Could it be happening now ?

[Studyman]

That is what I thought. That is sad to me.....

So why isn't Jesus Christ your rest?

I'm speaking of the Christ "of the Bible".

The Christ "of the Bible" created all things, including the Sabbath of the Bible. He ordained beforehand that I should walk in it, according to Paul. He even said "I am Lord, even of the Sabbath Days". HE said it was created specifically for me.

The religions of this world have always despised God's Judgments and polluted His Sabbaths. Doing so "in His Name" didn't work for those men who called HIM Lord, in Matthew 7, why would I even tempt Him by adopting the same religious philosophy today? Even if it is popular.

The Sabbath pictures death.

You also preach of Paul and the Body of Christ, that there is no difference between them and the Pharisees. That the Body of Christ, "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."

No doubt you are convinced of these things, but I believe and advocate that men trust the Holy Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works", as Paul instructs.

God's "instruction in righteousness" was created for men, "that it may be well with them", and Paul teaches they were before ordained by God that we should walk in them. Are we still children of disobedience? Or have we "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

It is a rest from our works. It is why Abraham and his seed were circumcised on the 8th day and not the 7th. Circumcision is picture of the new birth. The Resurrection from the dead. New life. Christ died for us. Our Sabbath.

There is a truth here that you're missing. I wish you could know this.

I am not missing the religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting. I know it well, having once been a servant to it. I simply, through Faith/belief follow the instructions inspired by the Christ of the Bible, to "Yield Myself" to the Christ "of the Bible" and HIS Words. And now, by "reason of use", I understand why HE commanded them, and I am sharing my perspective that I was asked to provide.

The "New Birth" is not a "Child of Disobedience", as men were when they were dead in trespasses and sins, walking in the religions of this world. Though "many" who come in Christ's Name are convinced it is.

Perhaps you might consider the actual Words of the Christ, of the Bible, and ponder on their meaning.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[dwight92070]

That is what I thought. That is sad to me.....

So why isn't Jesus Christ your rest?

The Sabbath pictures death. It is a rest from our works. It is why Abraham and his seed were circumcised on the 8th day and not the 7th. Circumcision is picture of the new birth. The Resurrection from the dead. New life. Christ died for us. Our Sabbath.

There is a truth here that you're missing. I wish you could know this.

This is true. And He also promised to take them out of the Land if they failed to keep His covenant, which they did fail to do. So they lost the Land, and there is no indication that He will bring them back to it.

I agree with you. Here are some fascinating verses:

John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

John 6:15 "So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself along."

Today we have Dispensationalists, following John Nelson Darby's invented doctrine, who want to take Jesus by force and make Him King of the world in Jerusalem for 1000 years. But He told us that His kingdom is not of this world or of this realm. Not only that, but He is already "the ruler of the kings of the earth" Revelation 1:5. He is already "the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16 and yet He is NOT sitting on a throne here on earth.

Luke 22:69 "From now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God."

Can you imagine Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God, asking His Father, "Will you excuse Me for 1000 years?"? Even though You have exalted Me and given Me the honor of sitting at Your right hand, the dispensationalists want me to go back to the earth and sit on a throne in Jerusalem for the millennium. Oh yes, also, even though My church is the temple of the Holy Spirit, they want Me to preside over another temple that they will build. One final thing, even though My sacrifice on the cross paid for all the sins of mankind, they want Me to preside over animal sacrifices being offered in that temple. But I'll be back here with You after the 1000 years."

Something tells me that all of these predictions by the dispensationalists approaches blasphemy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm speaking of the Christ "of the Bible".

The Christ "of the Bible" created all things, including the Sabbath of the Bible. He ordained beforehand that I should walk in it, according to Paul. He even said "I am Lord, even of the Sabbath Days". HE said it was created specifically for me.

Yes. Christ our Sabbath. He became man for you.

You also preach of Paul and the Body of Christ, that there is no difference between them and the Pharisees. [/B]

There is much there to deal with and I'm not going to do that here. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[dwight92070]

I'm a little confused by the words of Praise Yeshua and Studyman. Are either of you advocating the literal keeping of the Sabbath? Are either of you Seventh Day Adventist?

