Could it be happening now ?

[Studyman]

o.k. - more simply put ... you belong to a house church.

I understand how powerful this world's religious traditions are, like adopting existing religions and their religious traditions and doctrines, labeling them, to create a difference between them, etc. So I understand how you are drawn to create a label for me and my belief such as "house church". But I actually belong to the same church Abraham, Zacharias, Peter, James and all the examples of faith given us by the Inspired Word of God. In my understanding there is little or no difference between one manmade structure or another. For me, the "Way of the Lord" is a way of life, not a house, or other man made shrine of worship.

I'm very aware that over the past couple of decades, multitudes have been led out of the denominational churches in the USA to fellowships that meet in homes.

I would argue that the practice of God People to "come out of" this world's "many" religions who come in God's Name is a very old movement. The Jesus of the Bible taught outside the manmade shrine of worship in Jerusalem a lot. He made it clear how HE thought about a religious body who "Transgressed God's commandments by their own traditions". Jesus warned specifically about "many" who call Him Lord, and who come in His Name. HE said "Take Heed" we are not deceived by them. Since we all now have access to Moses, we can hear him directly, without having to hear him through the filter of men who don't believe what he wrote. We also have the Testimony of Jesus, and His Apostles. Paul said this is what we need, not adopting one or another religion which exist in the world god placed us in, and then adopting their religious philosophies.

Do you believe all those who are affiliated with a denominational "church" are necessarily unsaved? The reason I ask is because I've know some who have went to that extreme.

I believe we all have darkness, and men love darkness. Jesus said there are two kinds of men.

John 3: 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I partook in the religious doctrines, philosophies and traditions of this world's religions, as was the tradition I was born into. When I came to the Light, many of those traditions caused me to "Transgress God's Commandments".

So I repented and left the religion and no longer "Yielded myself" servants to obey their doctrines and traditions, in favor of yielding myself to obey God, and have become a servant of God's Righteousness. That is what I and others I know are "Pressing towards", as Paul also labored. Jerimiah, David, Zacharias, Abraham, all partook of this way of life.

I am her sharing a perspective of a man who has chosen this path for over 25 years now. I'm sure it will rub some folks wrong, it always has, but that isn't the intent.

 

[dwight92070]

I don't read any of that in the bible except Jesus knowing a mans thoughts and what is in a mans heart because He is God.

I see it more like Job. If we're abiding in Jesus, then God has put a hedge around us that Satan cannot penetrate, no matter what he knows about us, unless God wants to test us, as He did Job. And He does test all of us: "The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests hearts." Proverbs 17:3

" ... who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the refelation of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:5-7

 

[dwight92070]

I understand how powerful this world's religious traditions are, like adopting existing religions and their religious traditions and doctrines, labeling them, to create a difference between them, etc. So I understand how you are drawn to create a label for me and my belief such as "house church". But I actually belong to the same church Abraham, Zacharias, Peter, James and all the examples of faith given us by the Inspired Word of God. In my understanding there is little or no difference between one manmade structure or another. For me, the "Way of the Lord" is a way of life, not a house, or other man made shrine of worship.



I would argue that the practice of God People to "come out of" this world's "many" religions who come in God's Name is a very old movement. The Jesus of the Bible taught outside the manmade shrine of worship in Jerusalem a lot. He made it clear how HE thought about a religious body who "Transgressed God's commandments by their own traditions". Jesus warned specifically about "many" who call Him Lord, and who come in His Name. HE said "Take Heed" we are not deceived by them. Since we all now have access to Moses, we can hear him directly, without having to hear him through the filter of men who don't believe what he wrote. We also have the Testimony of Jesus, and His Apostles. Paul said this is what we need, not adopting one or another religion which exist in the world god placed us in, and then adopting their religious philosophies.





I believe we all have darkness, and men love darkness. Jesus said there are two kinds of men.

John 3: 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I partook in the religious doctrines, philosophies and traditions of this world's religions, as was the tradition I was born into. When I came to the Light, many of those traditions caused me to "Transgress God's Commandments".

So I repented and left the religion and no longer "Yielded myself" servants to obey their doctrines and traditions, in favor of yielding myself to obey God, and have become a servant of God's Righteousness. That is what I and others I know are "Pressing towards", as Paul also labored. Jerimiah, David, Zacharias, Abraham, all partook of this way of life.

I am her sharing a perspective of a man who has chosen this path for over 25 years now. I'm sure it will rub some folks wrong, it always has, but that isn't the int

 

[dwight92070]

Studyman - But I actually belong to the same church Abraham, Zacharias, Peter, James and all the examples of faith given us by the Inspired Word of God.

