & 35 & 66). Yet the earth is still here.

Revelation 20:11 will be no different, because it will also include more earth changes, as it will be The Father literally bringing the new heavens and a new earth which He promised in final, per 2 Peter 3. That event will not destroy this earth either, but will be re-establishing of how God made His original Perfect creation before Satan rebelled against Him. Did the flood of Noah's day destroy this earth? No. It simply cleansed the evil off its surface. God's consuming fire on the day of Christ's coming will do the same, simply cleanse the surface of this earth of man's works, and not destroy the whole earth.

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

I get what you are saying, but there seems to be a contradiction between Scriptures then. Rev 20:11 does not say that Earth was changed, nor that the Earth was cleaned off so that it could be repopulated as after the Flood. It says, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them." No place was found, period; they were gone. And this agrees with 2 Pet 3:10 which says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up."
Both Psalms and Ecclesiastes refer to "forever" which is a "time" term, but if time is purely a part of this creation, then time will be destroyed at the same time that the universe is destroyed. And so the Earth will last as long as there is time (forever).