When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man ... ", He obviously was speaking of the Israelites, not all mankind. He NEVER commanded anyone other than the Israelites to observe the Sabbath. Even though God rested on the 7th day, He never even used the word "Sabbath" until over 2700 years after that, just after the Exodus. Also Paul said that the Laws of Moses were nailed to the cross of Jesus. The only exceptions were moral laws that never change, which is why several of them were repeated in the New Covenant, but the Sabbath command was NOT repeated.

 

[dwight92070]

I tend to not believe any prophecy that relates to a "rapture."

My reason is that there was a similar prophesied event among new age people in recent years: The idea of being wisked off to another dimension where all the good people are and the mean people being left in their own dimension produced the same type of responses that you would typically get from the Christian Churches.

From this example, I find the fruit exhibits a flesh reaction to stimuli, the responses are not spiritual at all.

The Bible itself uses a word that is "rapturo" in Latin, which obviously is where we get our word "rapture". The English translation is "caught up"and this word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up (rapturo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ..."
So the Bible does speak of a rapture, but it says NOTHING about the "secret rapture" that John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, invented. That is the Left Behind deception, where believers will just disappear and if they were piloting a plane, it will crash. If they were driving a car and then disappear, it too will crash. Believing doctors who are performing surgeries will suddenly disappear and their patients will die. NONSENSE! That gives the REAL rapture a bad name.
What about the real rapture? Won't those same things happen? Well, we cannot say for sure, but I doubt it, because if we're here and alive when Jesus returns, we will be visibly caught up into the clouds with the Lord. We will not disappear. What about planes and cars, etc.? Won't they crash? I don't think so. The very fact that the Lord will catch us up into the clouds means that, at least for us, gravity will be suspended. Even though only unbelievers will be left, I don't see God being sadistic and reveling in the sight of unbelievers in planes and cars crashing, or patients in surgery dying. Sadly, however, the unbelievers will still face judgment and ultimately hell.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm a little confused by the words of Praise Yeshua and Studyman. Are either of you advocating the literal keeping of the Sabbath? Are either of you Seventh Day Adventist?

When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man ... ", He obviously was speaking of the Israelites, not all mankind. He NEVER commanded anyone other than the Israelites to observe the Sabbath. Even though God rested on the 7th day, He never even used the word "Sabbath" until over 2700 years after that, just after the Exodus. Also Paul said that the Laws of Moses were nailed to the cross of Jesus. The only exceptions were moral laws that never change, which is why several of them were repeated in the New Covenant, but the Sabbath command was NOT repeated.

Keeping the Sabbath Holy is one of the 10 commandments. So I consider it equal in importance to the others. No, I am not SDA, and I disagree with several of their 28 points describing their beliefs. I also do not keep the Sabbath, though I would like to, but I will go so far as to say Sunday is definitely NOT the Sabbath, no matter which authority says so. The NT church may have assembled on the first day of the week, but that doesn't make it replace the Sabbath.

Would you then say the other commandments were for Israel, not mankind?

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree with you. Here are some fascinating verses:

John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

John 6:15 "So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself along."

Today we have Dispensationalists, following John Nelson Darby's invented doctrine, who want to take Jesus by force and make Him King of the world in Jerusalem for 1000 years. But He told us that His kingdom is not of this world or of this realm. Not only that, but He is already "the ruler of the kings of the earth" Revelation 1:5. He is already "the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16 and yet He is NOT sitting on a throne here on earth.

Luke 22:69 "From now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God."

Can you imagine Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God, asking His Father, "Will you excuse Me for 1000 years?"? Even though You have exalted Me and given Me the honor of sitting at Your right hand, the dispensationalists want me to go back to the earth and sit on a throne in Jerusalem for the millennium. Oh yes, also, even though My church is the temple of the Holy Spirit, they want Me to preside over another temple that they will build. One final thing, even though My sacrifice on the cross paid for all the sins of mankind, they want Me to preside over animal sacrifices being offered in that temple. But I'll be back here with You after the 1000 years."

Something tells me that all of these predictions by the dispensationalists approaches blasphemy.

Agreed. The millennium will be in Heaven after the physical universe is completely destroyed, the thousand year (symbolic for a very, very long time) wedding feast for Christ and His bride, the Church.

 

[civic]

Agreed. The millennium will be in Heaven after the physical universe is completely destroyed, the thousand year (symbolic for a very, very long time) wedding feast for Christ and His bride, the Church.

but in revelation after the 1000 years is up the devil will be released to decieve the nations one las time. How do you get around that ?