Actually, pretty much all of us here belong to that same church - it's called the body of Christ, or the church of the living God, or the church of God, or the saints, or the Bride of Christ -all of these are Biblical designations for the true church. But to admit that, as a member of the body of Christ, you belong to or go to a homechurch, or a Baptist church, or to a non-denominational charismatic church, etc., is NOT going to automatically defile you or put you into "the doctrines, philosophies and traditions of this world's religions". It sounds as if you and your likeminded group of people have so separated yourselves from all other true believers, that you come across as being almost a cult, or at least very legalistic.

If you and your group really love ALL the body of Christ, like Christ commanded, then I would suggest that ALL of you, or just you and your wife (if you're married) attend a traditional church meeting this Sunday, not because you agree with them, but because you are willing to express your love for them, by simply fellowshipping with them and worshipping with them.

In fact, I will agree to do that myself, if you will do the same - and I disagree with tons of things in traditional churches, which is why my wife and I go to a homechurch. But I and my wife will go to a traditional church this Sunday, if you will agree to do the same - as a way for both of us to express our love for the body of Christ. What do you say?

 

[Rapture Bound]

Studyman - But I actually belong to the same church Abraham, Zacharias, Peter, James and all the examples of faith given us by the Inspired Word of God.

Actually, pretty much all of us here belong to that same church - it's called the body of Christ, or the church of the living God, or the church of God, or the saints, or the Bride of Christ -all of these are Biblical designations for the true church. But to admit that, as a member of the body of Christ, you belong to or go to a homechurch, or a Baptist church, or to a non-denominational charismatic church, etc., is NOT going to automatically defile you or put you into "the doctrines, philosophies and traditions of this world's religions". It sounds as if you and your likeminded group of people have so separated yourselves from all other true believers, that you come across as being almost a cult, or at least very legalistic.

If you and your group really love ALL the body of Christ, like Christ commanded, then I would suggest that ALL of you, or just you and your wife (if you're married) attend a traditional church meeting this Sunday, not because you agree with them, but because you are willing to express your love for them, by simply fellowshipping with them and worshipping with them.

In fact, I will agree to do that myself, if you will do the same - and I disagree with tons of things in traditional churches, which is why my wife and I go to a homechurch. But I and my wife will go to a traditional church this Sunday, if you will agree to do the same - as a way for both of us to express our love for the body of Christ. What do you say?

You said, "It sounds as if you and your likeminded group of people have so separated yourselves from all other true believers, that you come across as being almost a cult, or at least very legalistic."

As for your concerns, in post #341 I've asked Studyman a point-blank pertaining to your statement, but his response still left me unclear as to where he actually stands ... he didn't give me a "yes" or a "no" to my yes or no question.

Rapture Bound said:
Do you believe all those who are affiliated with a denominational "church" are necessarily unsaved? The reason I ask is because I've know some who have went to that extreme.

His response :

I believe we all have darkness, and men love darkness. Jesus said there are two kinds of men.

John 3: 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I partook in the religious doctrines, philosophies and traditions of this world's religions, as was the tradition I was born into. When I came to the Light, many of those traditions caused me to "Transgress God's Commandments".

So I repented and left the religion and no longer "Yielded myself" servants to obey their doctrines and traditions, in favor of yielding myself to obey God, and have become a servant of God's Righteousness. That is what I and others I know are "Pressing towards", as Paul also labored. Jerimiah, David, Zacharias, Abraham, all partook of this way of life.

I am her sharing a perspective of a man who has chosen this path for over 25 years now. I'm sure it will rub some folks wrong, it always has, but that isn't the intent.

 

[JLG]

thenarrowpath.com -click on topical lectures - then click on "When Shall These Things Be?" - there are 14 lectures there dealing with the end times

- I have just listened to 03 The Millenium as the Fulfillment of Israels Hope!
- What does it mean for you?

 

[dwight92070]

- I have just listened to 03 The Millenium as the Fulfillment of Israels Hope!
- What does it mean for you?

It's been awhile since I heard that one, but I will listen to it again and get back with you, JLG.

 

[DavP]

I see what you are saying. At Creation, the Earth was created with no land above the surface of the water, and so there was a "worldwide flood" if you will. But there was no life yet created at that point, so it was a moot point.

No, not what Genesis 1 is showing. What I'm saying is that God's Word reveals there was a PREVIOUS WORLD EARTH AGE prior to the time of Adam and Eve. The creation event of Genesis 1:1 in the beginning is the ORIGINAL PERFECT CREATION of that 1st world earth age before Satan rebelled.

You do... understand there was a time BEFORE Satan rebelled when he served GOD at His throne, and was perfect in his ways, don't you?

For those interested...

Gen 1:1-10
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

The above creation in the beginning was a FULL PERFECT CREATION. That was when Satan as a covering cherub was created to guard God's throne and was perfect in his ways following GOD at His throne (parable of Ezekiel 28). Then Satan rebelled with coveting God's throne for himself, wanting to be The GOD. Rev.12:3-4 says he drew one third of the angels ("stars") with him to earth in rebellion.
The following verse is the RESULT of God ending Satan's rebellion... with the original earth created at verse 1 now laying in a waste. The parallel Scripture of this destruction is in Jeremiah 4:23-28...

