Could it be happening now ?

[praise_yeshua]

Exactly. The Earth is destroyed at His second coming, and then the 1000 years takes place in Heaven. That is the wedding celebration for Christ and the Church. Only those who are in the Church will be part of the first resurrection, that will occur at His second coming and before the 1000 years.

I believe Hebrews contradicts this.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is referencing the unity of the work of God in the "Bride". How do you reconcile what you say above to this verse.

 

[Doug Brents]

I believe Hebrews contradicts this.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is referencing the unity of the work of God in the "Bride". How do you reconcile what you say above to this verse.

Thank you for pointing that out, you are correct. I misspoke saying that only the Church will be part of the first resurrection. "They" in this verse are all of those who are members of the "Faith Hall of Fame" as Hebrews 11 is often called. These will not be made perfect until we of the New Testament age are made perfect with them. All of those who were saved under the OT, as well as those saved under the NT, will be included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-5). We will all participate in the 1000 years in Heaven.

 

[JLG]

- We must always be ready!
- But at the same time we must keep telling about Yah.weh's word!
- A short time is left for action!
- Thus let's keep being active!
- Yah.weh's kingdom will only bring more activities!
- If we are ready to work for Yah.weh, it's not going to change anything!
- We will keep working for Yah.weh!
- If it doesn't happen tomorrow, it will happen the day after, if not the day after, it will be another day and so on!
- It must happen when we are busy working for Yah.weh!
- We shouldn't walk with human eyes as human beings usually do!
It only brings disillusion!

 

[Frank Russell]

The Bible itself uses a word that is "rapturo" in Latin, which obviously is where we get our word "rapture". The English translation is "caught up"and this word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up (rapturo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ..."
So the Bible does speak of a rapture, but it says NOTHING about the "secret rapture" that John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, invented. That is the Left Behind deception, where believers will just disappear and if they were piloting a plane, it will crash. If they were driving a car and then disappear, it too will crash. Believing doctors who are performing surgeries will suddenly disappear and their patients will die. NONSENSE! That gives the REAL rapture a bad name.
What about the real rapture? Won't those same things happen? Well, we cannot say for sure, but I doubt it, because if we're here and alive when Jesus returns, we will be visibly caught up into the clouds with the Lord. We will not disappear. What about planes and cars, etc.? Won't they crash? I don't think so. The very fact that the Lord will catch us up into the clouds means that, at least for us, gravity will be suspended. Even though only unbelievers will be left, I don't see God being sadistic and reveling in the sight of unbelievers in planes and cars crashing, or patients in surgery dying. Sadly, however, the unbelievers will still face judgment and ultimately hell.

In general, when you analyze a common gospel presentation nowadays, the terminology of rapture has replaced the resurrection at the end.

So the use of the word rapture regardless of it's latin origins is part of teaching "another gospel." This idea of spiritual escapism is an addition that tells people they can escape persecution.

To do this, it invents a "7 year period" when Revelation already has two 3.5 times juxtaposed next to one another.

 

[Frank Russell]

We must always be ready!

Agreed, the whole "Jesus is coming, look busy" idea sounds funny on a T-Shirt, but makes bad theology.

 

[Ezra]

This idea of spiritual escapism is an addition that tells people they can escape persecution.

will we go through the things like peter john the others went through? i dont know but there is physical persecutions taking place in other countries. is there spirit going on today? yes look at our Government courts and laws . the rapture will take place when God says its time. .not a second sooner

 

[Ezra]

Agreed, the whole "Jesus is coming, look busy" idea sounds funny on a T-Shirt, but makes bad theology.

it says occupy till i come.. which means be about the fathers business ..that is correct theology

 

[JLG]

Agreed, the whole "Jesus is coming, look busy" idea sounds funny on a T-Shirt, but makes bad theology.

- Well, not just look busy, but really be busy!

 

[Ezra]

- Well, not just look busy, but really be busy!

that was my point

 

[Grace ambassador]

Are these really the signs of the times ?

Precious friend, I personally don't believe so, imho, but could be mistaken...

Is the rapture and return of Christ imminent?

Depends on how these are defined / applied:

(1) Mystery Coming of Christ, to "meet Him in the air" [ aka rapture ]

For The Body Of Christ to be "taken home to Heaven"?​

Yes, imminent ( could be 'At Any Moment', No signs needed! )

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

(2) Prophesied "return of Christ" All of the way back to the earth, for

Judgment of the Unbelieving nations and Salvation of Israel?​

No, not imminent, as this will occur [ possibly six - see post # 163 ( 69 should be 70 ), or ]
seven years [ accompanied with 'the signs of the times' ], after the above, (1), occurs.