The new heavens and new earth are after that event.

Rev 20
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Doug Brents]

but in revelation after the 1000 years is up the devil will be released to decieve the nations one las time. How do you get around that ?

The new heavens and new earth are after that event.

Rev 20
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The abyss is a temporary holding place for Satan after the physical universe (in which he is held now) is destroyed. Satan could reenter Heaven (as he did in Job) up until Christ died. After that, he can no longer leave the physical world. But after the physical world is destroyed (2 Pet 3:10), Satan will be locked in the abyss until after the wedding celebration. Then he will be released (at the second resurrection) and cast into the lake of fire (Hell) for all eternity (the second death). These are just my thoughts and understanding, from my limited study of these predictions. I may be completely wrong, but none of the primary theories on what is to come really fit with what I see in Scripture. The idea of the earth continuing after the second coming is clear lunacy based on 2 Pet 3:10. I believe that the destruction of the Temple (AD70) is the final even that indicates the beginning of the tribulation (based on the prophecy of Jesus in Matt 24:4-14, so we are living in the tribulation NOW, and it will continue until the second coming.

 

[civic]

The abyss is a temporary holding place for Satan after the physical universe (in which he is held now) is destroyed. Satan could reenter Heaven (as he did in Job) up until Christ died. After that, he can no longer leave the physical world. But after the physical world is destroyed (2 Pet 3:10), Satan will be locked in the abyss until after the wedding celebration. Then he will be released (at the second resurrection) and cast into the lake of fire (Hell) for all eternity (the second death). These are just my thoughts and understanding, from my limited study of these predictions. I may be completely wrong, but none of the primary theories on what is to come really fit with what I see in Scripture. The idea of the earth continuing after the second coming is clear lunacy based on 2 Pet 3:10. I believe that the destruction of the Temple (AD70) is the final even that indicates the beginning of the tribulation (based on the prophecy of Jesus in Matt 24:4-14, so we are living in the tribulation NOW, and it will continue until the second coming.

In Revelations 19 where is the entire earth destroyed by fire at His 2nd Coming ?

Notice in Revelation 20 that the 1000 years follows after Revelation 19 and Christs 2nd Coming.

 

[Doug Brents]

In Revelations 19 where is the entire earth destroyed by fire at His 2nd Coming ?

Notice in Revelation 20 that the 1000 years follows after Revelation 19 and Christs 2nd Coming.

Exactly. The Earth is destroyed at His second coming, and then the 1000 years takes place in Heaven. That is the wedding celebration for Christ and the Church. Only those who are in the Church will be part of the first resurrection, that will occur at His second coming and before the 1000 years.

 

[civic]

Exactly. The Earth is destroyed at His second coming, and then the 1000 years takes place in Heaven. That is the wedding celebration for Christ and the Church. Only those who are in the Church will be part of the first resurrection, that will occur at His second coming and before the 1000 years.

ok thanks we just see a few things a bit differently but not the sequence.

 

[Doug Brents]

ok thanks we just see a few things a bit differently but not the sequence.

I am curious what you see differently. I do not claim to know everything about this, and would love to learn what you believe.

 

[civic]

I am curious what you see differently. I do not claim to know everything about this, and would love to learn what you believe.

I pretty much see it like Don Stewart describes it below- But I'm not dogmatic

Heaven And Earth Will Perish

The Bible says this cursed earth along with the present heavens will one day perish.

They will perish, but you endure; they will all wear out like a garment. You change them like clothing, and they pass away (Psalm 102:26).

New Heavens

The prophet Isaiah recorded God promising a new heavens and a new earth.

For I am about to create new heavens and a new earth; the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind (Isaiah 65:17).

The glorious promise of God is that this earth will be made new. This will be a reversal of the curse of Eden.

Jesus

Jesus spoke of the renewal of all things - the time when all things are made new.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28).

We have the same thing taught in the Book of Acts.

Who [Christ] must remain in heaven until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through His holy prophets (Acts 3:21).

When Will This Happen?
There is some debate among believers as to when this renewal will happen. There are those who believe the universal restoration will occur when Christ returns and sets up His Millennial kingdom - the thousand year reign on the earth. This view does not equate the renewal that Jesus spoke about with the making of the new heavens and new earth as was prophesied by Isaiah. This will come after the Millennium.