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That phrase "without form, and void" is Hebrew tohu va bohu, and does not mean a literal void, like a vacuum outer space realm. It means 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin', which is how Dr. James Strong translated it in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. (OT:8414 and OT:922). If you look up Hebrew tohu for how it is translated, you'll discover that most often it's about something in a good state going bad, or into nothing.

That is what God is pointing to at this point in verse 2 about the earth being covered with those waters. The "face of the deep" and "face of the waters" are expressions used about the time of Noah's flood also (Gen.8:2; Gen.7:18; Job 38:30; Psalms 104:6). The earth had been in a perfect... state before Satan rebelled, then God ended that 1st world earth age with a flood over the whole earth, and this was long before the days of Noah. (I have to keep saying that as a reminder against the tendency many have to float to men's doctrines instead with Noah's time, even making the mistake of these waters upon the earth at this time in Genesis 1 before Noah was even born.)

Some call this idea the "Gap theory". No matter what they call it, is it God's Word or not, that's the question. I find there are many Scripture pointers to it.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The actual placing of the sun and moon is not until Genesis 1:14 later, so I consider this division between light and darkness mainly being about God's Light vs. a place of darkness for Satan, i.e., the creation of the abode of Hades, because remember, prior to Satan's rebellion, there was no sin. Apostle John pointed to Satan who sinned from the beginning, meaning Satan was responsible for the very first sin (1 John 3:8).

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

At that point all... the waters of Gen.1:2 are overspread upon the earth. The earth was already there underneath all those waters. God is dividing those waters overspread upon the earth.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

That firmament is the sky atmosphere around the earth. God took only a portion of those waters that were upon the earth, and moved them up above the earth to create today's sky atmosphere. In Jeremiah 4 He points out for this reason the earth would mourn, and the heavens above be black, meaning storms created by an imperfect atmosphere with holes in it, which is the cause of today's violent weather storms.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Now He parts the waters still remaining that covered the whole earth, and makes the dry land appear, actually re-appear, for the earth was already there underneath all those waters. There is NO mention of God creating earth again past Genesis 1:1. This is only about the parting of waters upon an already created earth at Genesis 1:1.

That is the place which Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3 was pointing to about the earth standing out of the water, and in the water, from the destruction at Genesis 1:2, and God separating the flood waters upon the earth here.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV


That is what God's Word actually reveals about His original creation that was perfect, before Satan rebelled against Him.

The traditional interpretation of Hebrew tohu va bohu ("without form, and void") is actually a theory pointing to man's theory of the evolution of a gaseous nebula starting in outer space as a vacuum. That's not what tohu va bohu is pointing to. In Isaiah 45:18, God said He did not create the earth in vain, with that word for "vain" being Hebrew tohu. And what's funny, those evolution science types that teach that try to claim that this Gap idea is about evolution, when it is the exact opposite of men's theories of evolution.

In Romans 8:18-25 Apostle Paul pointed to God's creation originally have been in a perfect condition. He even showed that God placed today's creation in bondage to vanity seeking a release along with the manifestation of the sons of God. We have been fed with TV, film, movies, and science mags to think that today's creation is in a perfect state when that couldn't be farther from the truth. Today's creation is imperfect, everything dies and decays. The earth is covered over 70% of its surface with waters, and there are many areas of the earth that are uninhabitable as deserts and ice tundra. Yet fossils of both tropical animal and plant life have been found at both of the earth's Poles, revealing that at one time they were not covered with ice. The woolly mammoth found in the Arctic frozen solid still with vegetation in its mouth, and undigested in its stomach reveals a sudden freeze and flood of waters in that region.

There is about a 90 mile error between true geographic north and magnetic north. Because of this, aircraft pilots have to correct their compass heading over long distance; they use the saying, "east is least, and west is best", put for 6 degree correction traveling east, and 8 degree correction traveling west. Apostle Paul at the end of Hebrews 12 did point to God having shaken the earth long ago, and this next time He said He will shake heaven also.

In Revelation 21:1, we are told in the future world to come there will be "no more sea".

Where's all the waters of today's oceans and seas going to go in that future time?

The Book of Revelation has several parallels to the Book of Genesis, and that is one of them. With God's original 'perfect' creation in the "beginning", all the waters upon the earth today (except His River and the earth's rivers), were up in the sky as a 'complete' covering canopy over the whole earth. This is how tropical vegetation and animal life could exist at both Poles. No holes in the sky atmosphere around the earth, which creates what kind of weather? It creates a type of greenhouse, with even temperatures around the whole earth. No more hot spots like the equator zone, no extreme cold spots like the Poles.

