Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[praise_yeshua]

God stated that he will share His glory with no one else, so either jesus was blaspheming there, or is very God Himself

They will ignore and just repeat themselves as if they're still correct.

They are being led by wickedness in high places.

 

[Peterlag]

No, it says that Jesus was with God before the world was created, and had the same glory as God (which is part of what He emptied Himself of when He descended.
"And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born. And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

 

[FreeInChrist]

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born.

But Jesus said it.

What do you think "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." means?

Do you not understand Jesus is speaking as part of His prayer to God the Father, asking to be glorified in His presence with the glory He had before the world began.

With the glory He had before the world began....

Perhaps you have verses that tell us something else?

And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

I agree. But there is a verse that says “The Word became flesh…” (not ceased being God, but became flesh) John 1:14.

But he did empty himself . Jesus "emptied himself" to take on human form and serve humanity, demonstrating humility and obedience to God's will. This act is often understood as part of the Incarnation, where he became a servant and ultimately sacrificed himself for others.

But you will say not so, and I am not up to explaining.

 

[Peterlag]

But Jesus said it.

What do you think "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." means?

Do you not understand Jesus is speaking as part of His prayer to God the Father, asking to be glorified in His presence with the glory He had before the world began.

With the glory He had before the world began....

Perhaps you have verses that tell us something else?


I agree. But there is a verse that says “The Word became flesh…” (not ceased being God, but became flesh) John 1:14.

But he did empty himself . Jesus "emptied himself" to take on human form and serve humanity, demonstrating humility and obedience to God's will. This act is often understood as part of the Incarnation, where he became a servant and ultimately sacrificed himself for others.

But you will say not so, and I am not up to explaining.

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born. And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

I never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood, because He didn't. But He did empty Himself of His glory, knowledge, and the independent use of His power.

And yes, John 17:5 does say that Jesus was with the Father in Heaven before the world was Created (which was before Jesus was born).

 

[Peterlag]

I never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood, because He didn't. But He did empty Himself of His glory, knowledge, and the independent use of His power.

And yes, John 17:5 does say that Jesus was with the Father in Heaven before the world was Created (which was before Jesus was born).

There's no verse in John that says Jesus emptied himself of his independent use of Power. And both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” (2 Timothy 1:9), no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

 

[Runningman]

Even your distorted view that a personification can tabernacle as a human fails miserably because His ministry did not precede all created things. I even highlighted that fact and you still ignored that obvious crippling error on your part. "Let logic be dawned!" scream all unitarians.

I will keep Trinitarian verses coming, rest assured.

Your argument fails since all things were made "through" the Word, not "by" the Word. Since the Word is not the creator, then it isn't God. You haven't even gotten out of John 1:1-3 yet and you're struggling to really make any sense.

 

[Runningman]

No confusion at all. But you have not addressed John 17:5.

Then why did Thomas call Jesus "Lord and God"?

How is it blasphemy for God to command someone to do anything? If God commands worship (even if the worship is not directed at Him), then there is no sin in Him or in the one worshiping.

Then you have contradicted God who already put a commandment in place to not worship any created thing. So why is Jesus telling people to worship created things? As previously shown, you don't know the difference between God worship and the kind of bowing-down-worship that is given in reverences to kings or masters; therein lies your deep confusion about what it meant when Jesus was bowed to.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God (Matt 28:19; John 1:1; Acts 5:3–4).
The disciples of the apostles (Polycarp, Ignatius) and their students (Irenaeus) teach the same thing.
That means this didn’t come from later “Christendom”........it came from the apostles.

FreeInChrist:

None of the scriptures you listed above indicate, to quote you: "Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God."

Let's begin with Matthew 28:19.

If the mentioning of three entities in the same verse of scripture at Matthew 28:19 = they are the same god, does the mentioning of (1) FreeInChrist, (2) the biological father of FreeInChrist, and (3) a possession of FreeInChrist's biological father = all three are the same human being?


The scripture at John 1:1 starts off as follows: "In the beginning was the Word , . . . " According to the first independent clause of John 1:1, the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning. Scripture at Psalm 90:2 says Almighty God does not have a beginning.

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)

Psalm 90 NIV

Acts 5:3-4 since Jehovah owns the holy spirit, when we sin against God's holy spirit, by extension, we are sinning against God.

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2 -- English Standard Version)

Genesis 1 ESV