Could it be happening now ?

Some have made light of the possibility of suffering persecution (tribulation) saying why would the groom being Jesus allow his bride to get beat up?
Remember that the discipline of ALL HIS legitimate children being trained to be righteous is harsh, akin to being tied to the post and being whipped, scourged, with the cat of nine tails, Heb 12:5-11, 6 and 8 in particular.

No innocent suffers or dies.
Only the guilty suffers or dies.
 
Remember that the discipline of ALL HIS legitimate children being trained to be righteous is harsh, akin to being tied to the post and being whipped, scourged, with the cat of nine tails, Heb 12:5-11, 6 and 8 in particular.

No innocent suffers or dies.
Only the guilty suffers or dies.
Are you saying Jesus was not innocent ?
 
Christians will escape the seven-year nightmare of the Tribulation.

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that one of the coming great events in the fulfillment of prophecy concerns the Church. This is the personal, bodily return of the Lord to remove from earth His waiting Church and to reward them according to their works. This will take place before the Tribulation period during which time the judgments of God will be poured out upon the unbelieving world.

I believe there are more Scriptures to support the imminent return of Christ for His Church prior to the Tribulation than during or after it: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 3:10.
 
I'm a little confused by the words of Praise Yeshua and Studyman. Are either of you advocating the literal keeping of the Sabbath? Are either of you Seventh Day Adventist?
Jesus walked in the commandments of God, including God's sabbath. Not the Pharisees Sabbath, or the Catholic Sabbath, but God's Sabbath. Jesus was not a 7th Day Adventist, neither was Paul, who promoted the Holy Scriptures " for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". The religions of this world have always, as the Christ tells us "rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted".

Just because the religious businesses and corporation of the world God placed us in reject, despise and pollute God's Sabbaths, doesn't mean they weren't created for us.
When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man ... ", He obviously was speaking of the Israelites, not all mankind.

If Jesus wanted me to believe His Father is a respecter of persons, treating men differently according to the DNA they were born with, I'm convinced HE would tell me. The Laws that were given by the God of the Bible, were for both the Homeborn (Jew) and the Stranger (Non-Jew) that sojourned with them. Gentile are to be Grafted into this Tree, not one of their own making.

He NEVER commanded anyone other than the Israelites to observe the Sabbath.

By this same logic, that promotes God as a respecter of persons, "Loving your neighbor as yourself", was also only commanded to Israelites. And the New covenant of God was "ONLY" given to the Israelites.

Why do men despise God's Sabbath so much? Rom. 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

One advantage of God's Holy Sabbath Fast is revealed in Isaiah 58: 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Perhaps if the Pharisees had humbled themselves to God, they would not have been deceived about who they were.
Even though God rested on the 7th day, He never even used the word "Sabbath" until over 2700 years after that, just after the Exodus.

So let me get this right. You know God so well, that you can preach to others that HE never used the word Sabbath for 2700 years? Fascinating. Can you show me where God taught Noah the difference between clean and Unclean animals? Yet HE knew. Can you show me where God told King Abimelech about Adultery? Yet he knew as well. Perhaps you might admit you don't know what God spoke to many in those days, and certainly the Bible doesn't contain the only Words God used.

Here is what HE Inspired Isaiah to write about His Commandments.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

And the Sabbath of God is certainly a part of HIS House.

Also Paul said that the Laws of Moses were nailed to the cross of Jesus.

No, he didn't.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Where is there a mention of God's Laws HE gave to Moses? What LAW of God condemned Jesus to death? Whose Law condemned Him?

John 19: 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

What LAW of God was AGAINST Jesus and Paul?

Consider the following.

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,

So in the religious philosophy you have adopted, GOD, His Father was the principalities and powers that Jesus Spoiled, even though His Law didn't condemn Jesus, but the Pharisees "Commandments of Men" Jesus said they taught for Doctrines, did condemn Him.

" he made a shew of them openly",

So in the religious philosophy you have adopted, Jesus made a show of God, HIS Father, openly, and not the Pharisees who tried to silence Him forever.

"triumphing over them in it."

So in the religious philosophy you have adopted, Jesus Triumphed over God, His Father on the Cross, and not over the principalities and powers of this world that condemned Him to death, then killed Him.

Look, I know we have both been placed in a world in which religions exit. Just as the Israelites in the Exodus that God had written for our example. I only advocate that you consider the warning about the "many" who come in Christ's Name to deceive and consider that maybe Jesus knew what HE was talking about.

The only exceptions were moral laws that never change, which is why several of them were repeated in the New Covenant, but the Sabbath command was NOT repeated.

The word Sabbath is repeated in the New Testament alone, 55 times. The word Covet is repeated 4 times.

I get it, the Sabbath Commandment is reviled by this world's religions, and always have. Even the 7 Day Adventists are working 24/7 building a mammoth religious business. And unless there is a desire from the heart to know God, which Jesus Himself said was eternal life, the commandments of God will mean nothing. I get that many won't be persuaded, because Jesus said so.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But nevertheless, I am sharing the perspective of a man who believes all that is written.
 
Yes but I have read many times through the years many pretrib believers don't believe they'll ever have to endure physical persecution.
well i am not many pretib romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

I will not experience the wrath of God as long as i am in Him and i have been for 28 years or so . have no plans to jump off ship
 
But for me, I am a man prone to sin. God's Instruction in righteousness (Commandments) was made for me. His Sabbath Fast was made for me, according to the Jesus of the Bible. And Jesus did become a man for me, but not in the same way. He became a man to show me "the way that a man should go".

Which is why you can't accomplish what you claim to accomplish. Christ did what you can't do.
 

