Could it be happening now ?
- Thread starter civic
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My "Claim" is that I believe in the Christ "of the Bible". That is why I post His Words, that you ignore. And your words are nothing new. This world's religious men have been shaming those whose refuge is the Lord for a very long time. A religious voice, who quoted some of God's Word told Eve not to listen to God, that God is lying to her. The religious men who surrounded Caleb and Joshua threated them with stoning, simply because they "believed" what the Holy One of Israel told them. The mainstream religion in Jerusalem warned Peter not to teach the "Sayings" of the Christ. Peter told them, " We ought to obey God rather than men".
So the only thing I need to accomplish is to "Believe" in the Christ "of the Bible".
Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
I'm not interested in an other Jesus.
As I said, I am interested in what the Holy Scriptures teach, not this world's religious philosophy.
Rom. 11: 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
But "many" who come in Christ's Name, in the world God placed me in, don't believe these words. The Jesus "of the bible" told me to "Take Heed" of these men.
Again, because I "believe" what is written, you must shame and discourage me. Jesus told me it would be this way in this world. And it is true that I am not yet perfect, as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed me to be, and I count not myself to have apprehended perfection: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
This is because the Jesus "of the bible" doesn't press towards the High Calling of God for me. Surely not as seductive as a religion in which Jesus walks, so you don't have to. Nevertheless, I am not ashamed that I believe in the Jesus of the Bible enough to be a "doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. I doubt that you will honestly engage, nevertheless, The man Jesus healed, what did Jesus say to him "AFTER" He healed him?
In your religion, Jesus would have just carried him, walked for him. But the Jesus "of the bible" didn't do that. He healed him, and told him, "Rise, take up thy bed, and walk", and then HE told him, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee". So the Jesus of the Bible told him not only to walk, but "How" how to walk as well. In other words, after he was made whole, He "showed this man the way he should go".
And when you see this man, you would shame him for working to "Strive against sin", for "pressing toward the mark" of the high calling of God which was in Christ Jesus. For being "diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless". For "putting on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." For asking for help in time of temptation and unbelief. And you would tell this man, "You can't accomplish what the Christ "of the Bible" told you to do."
Then you would tell this man, as you work to convince me, "But you don't have to be a "doer" of the Sayings of the Christ "of the Bible", "Come to our religion as you are". Our Jesus does it all for you. And look, we are "many", while you are few.
The Spirit of the Christ, knowing this was coming, warns of this very thing.
Prov. 7: 21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. 22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; 23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life. 24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. 25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. 26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
I simply believe what is written.
Rom. 2: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
And you clearly do not.
You know what our conversation was, and anyone can go to the thread and see what was written. You don't want to talk about what was discussed in an honest way, that is fine.
I only know what you said to me. You seem to have changed your tune after my post to you, that you refused to even acknowledge. I'm glad you have changed your position that Paul wasn't speaking of himself, or the Body of Christ when He said "they are all under sin". And also, that you now seem to understand that we are no better than they, in that God is no respecter of persons, and we are all judged by the Same God, by the SAME Standards, For God, "Who will render to every man according to his deeds", have given both Jew and Gentile His Gospel, just as HE gave Israel.
Yes, included. But there was a lot more to the "Faithfulness" of the Bible, than trusting God would forgive them. As the Christ tells us.
Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
And we all have the religious voices in the garden God placed us in telling men, "Thou shall surely not die". But the Faithful didn't listen to them.
I am not interested in your, or this world's religions definition of a "Righteous man". A human child is created "by God" to walk. But in order to walk, he must first fall. It is the child's earnest desire to walk, that allows him to overcome falling. This was a creation of God. The Childs goal from his heart, is to walk. The child falls and cries, he hurts himself, he bumps his head, but he never stops "pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God", which is to "Walk".
The "new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" is the same. The goal, from the heart, is Righteousness and true holiness. "To walk, even as Jesus walked". Now the Spirit of God knows there will be men who discourage this journey. And HE warns us not to be tricked or influenced by them.
1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Jesus said "SEEK" and Ye shall find. If I "SEEK" the Kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, shall I not find it? Or do you also preach this can not be accomplished as well?