Jer 4:27-28
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

What happens when the heavens above the earth turn black? It means rain clouds full of water that turn dark. I recall in aviation weather class, it taught that the earth's weather storms today were caused by hot air upon the earth heating by the sun from sky holes rising to meet cold air up higher creates a swirling effect which can turn into violent storms. Thus today's earth is in a state of mourning according to God's Word...

Rom 8:20-23
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

Lot of strong meat there...

 

[DavP]

The revitalized and repopulated world we now live in.

No flesh man created prior to Adam in God's Garden.

The existence of nations in the 1st world earth age was about a time of the angelic living upon this earth.

Remember that in Genesis 2, God's Garden of Eden is shown located upon the earth. So just when... did He plant His Garden of Eden upon the earth, how far back did He set it on the earth? His River of the Waters of Life are there, and His Tree of Life is there. When did He set that upon the earth back then? And per Rev.21 and Rev.22 we know that is to return back to this earth when it is renewed.

Some scientists are just starting to discover some of those ancient civilizations that go back to that 1st world earth age prior to Adam. Per Biblical timing from Christ back to Adam, 4004 B.C. is the time when Adam was formed in God's Garden. A lot happened prior to 4004 B.C. Dr. Robert Schoch, professor of geology at Boston University proved the Sphinx in Egypt actually dates back to when the Sahara desert was a tropic zone. And giving the rains enough time to create the water erosion evidence on the Sphinx and its enclosure, he said points back to at least 10,000 B.C., maybe even further. One thing is for sure, it proves the Egyptians definitely did not build the Sphinx nor the temple next to it that dates back to the same timing based on the geological evidence.

In Ezekiel 31, which is heavy metaphor about Satan, God uses the title of the "Assyrian" to point to Satan in the world that then was. In one passage, it states how Satan was over "all great nations". Later in that chapter God speaks of how he fell, so all that before that is about the time when Satan was perfect in his ways following God. Thus the idea of 'nations' existed in that 1st world earth age before Satan rebelled. The Rev.12:3-4 verses are pointing directly to that time with that original beast system that Satan rebelled with, that had only seven crowns. Because most don't understand about that 1st world earth age, they just skip right over this in red underlined about Satan's first beast kingdom over the earth in that 1st world earth age...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

So there was a beast kingdom involving nations ruled by Satan in that old world when He first rebelled against God? YES.

And per Lord Jesus explaining about the waters from which the final beast of Rev.13:1 comes out of per Rev.17:15, those waters represent nations, multitudes, peoples, and tongues.

 

[DavP]

Which will come into being after this Creation is destroyed.

I also must remind you, the 1st world earth age had NOTHING TO DO WITH A FLESH MAN existence.

It was an angelic existence upon this ancient earth, with cities. It was not about flesh man. Flesh man did not exist until Adam, and is for this present 2nd world earth age. Understanding this is difficult for many, because of men's false doctrine about the 'image of man'. The false prophets try to teach that the image of 'man' always means the flesh. It does not, because that image of 'man' originates from our Heavenly Father's Own outward Image likeness of a 'man', as written at Genesis 1:26-27. This is why angels in God's Word appeared on earth with the image of man. It's because God created them with that image of 'man' also, even Satan too.

The new heavens and a new earth is connected with God setting that up per Rev.20:11. Christ's future Millennial reign is actually part of this present 2nd world earth age. Just like God ended the time of Satan's rebellion with a flood, and then the time of Noah with a flood, that did not literally destroy the whole earth as if it no longer existed. Likewise with God's consuming fire on the "day of the Lord " when Jesus comes, that will not literally destroy this earth into an asteroid belt either. It will simply cleanse the surface of this earth, just like the previous 2 floods did. The earth is forever, as written.

Not so. Satan was the guardian cherub set to guard and protect God's most precious and cherished possession: MAN!

I don't know where you got that idea from, Mormons maybe?

Ezekiel 28 reveals that God created Satan a cherub that covereth. That means one of the two cherub shown on the ark of the covenant guarding the Mercy Seat (i.e., God's Throne). Satan instead COVETED GOD'S THRONE, and that is how he rebelled and fell.

No, "outer space" will cease to exist as well. Rev 20:11 says that not only the Earth, but also the heavens (the first (Earth's atmosphere) and second (the rest of the universe where the moon and stars are) heaven) will not exist because "no place was found for them."

You are confusing the 2 heavens of Genesis 1:1. One heaven is the sky atmosphere around the earth. The other Heaven is God's Abode in a separate dimension of existence behind a veil we cannot see. The event that will happen is about that Heavenly dimension being revealed co-existing with the earthly dimension, with God's presence on earth with us, living here on earth. It is not about a total destruction of this earthly dimension like you are thinking. You might as well believe everything is destroyed, except a future living up in the clouds like some fictional Hollywood movie.

Heaven!

Like I said, God's Heavenly Abode is coming back... to this earth. The last verse of Ezekiel 48 says the name of the new Jerusalem on earth will then be named, "The Lord is there".