All Things New

The Bible says God will make all things new.

And the one who was seated on the throne said, "See, I am making all things new." Also He said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true" (Revelation 21:5).

The present order of creation will be replaced. In this new order, the only people who exist will be God's people. They will live in the closest of relationships.

No Part

Those who have not trusted God's promises will not take part.

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. . . . But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 21:8,27).

After Millennium

Scripture also says that this new heaven and a new earth will occur after the thousand year reign of Christ - the Millennium.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea (Revelation 21:1).

The new heavens and earth are different from the period of the Millennium. They will replace the old cursed creation.

Nothing accursed will be found there any more. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will worship Him (Revelation 22:3).

Pass Away
The present heavens, and the present earth will one day pass away. Peter wrote.

But by the same Word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed. Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire? But, in accordance with His promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home (2 Peter 3:7-13).

God, therefore will dissolve the old universe and make it new by means of fire. Many equate the renewal that Jesus spoke about with this event - the making of the new heavens and the new earth.

Our Hope
The hope of the believer is in an inheritance that will not fade away.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:3-5).

A City

Heaven is called a city.

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, He has prepared a city for them (Hebrews 11:16).

Still To Come
This city is lasting, it will not perish.

For here we have no lasting city, but we are looking for the city that is to come (Hebrews 13:14).

Not Realm Of God

The Bible speaks of three heavens. The first is the atmosphere around the earth, the second is the sun moon and stars, the third heaven is the presence of God. However all three of them will not pass away. The Scripture makes it clear that sin entered only the first and second heaven, not the realm of God. God's realm was untouched by sin and remains perfect. The physical universe, however, has to be renewed. Therefore it is the first and second heaven that will be changed.

Entirely New Or Renewed?

From the passages that speak of the renewal of the heaven and the earth, it is not clear what relationship the new will have with the old. Will the old heaven and earth be merely renewed, or will it be entirely replaced. There are passages that seem to teach both. Can both be true without this being a contradiction? The answer is yes. In some sense, that is beyond our human understanding, God will remake the old universe by dissolving its elements. The result will be a new universe without sin and corruption. Although it is new, it will have some connection with the old. As is the case with the resurrected body of the believer, there is some mystery in this process. What is clear is that the present heaven and earth will pass away in the form that they are presently in and God will make something new for believers to enjoy with Him.

Summary
When Adam and Eve sinned the earth became cursed. God promised to destroy the old earth and make something new. The future home of the believer will be in the new heavens and new earth. After the final judgment, God will remake the present universe and form a new one - a universe without any remembrance of sin. Though the exact relationship between the old and the new is not entirely clear, it is clear that the new universe will be without sin.

 

[dwight92070]

but in revelation after the 1000 years is up the devil will be released to decieve the nations one las time. How do you get around that ?

The new heavens and new earth are after that event.

Rev 20
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

First, I greatly respect Doug Brents. He seems to be a kindred spirit. But my understanding is different than his, and it does "get around that".
The symbolic 1000 years started at the cross and ends at the 2nd coming, so it represents the church age, which we are now in. Just like much of Revelation is symbolic, so, it appears, is the number 1000. If God had used the exact number of years in the church age, then we could easily calculate the year of His coming (or at least come pretty close), by simply adding that number to the year that Christ died. Since God doesn't want us to know the day or the hour (or I believe, even the year), He chose to use the number 1000, which as Doug said, represents a large number. Satan is not a literal dragon. He is not bound with a literal chain. The angel coming down out of heaven is Christ and He bound Satan when He submitted to death on the cross:

Col.2:15 "When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through it (the cross)
Heb.2:14 "... that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."
2 Tim.1:10 "... our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
1 John 3:8 "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
Matthew 12:29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

You are probably thinking, "But we don't see Satan bound today, especially with everything that's happening in the world."

But consider this: Before Christ came, there was only ONE nation that knew the true God. Israel - all the others were deceived by Satan. But when Christ came, He sent out His disciples into all the world to preach the gospel and thousands were delivered from their deception and turned to Jesus. For those people, Satan was bound, and is still being bound in their lives. Whenever or wherever the gospel is received, Satan is bound, and the people are set free!!! As we abide in Him, Satan is bound, and cannot touch us - unless God allows it, to test us, as He did Job. The gospel has infiltrated many nations and bound Satan for probably millions of people!!!