But Adam listened to her that was unfaithful, and followed her instruction, not God's. In like manner, Jesus was also surrounded by the Unfaithful woman. And for over 20 years was influenced to listen to her, and the religious traditions, doctrines and commandments of men she promoted, "in God's Name". But Jesus resisted against her. He didn't listen to her even though she said she claimed to be married to God.
So isn't Abraham and Paul and Caleb all examples of this. The carnal mind comes first, then the Spiritual? The fall comes first, then the ability to walk. The Sin comes first, then repentance.
What is the difference between the Holy One of Israel's appeals to Abraham, and the Christ's appeal to His Disciples?
Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Matt. 16: 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
That is certainly what this world's religions tried to convince Jesus and His Disciples to do. But Peter told them "We ought to obey God, rather than man". And Jesus told the deceiver "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", and Paul said, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.".
Where else would I go?
John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
No,no, no; I'm only speaking about non-divine humans, sinners all - some are demonic reprobate people of the evil one and some are sinful people of His kingdom.
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civic
Well-known member
- So simple on the contrary!
dwight92070
Well-known member
Obviously you or anyone is free to honor the 7th day as a "sabbath" rest, as Paul said in Roman 14:5-6. And you are free to call it the Sabbath day, if you like, but the actual Sabbath commanded by God wasn't instituted by Him until shortly after the children of Israel crossed through the Red Sea. So the original and genuine Sabbath day didn't even exist until about 2700 years after creation in Exodus 16:23-30. There is no Biblical record of God even creating the word "Sabbath" until then, even though He rested on the 7th day of creation. He never commanded Adam and Eve or anyone before Moses to observe a sabbath rest on the 7th day.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 (Moses is speaking about the Law) "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb (Mt. Sinai). The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."
So the sabbath was never commanded or instituted by God until the time of Moses. Nor was it given to any other nation besides Israel. This is also how we know that when Jesus said in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man", He was speaking of Israeli men, NOT all men. The Law was never given to non-Israeli's. Yes, non- Israeli's could convert to Judaism and become part of Israel. But it's too bad that you think God is a respecter of persons, because He didn't give the Sabbath to ALL men. But you'll have to deal with your own attitude on that one. God can do whatever He wants, with or without our permission.
He also chose Israel to be the ONLY nation through whom the blessing of Abraham and the Messiah came. Is He a respecter of persons for doing that too? The Bible assures us that God is good, so I wouldn't be so quick to accuse Him of wrongdoing, just because you don't like what He did. We know that it was ALWAYS God's plan to bless the whole world through Israel, which is what the promise to Abraham was all about.
Genesis 12:3 "... And in you (Abraham) all the families of the earth will be blessed." Does that sound like God is a respecter of persons? I don't think so.
Then the Sabbath day commandment and ALL of the Law came to an end at Christ's death on the cross.
On the night before He was crucified, Jesus told His disciples, "this is the new covenant in My blood" Luke 22:20 On the cross the old covenant was ending and the new covenant was beginning. When He died on the cross and cried out, "It is finished", the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, signifying not only that His sacrifice was completed to forgive all of man's sins, but that the old covenant was finished and the new covenant had begun.
Hebrews 9:16 says "For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it."
You are correct, originally the new covenant was ONLY given to Israel. Remember Jesus said, "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." But we know that it was always God's plan to eventually open up the new covenant to ALL men, Jew or Gentile. That was NEVER true of the old covenant. However, ANY GENTILE was free to convert to the God of Israel under the old covenant. We see God revealing His plan (to reach Gentiles too)to Peter in a vision in Acts 10. Does that sound like God is a respecter of persons?
I don't despise the Sabbath. I despise the doctrine that tells us we are still commanded to keep the Sabbath, when the Bible tells us no such thing.
When I said that God never used the word "Sabbath" for over 2700 years, I thought it was obvious that I was referring to His recorded words in the Bible. But you took it wrong, so you could make a sarcastic remark. Your opinions and beliefs are not supported at all by your bad attitude.
We, the church, are His house, under the new covenant and Jesus never commanded His house, that is His disciples, to observe the Sabbath. In fact, it appears He went out of His way to deliberately violate it, primarily to let everyone know that not only was He not obligated to keep it, but neither were His disciples. Of course, this infuriated the Pharisees, and it still bugs "Sabbath keepers" today.