Zech 14 is not about what to us is still future. That is talking about the time between His resurrection and AD70.

Well, I'm done. I'm not going to listen to such baloney Preterist doctrines of men created by the crept in unawares in some seminaries today. The Zechariah 14 chapter is about the DAY OF CHRIST'S FUTURE COMING. End of story.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, not what Genesis 1 is showing. What I'm saying is that God's Word reveals there was a PREVIOUS WORLD EARTH AGE prior to the time of Adam and Eve. The creation event of Genesis 1:1 in the beginning is the ORIGINAL PERFECT CREATION of that 1st world earth age before Satan rebelled.

You do... understand there was a time BEFORE Satan rebelled when he served GOD at His throne, and was perfect in his ways, don't you?

Yes, and that time was between the first instant of day 1 Creation (presumably when the Angels were created, although we are not told when they were created) and the point at which Adam and Eve sinned (which was between immediately after day 6 of Creation and 110 years after Creation (We know when Seth was conceived (year 130 from Creation), but not when Cain and Able were conceived, and the fall happened at some point before Cain was conceived)).

For those interested...

Gen 1:1-10
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

The above creation in the beginning was a FULL PERFECT CREATION. That was when Satan as a covering cherub was created to guard God's throne and was perfect in his ways following GOD at His throne (parable of Ezekiel 28). Then Satan rebelled with coveting God's throne for himself, wanting to be The GOD. Rev.12:3-4 says he drew one third of the angels ("stars") with him to earth in rebellion.
The following verse is the RESULT of God ending Satan's rebellion... with the original earth created at verse 1 now laying in a waste. The parallel Scripture of this destruction is in Jeremiah 4:23-28...

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That phrase "without form, and void" is Hebrew tohu va bohu, and does not mean a literal void, like a vacuum outer space realm. It means 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin', which is how Dr. James Strong translated it in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. (OT:8414 and OT:922). If you look up Hebrew tohu for how it is translated, you'll discover that most often it's about something in a good state going bad, or into nothing.

That is what God is pointing to at this point in verse 2 about the earth being covered with those waters. The "face of the deep" and "face of the waters" are expressions used about the time of Noah's flood also (Gen.8:2; Gen.7:18; Job 38:30; Psalms 104:6). The earth had been in a perfect... state before Satan rebelled, then God ended that 1st world earth age with a flood over the whole earth, and this was long before the days of Noah. (I have to keep saying that as a reminder against the tendency many have to float to men's doctrines instead with Noah's time, even making the mistake of these waters upon the earth at this time in Genesis 1 before Noah was even born.)

Some call this idea the "Gap theory". No matter what they call it, is it God's Word or not, that's the question. I find there are many Scripture pointers to it.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The actual placing of the sun and moon is not until Genesis 1:14 later, so I consider this division between light and darkness mainly being about God's Light vs. a place of darkness for Satan, i.e., the creation of the abode of Hades, because remember, prior to Satan's rebellion, there was no sin. Apostle John pointed to Satan who sinned from the beginning, meaning Satan was responsible for the very first sin (1 John 3:8).

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

At that point all... the waters of Gen.1:2 are overspread upon the earth. The earth was already there underneath all those waters. God is dividing those waters overspread upon the earth.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

That firmament is the sky atmosphere around the earth. God took only a portion of those waters that were upon the earth, and moved them up above the earth to create today's sky atmosphere. In Jeremiah 4 He points out for this reason the earth would mourn, and the heavens above be black, meaning storms created by an imperfect atmosphere with holes in it, which is the cause of today's violent weather storms.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Now He parts the waters still remaining that covered the whole earth, and makes the dry land appear, actually re-appear, for the earth was already there underneath all those waters. There is NO mention of God creating earth again past Genesis 1:1. This is only about the parting of waters upon an already created earth at Genesis 1:1.

That is the place which Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3 was pointing to about the earth standing out of the water, and in the water, from the destruction at Genesis 1:2, and God separating the flood waters upon the earth here.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV


That is what God's Word actually reveals about His original creation that was perfect, before Satan rebelled against Him.

The traditional interpretation of Hebrew tohu va bohu ("without form, and void") is actually a theory pointing to man's theory of the evolution of a gaseous nebula starting in outer space as a vacuum. That's not what tohu va bohu is pointing to. In Isaiah 45:18, God said He did not create the earth in vain, with that word for "vain" being Hebrew tohu. And what's funny, those evolution science types that teach that try to claim that this Gap idea is about evolution, when it is the exact opposite of men's theories of evolution.

In Romans 8:18-25 Apostle Paul pointed to God's creation originally have been in a perfect condition. He even showed that God placed today's creation in bondage to vanity seeking a release along with the manifestation of the sons of God. We have been fed with TV, film, movies, and science mags to think that today's creation is in a perfect state when that couldn't be farther from the truth. Today's creation is imperfect, everything dies and decays. The earth is covered over 70% of its surface with waters, and there are many areas of the earth that are uninhabitable as deserts and ice tundra. Yet fossils of both tropical animal and plant life have been found at both of the earth's Poles, revealing that at one time they were not covered with ice. The woolly mammoth found in the Arctic frozen solid still with vegetation in its mouth, and undigested in its stomach reveals a sudden freeze and flood of waters in that region.