Differences and Distinctions are here:

Great Grace Departure!​

Are we about to enter into the time of Jacob’s Trouble , the great tribulation period ?

We, the Body Of Christ, if the above is true, are not about to enter. However, if these are
"the last days" of God's 'Age Of Grace,' And the imminent rapture occurs, then they, the
Unbelieving world, will be "about to enter."

I can see how they come up with them. I'm not a date guy. But I do think there will be signs as Jesus said in Matthew 24 and the wise men from the east saw the signs in the sky ( the star ) which indicated the 1st coming of the Messiah. And it appears there will be similar signs in the heavens that will indicate His 2nd Coming is near. Scripture talks about the Sun , the moon and the stars all having being affected supernaturally in the last days prior to His Return.

Luke 21:25-26. “There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and​

upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves​

roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things​

which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."​

​

Yes, these are "the signs of the times" of Jacob's ( Israel's ) Troubles, which is still yet future,
as God Has Brought His Body [ of Christ ] Through 'infirmities, sufferings, pain, persecutions,
sicknesses, trials, afflictions, and troubles', By Grace, for the past 2000 years! Amen?

Precious friend, @civic, thanks so much for your 'positive' encouragement
about my study:

Great Grace Departure!

Hope this also helps others to be Very Richly Encouraged Edified, and
Comforted In The Lord Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided.

Amen.

 

[Frank Russell]

- Well, not just look busy, but really be busy!

that was my point

Mine too, if regular humans notice when someone is just keeping up appearances, how much more will God?

 

[DavP]

Are these really the signs of the times ?

That video is not Biblical, but instead is mostly sensationalism and date setting.

The final 70th "one week" of Daniel 9 hasn't started yet. It does not involve some philosophical speculation with the "abomination of desolation" (AoD). The AoD event was prophesied for the end by Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse, and is about an IDOL being setup in false worship in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem. As Zechariah 6 reveals that Messiah is to build the temple when He arrives, the orthodox Jews are waiting on Messiah to come, which is why they have been busy in Jerusalem for decades preparing the materials and artifacts for the 3rd temple. The building of the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem is one of major kick-off Signs for the start of the 1st half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (7 years divided into two 1260 periods). The actual time of "great tribulation" is with the latter half of that "one week". And the 1290 days, and 1335 days, are for after... the latter 1260 day tribulation. But alas! Jesus said He shortened the time of tribulation for His elect's sake.

 

[JLG]

that was my point

- Good!
- Precision is important to express our ideas!

 

[Rockson]

i put absolutely No stock in stuff like this. me personally i am about %85 pre trib. due to the fact paul wrote God has not appointed us to wrath but obtain salvation. the %15 the way i see things going headed in the direction it is... parts of me wonder.. if the great tribulation. is pure hell on earth. how much worse can it get ?

As for me I don't hold to a Pre-Tribulation belief, although something similar. And I don't say this to strengthen your Pre-Trib position but you say 15% of you is doubting Pretrib is because you wonder how much more bad can it get? Here's how bad it can get and still not be the wrath of God. There could come great persecutions in the land towards godly Christians.

Really though in Rome in the 1 Century and beyond they arrested Christians and did unspeakable things to them in mass. They were fed to the lions in the Coliseum plus other things. I don't think it would take much for at least a certain number of current day believers to give up their faith. All it would take is the simple taking away their goods as Paul talked about in Heb 10:34 . (that is if Paul wrote Hebrews)

He said they took joyfully the spoiling of their goods meaning their physical possessions. knowing they had a place in God's kingdom not setting their affections on things below. Today some would say....you take away my standard of living Jesus that I've worked so hard to attain and we're DONE! One favorite scripture of my is just a few brief words...."quit you like men" 1 Cor 16:13 basically meaning MAN UP, or God encouraging us not to be wimps.

So we're to MAN UP and not be MAN OVERBOARD. Sadly if real tough times comes many will jump off the ship and swim on to shore. It's kind of like the character Pliable in Pilgrim's Progress.....get's to the swamp of despondency with Christian

and NOPE that's it for me. You want to go down that road Christian that's fine for you! I'm going back to the city of Destruction! So we need to know what we're committed to and be joyful about it. We have great rewards anyway in the next world to come.