Ephesian 2:15 "... having abolished in His flesh (on the cross) the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances ..."
You have made me rethink this verse, and I acknowledge that you could be right. It seems to say that the Law itself was abolished but we know that Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. So it appears that what was abolished, as the verse says, was the enmity caused by the Israeli's violation of the Law. However, we do know that the Law was rendered obsolete - Hebrews 8:13 It was very good and helpful to the Israelites during the time it was in effect, but when the New Covenant came, it was no longer laws that the Israelites were to live under.
It doesn't matter how many time the word "Sabbath" is used in the New Testament. What matters is that Jesus NEVER commanded His disciples, who we are, to keep it.
Even though the Law is now obsolete, Paul tells us that we can and should use it for our instruction. Look how many times the New Testament authors quote the Law - tons of times. We can learn much about God, His character, what pleases Him and what doesn't, and His dealings with man from the old covenant. It is also the Word of God. But when Jesus came, God told His apostles, and by extension US to "Listen to Him". In these last days, the author of Hebrews says, God has spoken to us through His Son. So we don't discard the old covenant, but we don't live under it, which is true for the Sabbath observance.
Rom. 5: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Just to be clear. It matters little to me that one man esteems one day over another man. I am not seeking the Kingdom of men, or man's righteousness. Truly the religious "MEN" of this world certainly have their own high days that they Esteem above other days and have for centuries. They esteem Christmas, Halloween, Easter, Day of the Dead, St. Patrick's Day, Hanukkah, the list goes on and on, above other days. And there are men who don't esteem any day over other days.
So to be clear, I strive to Honor the 7th Day of the Week, because the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, that the Jesus of the Bible said to know was "Eternal Life", told me that the 7th Day of the Week was "HIS" Sabbath, and that HE Esteemed this Day above the other 6 Days of the Week.
It wasn't until I studied the Holy scriptures that Paul said was trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.", that I came to this conclusion. As Paul said, let him be convinced in his own mind.
So given I trust this God, and want to be Faithful to Him, I don't consider all the manmade high days that this world's religions "Esteem above other days". But since the God of the Bible "Esteemed" HIS Sabbath above other days, and Commanded that I also, remember to Keep this Day Holy that HE Esteemed, then I am convinced in my mind that I too, should Honor Him by accepting His Instruction regarding this Day. After all, He is God and who am I to reject Him, or His Sabbath Day that HE Esteemed above other days.
Jesus called it the Sabbath Day. And He is Lord even of the Sabbath, so given HE is Lord of this Sabbath, He should know what it's called, and who it is for. At least, I am convinced in my Mind that the Jesus "of the Bible" knows what HE is talking about.
I would be careful about making claims you have no knowledge to make. The Sabbath, as the Jesus of the Bible calls it, was "Made for man" not man for the Sabbath. And this is the perfect truth from creation. Because God didn't create His 7th Day Rest, until after HE created man. And of course, He didn't. What good was a Sabbath Rest, that Jesus said was created for men, if it was created before men even existed?
Furthermore, it is written in the God Inspired Holy Scriptures;
Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
How can you make the claim that Adam, Noah, or Abraham didn't know about God's 7th day Rest that HE Blessed and Sanctified? Who did HE bless it for? Who did HE Sanctify it for? Jesus said He created it for Men. Was Noah and Abraham not men? And even if a man is promoting the hogwash that God's Sabbath was only make for Jews, was Abraham not the father of the Jews? Why would God exclude him? There is nothing in the entire Scriptures which even implies that HE did.
Furthermore, we know that Noah knew what animals were clean and what animals were unclean, even though it was not written down when God showed him. How did Noah know these things if God didn't tell him? And Cain knew it was wrong to kill his brother? How did Cain know this? And Abimelec knew about God's issue with adultery. How did he know these things. I think the answer is simple. Since Noah and Abraham were friends of God, it seems God told them what was important to Him, His Laws, Statutes, Commandments and such. In fact, it seems rather silly to promote the religious philosophy that the only commandments, statutes, and laws of God, that Abraham obeyed, were the ones that were written down in the Book of Genesis.
How many Law, Statutes, Charges and Commandments of God are written down in Abraham and Noah's Time? 2???
Gen 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
What is God's Judgment? What is God's definition of Justice?