There is about a 90 mile error between true geographic north and magnetic north. Because of this, aircraft pilots have to correct their compass heading over long distance; they use the saying, "east is least, and west is best", put for 6 degree correction traveling east, and 8 degree correction traveling west. Apostle Paul at the end of Hebrews 12 did point to God having shaken the earth long ago, and this next time He said He will shake heaven also.

In Revelation 21:1, we are told in the future world to come there will be "no more sea".

Where's all the waters of today's oceans and seas going to go in that future time?

The Book of Revelation has several parallels to the Book of Genesis, and that is one of them. With God's original 'perfect' creation in the "beginning", all the waters upon the earth today (except His River and the earth's rivers), were up in the sky as a 'complete' covering canopy over the whole earth. This is how tropical vegetation and animal life could exist at both Poles. No holes in the sky atmosphere around the earth, which creates what kind of weather? It creates a type of greenhouse, with even temperatures around the whole earth. No more hot spots like the equator zone, no extreme cold spots like the Poles.

Jer 4:27-28
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

What happens when the heavens above the earth turn black? It means rain clouds full of water that turn dark. I recall in aviation weather class, it taught that the earth's weather storms today were caused by hot air upon the earth heating by the sun from sky holes rising to meet cold air up higher creates a swirling effect which can turn into violent storms. Thus today's earth is in a state of mourning according to God's Word...

Rom 8:20-23
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

Lot of strong meat there...

All of this is complete hypothesis and conjecture. There is no real Biblical support for it. The account in Genesis 1 and 2 is very clear, the Earth and the entirety of the Universe were only 6 days old when Man was created. There was no extended period of existence between God speaking the world into existence and God making Light, both happened on Day 1.

 

[DavP]

Yes, and that time was between the first instant of day 1 Creation (presumably when the Angels were created, although we are not told when they were created) and the point at which Adam and Eve sinned (which was between immediately after day 6 of Creation and 110 years after Creation (We know when Seth was conceived (year 130 from Creation), but not when Cain and Able were conceived, and the fall happened at some point before Cain was conceived)).

All of this is complete hypothesis and conjecture. There is no real Biblical support for it. The account in Genesis 1 and 2 is very clear, the Earth and the entirety of the Universe were only 6 days old when Man was created. There was no extended period of existence between God speaking the world into existence and God making Light, both happened on Day 1.

I've already shown you the Scripture evidence. You're free to believe whatever you want to believe, and you've revealed enough of your opinion that you are stuck in men's doctrines of Preterism, so unless you change, you'll never come to the truth of what I was showing from The Scriptures of God's Word.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't know where you got that idea from, Mormons maybe?

Covering Cherub is also Guardian Cherub. He was the most powerful, wise, beautiful, and dominant of God's angels.

Ezekiel 28 reveals that God created Satan a cherub that covereth. That means one of the two cherub shown on the ark of the covenant guarding the Mercy Seat (i.e., God's Throne). Satan instead COVETED GOD'S THRONE, and that is how he rebelled and fell.

Yes, Satan wanted to be ONE with God, as Christ is, and that was the sin that condemned him.

You are confusing the 2 heavens of Genesis 1:1. One heaven is the sky atmosphere around the earth. The other Heaven is God's Abode in a separate dimension of existence behind a veil we cannot see.

There are three "heavens" as understood by the Jews in the first century (2 Cor 12:2). The first is the Earth's atmosphere (where the birds fly). The second is "outer space" (where the moon, stars, and other galaxies are). The third is where God is (outside of Creation). I am not confusing them at all. The first and second (also referred to in Scripture as "heavenly places" or "heavenly realms") will be completely destroyed at the second coming.

The event that will happen is about that Heavenly dimension being revealed co-existing with the earthly dimension, with God's presence on earth with us, living here on earth. It is not about a total destruction of this earthly dimension like you are thinking. You might as well believe everything is destroyed, except a future living up in the clouds like some fictional Hollywood movie.

Again, that is not what Rev 20:11 says. "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven [the first two heavens as noted above] fled, and no place was found for them."

Like I said, God's Heavenly Abode is coming back... to this earth. The last verse of Ezekiel 48 says the name of the new Jerusalem on earth will then be named, "The Lord is there".

But the New Jerusalem will not be on this Earth or a part of this creation. It will be a part of the New Earth in the new creation (Rev 21:1-2).

Well, I'm done. I'm not going to listen to such baloney Preterist doctrines of men created by the crept in unawares in some seminaries today. The Zechariah 14 chapter is about the DAY OF CHRIST'S FUTURE COMING. End of story.