But apparently near the end of the church age, the church will be tested, because God will "release" Satan from his prison - Rev.20:3 and verses 7 and 8 -and he will once again deceive the nations and will "gather them together for the war" (verse8) against the saints and "fire will come down out of heaven and devour them"(verse 9). That fire IS the 2nd Coming of Christ, "when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, ..." (2 Thess.1:7)

We could very well be in that time when Satan has been released - we can't say for sure - but we do see the entire world being deceived with the COVID biological weapon being unleashed. Then add to that the deception that the COVID vaccine is helpful, when thousands have been injured and many have died from it. There has been deception before, but it seems that this deception is global.

There are many evil things happening: vaccinations being mandated or lose your job, lockdowns mandated, businesses closing, the Maui fire, with few answers there, food supplies and livestock being destroyed and killed by fires and other means, large amounts of chickens being destroyed, oil wells or refineries being burned, thousands of cattle perishing in huge barns, farmers being banned from using certain pesticides or fertilizer in the name of climate change, transgender issue being pushed down our throats, police being defunded, attorney generals allowing criminals to go free but jailing innocent people, parents who disagree with school boards are called terrorists, Ukraine getting billions while many Americans just get by, a totally open border, allowing America to be infiltrated by illegals, murderers, terrorists, rapists, drugs and drug pushers, trains being derailed,and the list goes on.

If it is true that we are in that time when Satan has been released, he is STILL BOUND in our lives individually as believers - we are not all of a sudden slaves to our sin again. However God may test us and our faith by allowing us to go through certain things - many have already been tested with the whole COVID issue, or other issues.

1 Peter 1:6-7 "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while,if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; ..."

What about Revelation 20:4 and 6 where it says that believers will reign with Christ during that 1000 years and that we'll be priests of God and of Christ? Well lets look at verses that tell us that that is true right now:

Ephesians 2:6 " ... and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ..."
1 Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign (and we're reigning with Him) until He has put all enemies under His feet."
John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, ..."
1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, ..."
Romans 5:17 We "will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

 

[Doug Brents]

I pretty much see it like Don Stewart describes it below- But I'm not dogmatic

Heaven And Earth Will Perish
The Bible says this cursed earth along with the present heavens will one day perish.

New Heavens
The prophet Isaiah recorded God promising a new heavens and a new earth.

The glorious promise of God is that this earth will be made new. This will be a reversal of the curse of Eden.

Jesus
Jesus spoke of the renewal of all things - the time when all things are made new.

We have the same thing taught in the Book of Acts.

When Will This Happen?
There is some debate among believers as to when this renewal will happen. There are those who believe the universal restoration will occur when Christ returns and sets up His Millennial kingdom - the thousand year reign on the earth. This view does not equate the renewal that Jesus spoke about with the making of the new heavens and new earth as was prophesied by Isaiah. This will come after the Millennium.

All Things New
The Bible says God will make all things new.

The present order of creation will be replaced. In this new order, the only people who exist will be God's people. They will live in the closest of relationships.

No Part
Those who have not trusted God's promises will not take part.

After Millennium
Scripture also says that this new heaven and a new earth will occur after the thousand year reign of Christ - the Millennium.

The new heavens and earth are different from the period of the Millennium. They will replace the old cursed creation.

Pass Away
The present heavens, and the present earth will one day pass away. Peter wrote.

God, therefore will dissolve the old universe and make it new by means of fire. Many equate the renewal that Jesus spoke about with this event - the making of the new heavens and the new earth.

Our Hope
The hope of the believer is in an inheritance that will not fade away.

A City
Heaven is called a city.

Still To Come
This city is lasting, it will not perish.

Not Realm Of God
The Bible speaks of three heavens. The first is the atmosphere around the earth, the second is the sun moon and stars, the third heaven is the presence of God. However all three of them will not pass away. The Scripture makes it clear that sin entered only the first and second heaven, not the realm of God. God's realm was untouched by sin and remains perfect. The physical universe, however, has to be renewed. Therefore it is the first and second heaven that will be changed.