You responses seem disjointed. You claim empowerment and then deny the result of that empowerment in the same post.

I mentioned this in another thread in the Arminian and Calvinism forum. I don't believe you are actually paying attention to what Romans 3 says.

Notice.... "they have become". Notice, "they have gone out of the way".

Having lead the multitude out of Egypt, God afterward destroyed them that believed not. The righteousness of God is passed from faith to faith. There has never been a Jew nor heir to that wasn't faithful. That faithfulness includes trusting God for forgiveness. Righteous men fail. You're appealing to words that indicate the lack of faith that resulted in humanity much later than the fall of Adam. Adam was righteous. He trusted God.

You need to reconsider your position.
 
Jesus walked in the commandments of God, including God's sabbath. Not the Pharisees Sabbath, or the Catholic Sabbath, but God's Sabbath.

Jesus was/is the Law Giver.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Notice the words "IS LORD" of the sabbath. When you own everything, you don't have to ask someone else if it is okay to do something or NOT.

I believe that you'll have to deal with this personally with Jesus one day. You can explain to Him your requirements.
 
Could this be the agreement that ushers in the time if Jacob’s Trouble ?

 
Yes but I have read many times through the years many pretrib believers don't believe they'll ever have to endure physical persecution. Even the Left Behind movies play it out this way and the Thief in the Night films done in the late 70's. Don't be left behind and suffer persecutions from the Anti-Christ.

Some have made light of the possibility of suffering persecution (tribulation) saying why would the groom being Jesus allow his bride to get beat up? Their way of thinking is based on their American expertise. They've never endured what others have for their faith and they lose sight of the fact other people have.


So why does this have to be Pre-Trib or pre tribulation (persecution) Jesus said in this world we will suffer persecution, tribulation. That's what the Greek word is for tribulation it's persecution. The Greek word for WRATH is different.

My point. I see Rev 6:1-14 as tribulation. From Rev 6: 15 onwards and into chapter 7 is the wrath of God starting. Tribulation, persecution one can see towards the saints in Rev 6:12....not the wrath of God for God doesn't persecute his own people.
- If I am not wrong, America is like a small continent regularly and more frequently hit by natural catastrophes!
- You can't start a fire without paying the consequences!
- And when you get natural catastrophes, people also die!
- And it can be anybody!
 
this post has gone to left field
- I don't care about politics!
- Apart that, when you look at America, from Europe, there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats, they belong to right field!
- And in Russia, left wing!
- But in both cases and all cases, it is only about money!
- They all put the earth on fire!
- It will burn anyway, it is only sooner or later!
- Fortunately, Yah.weh won't let them burn it completely!
 
- I don't care about politics!
- Apart that, when you look at America, from Europe, there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats, they belong to right field!
- And in Russia, left wing!
- But in both cases and all cases, it is only about money!
- They all put the earth on fire!
- It will burn anyway, it is only sooner or later!
- Fortunately, Yah.weh won't let them burn it completely!
so what does this have to do with the price of tea in china ?
 
so what does this have to do with the price of tea in china ?
- We all breathe the same air!
- We drink the same water!
- We live on the same earth!
- All human beings are destroying the earth!
- The Bible says they are going to pay for that!
- The more we pollute the earth, the more people are dying every day!
- They can't even prevent their children from living in worse conditions than what they were given by their parents!
- What a shame!
- It's time for Yah.weh and his kingdom to put everything back in order as it should have always been!
- End of the human story!
- Beginning of Yah.weh's kingdom!
- And throw away all human corruption!
- And put everywhere Yah.weh's incorruption!
- Yah.weh must just push the button to start the war!
- Then everybody will see what a war is!

mene, mene, tekel, upharsin​

or

numbered, numbered, weighed, and divided!
 
I really appreciate that.

This is entirely possible, but I don't think so for this reason: I believe that Rev 19 through 21 are contiguous. There are several places where Revelation goes back and covers the same time period over again, but I don't believe that is the case here. I believe that the second coming happens in 19, then the 1000 years and Judgement in 20, and the New Heaven and Earth and the beginning of eternity in 21. That puts the 1000 years after the destruction of this world, not in the current age. I do believe that Satan is bound here on Earth (ie: he cannot return to Heaven as he did in Job), but he is free to torment and attack the Church and non-believers continually (he is constantly roaming around like a lion seeking whom he can devour). And if I am reading the parable of the soils correctly, the second and third soil (rocks and thorns) resulted in saved souls that were attacked by Satan and tempted back into condemnation (as James 5:19-20 indicates).
I see what you're saying, and you too could be correct. But what about these two issues?:
Peter said that the earth would be burned up on the day of the Lord, which we know is the 2nd coming of Christ. So if the earth is burned up, how could there be 1000 more years on the earth? Also I think Peter would have definitely mentioned the literal 1000 year period before the heavens and the earth were burned, if it was factual.
Jesus said that His 2nd coming would be the "last day" and it wouldn't make sense that He was speaking symbolically here, because He said, "And I Myself will raise him up on the last day" - nothing symbolic there. So if the 2nd coming is, in fact, the last day, then there cannot be 1000 years after that.
 
Correct. Which is why Christ was made a man for man.

It is true that the popular religious philosophy of this world you are promoting is truly seductive. And has been a great marketing strategy for this world's religious businesses and corporations, bringing to pass some of the wealthiest and most powerful religious businesses ever to exist on the planet. However, given that I am seeking the Salvation that comes from the Christ "of the Bible", I will submit myself to His Teaching. Though not as popular as the religious philosophy you are promoting, it is His Salvation and therefore seems prudent to follow HIS instruction regarding it.
 
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