Not sure what man created doctrine you are talking about. Every prediction about what must come to pass before the Second coming of Christ was fulfilled (although many are being repeatedly fulfilled today (wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc.)) by 70AD and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Christians of the first century were looking for the return of Jesus within their lives. They had already seen the fulfillment of ALL of the prophecies that heralded the second coming. There is nothing remaining to look forward to except the events that surround His actual return (Earth destroyed, Satan bound, etc.).

I've already shown you the Scripture evidence. You're free to believe whatever you want to believe, and you've revealed enough of your opinion that you are stuck in men's doctrines of Preterism, so unless you change, you'll never come to the truth of what I was showing from The Scriptures of God's Word.

You have shown your personal interpretation of Scripture's statements that do not support your claims. But you are correct that I will never come to the "truth" of the falsehoods you have been trying to show, because they do not really come from Scripture but from your understanding of what Scripture says. It takes a lot of reading into Scripture to get to what you said, and none of it is "proven" unless you believe that the Scriptures lie about the age of the Earth between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. But Scripture does not lie, so when it says that creation began and light was created and then there was the end of the first day, there is only 24 hours (as we know them) in those first few verses.

 

[Studyman]

You said, "It sounds as if you and your likeminded group of people have so separated yourselves from all other true believers, that you come across as being almost a cult, or at least very legalistic."

As for your concerns, in post #341 I've asked Studyman a point-blank pertaining to your statement, but his response still left me unclear as to where he actually stands ... he didn't give me a "yes" or a "no" to my yes or no question.

Rapture Bound said:
Do you believe all those who are affiliated with a denominational "church" are necessarily unsaved? The reason I ask is because I've know some who have went to that extreme.

His response :

I believe we all have darkness, and men love darkness. Jesus said there are two kinds of men.

John 3: 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I partook in the religious doctrines, philosophies and traditions of this world's religions, as was the tradition I was born into. When I came to the Light, many of those traditions caused me to "Transgress God's Commandments".

So I repented and left the religion and no longer "Yielded myself" servants to obey their doctrines and traditions, in favor of yielding myself to obey God, and have become a servant of God's Righteousness. That is what I and others I know are "Pressing towards", as Paul also labored. Jerimiah, David, Zacharias, Abraham, all partook of this way of life.

I am her sharing a perspective of a man who has chosen this path for over 25 years now. I'm sure it will rub some folks wrong, it always has, but that isn't the intent.

I answered your question in detail. I am to be judged by what I do, not what others do. Men are free to "Yield themselves" servants to obey whatever "voice" they choose, and there are "many" religious sects and businesses in this World God placed me in, who come in Christ's Name, to choose from.

I believe God wants me to Choose Him and His Righteousness and am sharing a perspective of a man who believes this way.

Like Peter who also had disagreements with the mainstream God of Abraham preaching people of his time.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I answered your question in detail. I am to be judged by what I do, not what others do. Men are free to "Yield themselves" servants to obey whatever "voice" they choose, and there are "many" religious sects and businesses in this World God placed me in, who come in Christ's Name, to choose from.

I believe God wants me to Choose Him and His Righteousness and am sharing a perspective of a man who believes this way.

Like Peter who also had disagreements with the mainstream God of Abraham preaching people of his time.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Well, my question required a yes or a no ... pretty simple. I still haven't seen one or the other. But as I said before, you certainly are not obligated to answer my question.... God Bless!

 

[JLG]

It's been awhile since I heard that one, but I will listen to it again and get back with you, JLG.

ok

 

[Studyman]

Well, my question required a yes or a no ... pretty simple. I still haven't seen one or the other. But as I said before, you certainly are not obligated to answer my question.... God Bless!

Your question was a trick question, kind of like "Have you stopped beating your wife", YES or NO!

Rather than play these "gotcha games", I would much rather discuss honestly the realities of the world we live in, and what the scriptures actually say about them.

Jesus was also born into a world in which there were religions who "Professed to know God" but were not promoting HIS Way and had snared "Many" into adopting their traditions, philosophies and commandments of men that they taught for doctrines. Jesus didn't condemn those people who had been snared by these religious businesses and sects of this world, He had compassion on them and directed them to repent and turn to God/Him.

But the preachers of these religious businesses and sects which transgressed God's Commandments by their manmade doctrines, philosophies and traditions, He treated them differently. He pointed out the falsehoods in their doctrines and exposed their philosophies for all to see. He told them the plain truth about themselves, and the religion they promoted, not for their sakes, but for those who had listened to them.

They were offended no doubt, and so were "many" of those who had been snared by them. But there were those who repented and turned away from the religions of this world they were born into and turned to God. This was what Paul taught both Jew and Gentile to do in obedience to the Vision he received from Christ.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So here we are, placed in the same world, with "many" religious sects and businesses, all who come in Christ's Name, all promoting different doctrines and philosophies, all who transgress God's Commandments by their own religious traditions. Religions who have rejected God's Judgments and created their own. Who have polluted God's Sabbaths and created their own. Who have created their own image of God in the likeness of some random handsome long-haired man and have created their own high days in worship of this image.