Entirely New Or Renewed?
From the passages that speak of the renewal of the heaven and the earth, it is not clear what relationship the new will have with the old. Will the old heaven and earth be merely renewed, or will it be entirely replaced. There are passages that seem to teach both. Can both be true without this being a contradiction? The answer is yes. In some sense, that is beyond our human understanding, God will remake the old universe by dissolving its elements. The result will be a new universe without sin and corruption. Although it is new, it will have some connection with the old. As is the case with the resurrected body of the believer, there is some mystery in this process. What is clear is that the present heaven and earth will pass away in the form that they are presently in and God will make something new for believers to enjoy with Him.

Summary
When Adam and Eve sinned the earth became cursed. God promised to destroy the old earth and make something new. The future home of the believer will be in the new heavens and new earth. After the final judgment, God will remake the present universe and form a new one - a universe without any remembrance of sin. Though the exact relationship between the old and the new is not entirely clear, it is clear that the new universe will be without sin.

I don't see anything there that is contradictory or contrary to Scripture. Yes, the New Heaven and New Earth refer to the first and second heavens mentioned above (first being the Earth's atmosphere and second being the moon, sun, stars, and extended physical universe (Creation). The Third Heaven is where God's throne is (2 Cor 12:2). The New heaven and Earth will be to the Old heaven and Earth like an apple tree to an apple seed (1 Cor 15:35-58).

 

[civic]

I don't see anything there that is contradictory or contrary to Scripture. Yes, the New Heaven and New Earth refer to the first and second heavens mentioned above (first being the Earth's atmosphere and second being the moon, sun, stars, and extended physical universe (Creation). The Third Heaven is where God's throne is (2 Cor 12:2). The New heaven and Earth will be to the Old heaven and Earth like an apple tree to an apple seed (1 Cor 15:35-58).

Maybe we ae closer than I thought brother.

 

[Doug Brents]

First, I greatly respect Doug Brents. He seems to be a kindred spirit.

I really appreciate that.

But my understanding is different than his, and it does "get around that".
The symbolic 1000 years started at the cross and ends at the 2nd coming, so it represents the church age, which we are now in. Just like much of Revelation is symbolic, so, it appears, is the number 1000. If God had used the exact number of years in the church age, then we could easily calculate the year of His coming (or at least come pretty close), by simply adding that number to the year that Christ died. Since God doesn't want us to know the day or the hour (or I believe, even the year), He chose to use the number 1000, which as Doug said, represents a large number. Satan is not a literal dragon. He is not bound with a literal chain. The angel coming down out of heaven is Christ and He bound Satan when He submitted to death on the cross:

Col.2:15 "When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through it (the cross)
Heb.2:14 "... that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."
2 Tim.1:10 "... our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
1 John 3:8 "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
Matthew 12:29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

You are probably thinking, "But we don't see Satan bound today, especially with everything that's happening in the world."

But consider this: Before Christ came, there was only ONE nation that knew the true God. Israel - all the others were deceived by Satan. But when Christ came, He sent out His disciples into all the world to preach the gospel and thousands were delivered from their deception and turned to Jesus. For those people, Satan was bound, and is still being bound in their lives. Whenever or wherever the gospel is received, Satan is bound, and the people are set free!!! As we abide in Him, Satan is bound, and cannot touch us - unless God allows it, to test us, as He did Job. The gospel has infiltrated many nations and bound Satan for probably millions of people!!!

But apparently near the end of the church age, the church will be tested, because God will "release" Satan from his prison - Rev.20:3 and verses 7 and 8 -and he will once again deceive the nations and will "gather them together for the war" (verse8) against the saints and "fire will come down out of heaven and devour them"(verse 9). That fire IS the 2nd Coming of Christ, "when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, ..." (2 Thess.1:7)

We could very well be in that time when Satan has been released - we can't say for sure - but we do see the entire world being deceived with the COVID biological weapon being unleashed. Then add to that the deception that the COVID vaccine is helpful, when thousands have been injured and many have died from it. There has been deception before, but it seems that this deception is global.

If it is true that we are in that time when Satan has been released, he is STILL BOUND in our lives individually as believers - we are not all of a sudden slaves to our sin again. However God may test us and our faith by allowing us to go through certain things - many have already been tested with the whole COVID issue, or other issues.

1 Peter 1:6-7 "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while,if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; ..."