It's foolish, almost absurd, to base a religious philosophy entirely on the assumption that the only Words God spoke to Noah and Abraham, were the Word's written in scriptures. And yet, this is the foundation of your entire Doctrine.
Religious men of this world might try and make this argument to justify a religion which despises and/or rejects a day that God Esteemed above other days. But there is no Biblical foundation at all for such a belief. At least not in the Holy scriptures that I have found. I am open to see a Scriptures if you can find one. But so far, in this post anyway, you have provided nothing.
With this leaven as the very foundation of your religious philosophy, what purpose would there be to continue? If you want to preach that God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments He gave to Abraham, were not the same Laws, Statutes and Commandments HE gave to Abraham Children, you are free to do so. But I am not interested in giving you a platform to do so.
dwight92070
Well-known member
You are a very confused person, and no wonder, because you claim that Jesus told you that the 7th day of the week was His sabbath. How did that happen? A vision, a dream, maybe He came to you in the night? You may have seen or heard someone, but it wasn't Jesus. The very fact that you claim that Jesus told you something that He never said in the Bible, proves you are not to be trusted. You come across like you have everything correct in your "theology", but all the rest of us are just "religious men of this world", simply because we don't agree with you. You show little respect and love for us, who are followers of Jesus, even though Jesus told us to love one another. You come across like someone in a cult, like Joseph Smith, who said that God told him (see? God "spoke" to him too, just like Jesus "spoke" to you) that all religions were an abomination to Him, and therefore he, Joseph, would have to start THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION. You are up on your religious platform, like some kind of a wise guru and all the rest of us are way below you and cannot attain to your "wisdom" without agreeing with your every word.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Here's how I guess it happened:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Don't you see Praise Yeshua? We are this world's religious men with this world's religious philosophy. Studyman is above that, so if we disagree with him, he is being persecuted and shamed. We only use this world's religious definitions, but Studyman is the ONLY one on this forum who is really interested in what the Holy Scriptures teach. We are part of the "many" who come in Christ's name, into the world that God placed him in that don't believe his words. Jesus told him to "take heed" of men like us, just like Jesus told him that the 7th day was His Sabbath, even though He never said that in the Bible.
Dizerner
Well-known member
And here's how it happened that I don't keep the Sabbath:
In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb. 8:13 NKJ)
dwight92070
Well-known member
First of all, the name of Jesus is not even in the Old Covenant and second, Jesus never made such a statement in the New Covenant, third, Jesus is never recorded as resting on the Sabbath, He said that He worked every day, just like His Father, fourth, He actually violated the Sabbath many times and even commanded the man on the pallet to carry his pallet, which violated the Sabbath, fifth, Paul is very clear that we are not under the Law, which includes the Sabbath, and sixth, you are free to keep what you call a "Sabbath" if you want, but you are not free, to condemn other Christians who don't agree with you, and accuse them of following "this world's religious philosophy", just because we believe we are not obligated to keep the Sabbath.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Didn't you keep the dietary laws though? Apologies if I'm mixing you up with someone else.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It's not in the ceremonial or even moral laws. It's in the 10 commandments. But, by all means, go out and murder somebody since the 10 commandments don't matter anymore. Just not me, thank you.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I feel they are healthier, yes, and do abide by that diet, but not because I believe I am obligated to keep them. Just like Romans 14:5 says, we are free to keep one day out of seven , or not, we are free to eat (certain foods) or not. And I certainly don't preach that all people should abide by that diet. Let each man be convinced in his own mind.
dwight92070
Well-known member
That shows that you didn't read my previous posts and how little you know about the relationship between the Law of Moses and the New Covenant. Any laws in the Old Covenant that show up in the New Covenant are there because they are moral laws. Nine out of the ten commandments are moral laws and are repeated in the New Covenant. The Sabbath law is not repeated in the New Covenant. It is a ceremonial law. We know that because Paul lists the weekly Sabbath day law along with the annual feast days and the monthly new moon days, all of which are ceremonial laws. Colossians 2:16
The majority of the 613 laws in the Law of Moses are NOT repeated in the New Covenant, and therefore, the Jews are no longer obligated to keep them. The Gentiles were NEVER obligated to keep them in the first place, because they were only given to Israel.
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