 

[Ezra]

We have great rewards anyway in the next world to come.

yes we do i gave my stance on pre trib with scripture.. BUTTT i will never say we wont suffer or face physical persecutions. Hebrews 11 tells us Christians did suffer for their faith. Polly carp was hunted down at a old age burnt at the stake . William Tyndale burnt at the stake for printing the Bible. peter crucified upside down apostle paul beheaded i thinks james was to i cant remember .. saying all that some will say pre trib means we wont suffer . that is false teaching . pre trib means we will not suffer the wrath of God when he punishes the lost. and he pours out his wrath to destroy by fire. either way its in his hands as look at the the Bok of Rev. it is written in 3 forms future past present we have to understand which part were in. i have heard it stated that Chernobyl was a seal or opened i disagree . either way end times unfold we have no control of how or when it happens

 

[Ezra]

Sadly if real tough times comes many will jump off the ship and swim on to shore. It's kind of like the character Pliable in Pilgrim's Progress.....

possible BUT was they truly saved ? yes i have had the teaching presented to me also . far as that goes i see lots jumping off the ship today. Church attendance is way down ( no going to Church alone is not the key) Abiding in Christ is for those who feel Church attendance is not important or there cup of tea, why was the Book of acts wrote? day of Pentecost one place one accord.. they assembled themselves even in Jesus times they assembled themselves to listen to him.
i am very select on who i listen to and what i read . there is way to much slight wind of doctrine out there

 

[JLG]

- Simply looking backwards!
- 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years or more...how would it be possible to imagine what comes now?
- Unless we live it, we can't even imagine!
- And it's going to be the same tomorrow and so on!
- It's only more people are getting scared more and more!
- And it's only the beginning!
- Because we are going faster and faster!
- And nothing can stop the train!
- But it has always been so!
- Israel kept doing his own business away from yah.weh!
- And mankind is doing the same!
- It's only a repetition!
- And the politicians are the leaders who lead the people to destruction!
- They only think about the end of their mandates or about the new ones!
- The rest doesn't matter!
- That's good!
- Only more stupidity!
- How can they be so stupid and ridiculous!
- It was visible in the past!
- It is visible today!
- But who really cares?

 

[Rockson]

..... saying all that some will say pre trib means we wont suffer . that is false teaching .

Yes but I have read many times through the years many pretrib believers don't believe they'll ever have to endure physical persecution. Even the Left Behind movies play it out this way and the Thief in the Night films done in the late 70's. Don't be left behind and suffer persecutions from the Anti-Christ.

Some have made light of the possibility of suffering persecution (tribulation) saying why would the groom being Jesus allow his bride to get beat up? Their way of thinking is based on their American expertise. They've never endured what others have for their faith and they lose sight of the fact other people have.

pre trib means we will not suffer the wrath of God when he punishes the lost.

So why does this have to be Pre-Trib or pre tribulation (persecution) Jesus said in this world we will suffer persecution, tribulation. That's what the Greek word is for tribulation it's persecution. The Greek word for WRATH is different.

My point. I see Rev 6:1-14 as tribulation. From Rev 6: 15 onwards and into chapter 7 is the wrath of God starting. Tribulation, persecution one can see towards the saints in Rev 6:12....not the wrath of God for God doesn't persecute his own people.

 

[Ezra]

So why does this have to be Pre-Trib or pre tribulation (

why ask why? pre trib is what i lean towards just like osas vs osnas and pre trib and after trib or mod trib . its not in the Bible its what we base our belief on ..

 

[Studyman]

Yes. Christ our Sabbath. He became man for you.

It is true that this world's religions imply that Jesus became a man for you, so you don't have to. And if you are not a man, then God's Sabbath was not made for you. The examples God had written for men's admonition are not written for you. The Good works God before ordained that men should walk in them; they are also not made for you.

But for me, I am a man prone to sin. God's Instruction in righteousness (Commandments) was made for me. His Sabbath Fast was made for me, according to the Jesus of the Bible. And Jesus did become a man for me, but not in the same way. He became a man to show me "the way that a man should go".

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

To offer His Life for me, to give me a chance at repentance.

That I might "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

But given you have been convinced that there is no difference between the Pharisees religion and the Body of Christ, that they both are still under sin, and "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes", it is easy to understand you position on God's instruction in Righteousness.

I don't believe Jesus, or Paul shares your religious philosophy, and I know I don't. Nevertheless, it is good to share perspectives.