This is entirely possible, but I don't think so for this reason: I believe that Rev 19 through 21 are contiguous. There are several places where Revelation goes back and covers the same time period over again, but I don't believe that is the case here. I believe that the second coming happens in 19, then the 1000 years and Judgement in 20, and the New Heaven and Earth and the beginning of eternity in 21. That puts the 1000 years after the destruction of this world, not in the current age. I do believe that Satan is bound here on Earth (ie: he cannot return to Heaven as he did in Job), but he is free to torment and attack the Church and non-believers continually (he is constantly roaming around like a lion seeking whom he can devour). And if I am reading the parable of the soils correctly, the second and third soil (rocks and thorns) resulted in saved souls that were attacked by Satan and tempted back into condemnation (as James 5:19-20 indicates).

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm a little confused by the words of Praise Yeshua and Studyman. Are either of you advocating the literal keeping of the Sabbath? Are either of you Seventh Day Adventist?

When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man ... ", He obviously was speaking of the Israelites, not all mankind. He NEVER commanded anyone other than the Israelites to observe the Sabbath. Even though God rested on the 7th day, He never even used the word "Sabbath" until over 2700 years after that, just after the Exodus. Also Paul said that the Laws of Moses were nailed to the cross of Jesus. The only exceptions were moral laws that never change, which is why several of them were repeated in the New Covenant, but the Sabbath command was NOT repeated.

No. I believe Christ is our Sabbath. That the seventh day of rest reflected in creation is an allegorical appeal to Christ. As far as the literal keep of the 7th day of rest.... I take the approach that we rest when we die.

 

[TedT]

END TIMES:
A NEW REVELATION Promised!

Now, before we get started, there is a question that should be looked at and the question is this: if our pre-conception existence is in the Scriptures like I say it is, how come nobody knows anything about it? Like, there have been thousands of good Bible scholars down through the years. How come they never saw it? Well, the answer is that GOD has hidden this truth from all of us till now. Now, this might sound pretty weird, but GOD has hidden lots of truth before. For example, GOD hid what was undoubtedly the biggest truth of them all, that being that He Himself would incarnate. This truth can be found all over the OT but it was hidden from all the Jewish scholars[1] until He actually came and showed it to us. (Luke 24:27)

Now, Jesus told us that there was still some more truth to be revealed someday.[2] (Most Christians don't think about this too much, but it's true nonetheless.) Pre-conception existence is one of those hidden truths and this is the time of its revelation to you. (Check the time if you like.)

So then, maybe the best way to begin this is to look at some of the Scriptures that, taken all together, state that there will be a major doctrinal revelation given to the Church in the latter days. So get a Bible out and get ready for your first surprise.

Isaiah 11:9 For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
The most interesting part of this verse has to be the word "full". To my mind, it modifies "the earth" and "the knowledge of the LORD". In other words, I think that the verse means something very close to this: for the full earth shall enjoy the full knowledge of the LORD[3]. And since this interpretation just happens to match the way that most Christians believe it will be when (after) Christ's kingdom comes, I'm going to get bold and suggest that the Church has to receive some new revelation in order to bring about such an increase in our theological knowledge. We are left with only three alternatives. Either we must receive new revelation, or we must radically re-interpret our present store of facts so that they are able to bring us to the fullness of the knowledge of the LORD (which really would not happen apart from a new revelation to show us how), or we must interpret all the Scriptures like this one as being presently fulfilled.[4] Because I believe that we do not presently come anywhere near to fulfilling this verse, I am left to believe that we must receive new revelation, since either of the first two alternatives necessitates it. Therefore, I believe that this Scripture lends credence and support to the idea that the Earth will still receive some more revelation from GOD.

Jeremiah 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return,[5] until HE have executed, and till HE have performed the thought of HIS heart.[6] In the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. The latter days...like now?

According to this, there will be a new understanding revealed in the latter days that perfectly explains the anger of the LORD. Now, the anger of the LORD is simply another way of looking at all the bad things that have been happening in history (bad things happen because God is mad) and in this area we still have a lot of questions such as:
why didn't GOD put the devil and his angels in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone when they rebelled?;

• why did They allow the serpent into Their garden?;
• why didn't they warn Adam and Eve about him?;
• why haven't They judged the devil and his angels yet?;
• why did Jesus take so long to come the first time?;
• why haven't They removed the curse on the ground yet (I thought They were satisfied?);
• why do They "keep making more people" instead of just cleaning up those who are alive now and starting it again clean?;
• why do They allow Their best people to be oppressed and persecuted by the unrepentant advocates of evil?;
• why is divine justice continually set aside?;
• why have They not told us the whole truth yet (before)?;
• et cetera, et cetera?