Of course, as did the religions of the world Jesus was born into, when these undeniable truths are pointed out to those who promote them, they get angry and work to justify their religion. Each one defending their own particular religious sect. And of course they do. Religion is huge money in this world. Man made shrines of worship, 501C's, schools, seminaries, hospitals, money markets. Last year I saw a Jesus bobblehead for sale, 2 for $5.00.

A "Jesus Bobblehead" !!!!

These things are undeniably true, and another thing that is undeniably true, is that in the entire Bible, the Church of God didn't behave after this manner in any way.

So you are free to Judge others as saved or unsaved if you like. For me, I simply advocate that men accept the raw truth, like Jesus Promoted, not only about themselves, but also about the world God placed them in. And then follow the Christ "of the Bibles" Instruction accordingly.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

 

[dwight92070]

- I have just listened to 03 The Millenium as the Fulfillment of Israels Hope!
- What does it mean for you?

JLG, sorry I haven't been able to get back sooner on this. Even now I have not finished re-listening to 03, but I believe, as Steve does, that the amillennial view fits the scripture better than any other. In fact, look at this verse:

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm'."

So if Jesus' kingdom is of a different realm, not of this world, how can it be said that He will reign as King here on earth for a thousand years after His 2nd coming?

He is already reigning as King over His kingdom - "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matthew 28:18 Why would He even consider being demoted to King of this earthly realm, sitting on an earthly throne in Jerusalem?

He is already sitting at the right hand of God, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He will never step down from His rightful position. He is already the Ruler of the Kings of the earth - Revelation 1:5, only He is not ruling them on earth - He is ruling them from heaven. He will also reign as King and Lord in the New Heaven and the New Earth, but that is not of this realm.

I think the truth is that Jesus NEVER sat as king on an earthly throne, that is a throne of this realm, nor will He ever do that in the future.

 

[JLG]

- Ok!
- My problem is that that lecture lasts 1 hour and a half!
- I prefer Genesis 22:18!
- It is far more powerful in just few words!

And through your offspring
בְזַרְעֲךָ֔ (ḇə·zar·‘ă·ḵā)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct | second person masculine singular
Strong's 2233: Seed, fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity

all
כֹּ֖ל (kōl)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's 3605: The whole, all, any, every

nations
גּוֹיֵ֣י (gō·w·yê)
Noun - masculine plural construct
Strong's 1471: A foreign nation, a Gentile, a troop of animals, a flight of locusts

of the earth
הָאָ֑רֶץ (hā·’ā·reṣ)
Article | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 776: Earth, land

will be blessed,
וְהִתְבָּרֲכ֣וּ (wə·hiṯ·bā·ră·ḵū)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Hitpael - Conjunctive perfect - third person common plural
Strong's 1288: To kneel, to bless God, man, to curse

because
עֵ֕קֶב (‘ê·qeḇ)
Conjunction
Strong's 6118: A heel, the last of anything, result, compensation, on account of

you have obeyed
שָׁמַ֖עְתָּ (šā·ma‘·tā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - second person masculine singular
Strong's 8085: To hear intelligently

My voice.”
בְּקֹלִֽי׃ (bə·qō·lî)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct | first person common singular
Strong's 6963: A voice, sound

 

[dwight92070]

- Ok!
- My problem is that that lecture lasts 1 hour and a half!
- I prefer Genesis 22:18!
- It is far more powerful in just few words!

And through your offspring
בְזַרְעֲךָ֔ (ḇə·zar·‘ă·ḵā)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct | second person masculine singular
Strong's 2233: Seed, fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity

all
כֹּ֖ל (kōl)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's 3605: The whole, all, any, every

nations
גּוֹיֵ֣י (gō·w·yê)
Noun - masculine plural construct
Strong's 1471: A foreign nation, a Gentile, a troop of animals, a flight of locusts

of the earth
הָאָ֑רֶץ (hā·’ā·reṣ)
Article | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 776: Earth, land

will be blessed,
וְהִתְבָּרֲכ֣וּ (wə·hiṯ·bā·ră·ḵū)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Hitpael - Conjunctive perfect - third person common plural
Strong's 1288: To kneel, to bless God, man, to curse

because
עֵ֕קֶב (‘ê·qeḇ)
Conjunction
Strong's 6118: A heel, the last of anything, result, compensation, on account of

you have obeyed
שָׁמַ֖עְתָּ (šā·ma‘·tā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - second person masculine singular
Strong's 8085: To hear intelligently

My voice.”
בְּקֹלִֽי׃ (bə·qō·lî)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct | first person common singular
Strong's 6963: A voice, sound

And your point is?