Well, we still have a lot of questions, IF, of course, we have not yet studied Pre-Conception Existence Theology.[7] Anyway, I believe that this verse indicates that in the latter days there will be a new complete understanding of the "anger of the LORD", that will, for those who "possess" it, explain everything perfectly.

Jeremiah 32:36 to 33:26:
This prophecy is about a dispersion and the LORD's promise of a restoration. The first thing we must determine is whether the promised regathering was fulfilled by Israel after the restoration from Babylon around 536 BC[8], or whether it's still waiting for fulfilment? Because of the scope of the promises in 32:38-40, I believe that this prophecy was not fulfilled then.

For example in verse 38, GOD promises that HE will be their GOD, that is, that HE will fulfil the promises of Genesis 17 which were made to Abraham and his seed. But these were not fulfilled after 536 BC. In verse 39, HE promises them unity and an everlasting fear (obedience) of HIM, but Israel was not unified after Babylon. In verse 40, HE says that they will never depart in Spirit from HIM, but Israel was dispersed in 70 AD for again departing from HIM. Therefore, I believe that this prophecy was not fulfilled in the regathering from Babylon.

Now in Jeremiah's prophecy, there are two verses that promise a revealing. Therefore, I postulate that when this regathering is fulfilled, there will also be a new revelation. The first verse which mentions this new revelation is Jeremiah 33:3
Berean Standard Bible
Jeremiah 33:3 Call to ME, and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty[9] things which thou knowest not to Me, and I will answer and show you great and unsearchable things you do not know. ...the first of many verses in this topic.

The first question regarding this verse is: who is the subject? I believe that the subject is the "it" of the preceding verse, 33:2 Thus saith the LORD, the maker of it, the LORD who formed it, to establish it, JEHOVAH is HIS name.

From the general context, we can see that this "it" must be Jerusalem. Therefore, because HE must be speaking of Jerusalem in verse 2, I believe continuity suggests that it must also be Jerusalem that HE is addressing in verse 3, that is, Jerusalem representing GOD's people around the time of their return from their dispersion (verse 11). Verse 4 also suggests to whom this word is addressed. 33:4 For thus saith the LORD, the GOD of Israel, concerning the houses of this city.

In this verse, the houses of the city, that is, the people in them at the time of this regathering (verses 6,7) are the persons with whom this word is concerned. Therefore, if we supply them as the subject in verse 3, it becomes apparent that verse 3 is addressed to those persons that, in the latter days, will be living "in Jerusalem".

Therefore, this being the case, we can say that verse 3 is a means of grace to these people, firstly, instructing them what to do to have all these promises fulfilled; and secondly, announcing GOD's intention to give them a new revelation of great and mighty, previously unknown things.

Notes for 3. New Revelation.

1 And it still is. It's really there but they still can't see it. So then, there could be more things like this hidden in the Bible but we would never see them until GOD wanted us to see them. Compare Luke 10:21 I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Thy sight.

2 As per John 16:12 I have many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth (that was previously hidden from you).

3 Check the context...

4 Of course, there is the alternative of way interpreting it something like this: some people all over the Earth will have some (but not quite a full) knowledge of the LORD.

5 Return means cease. Another way of looking at it is that we will not arrive at a peaceful world until the LORD stops being angry with us.

6 Ie, His true plan for this life we now live.

7 If you study Pre-Conception Existence theology, you'll know the answer for every one of those questions. You'll know a lot more than that as well.

8 Generally accepted as the date when the Israeli regathering from Babylon began.

9 KJV margin: hidden. Marginal translations are not thought to be quite as good as the one the translators used, that is, the one used in the text, but the marginal translation was thought to have enough merit to be noted in the margin. In other words, the translators were not very sure on how to exactly translate a lot of verses (like this one) so they gave us two translations, the textual one being their favourite (or best educated guess) and the marginal coming in second.

In other words, if they were wrong on the first, they are hoping to redeem themselves with the second.

2 b cntd...