Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[praise_yeshua]

God stated that he will share His glory with no one else, so either jesus was blaspheming there, or is very God Himself

They will ignore and just repeat themselves as if they're still correct.

They are being led by wickedness in high places.

 

[Peterlag]

No, it says that Jesus was with God before the world was created, and had the same glory as God (which is part of what He emptied Himself of when He descended.
"And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born. And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

 

[FreeInChrist]

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born.

But Jesus said it.

What do you think "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." means?

Do you not understand Jesus is speaking as part of His prayer to God the Father, asking to be glorified in His presence with the glory He had before the world began.

With the glory He had before the world began....

Perhaps you have verses that tell us something else?

And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

I agree. But there is a verse that says “The Word became flesh…” (not ceased being God, but became flesh) John 1:14.

But he did empty himself . Jesus "emptied himself" to take on human form and serve humanity, demonstrating humility and obedience to God's will. This act is often understood as part of the Incarnation, where he became a servant and ultimately sacrificed himself for others.

But you will say not so, and I am not up to explaining.

 

[Peterlag]

But Jesus said it.

What do you think "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." means?

Do you not understand Jesus is speaking as part of His prayer to God the Father, asking to be glorified in His presence with the glory He had before the world began.

With the glory He had before the world began....

Perhaps you have verses that tell us something else?


I agree. But there is a verse that says “The Word became flesh…” (not ceased being God, but became flesh) John 1:14.

But he did empty himself . Jesus "emptied himself" to take on human form and serve humanity, demonstrating humility and obedience to God's will. This act is often understood as part of the Incarnation, where he became a servant and ultimately sacrificed himself for others.

But you will say not so, and I am not up to explaining.

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born. And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

I never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood, because He didn't. But He did empty Himself of His glory, knowledge, and the independent use of His power.

And yes, John 17:5 does say that Jesus was with the Father in Heaven before the world was Created (which was before Jesus was born).

 

[Peterlag]

I never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood, because He didn't. But He did empty Himself of His glory, knowledge, and the independent use of His power.

And yes, John 17:5 does say that Jesus was with the Father in Heaven before the world was Created (which was before Jesus was born).

There's no verse in John that says Jesus emptied himself of his independent use of Power. And both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” (2 Timothy 1:9), no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

 

[Runningman]

Even your distorted view that a personification can tabernacle as a human fails miserably because His ministry did not precede all created things. I even highlighted that fact and you still ignored that obvious crippling error on your part. "Let logic be dawned!" scream all unitarians.

I will keep Trinitarian verses coming, rest assured.

Your argument fails since all things were made "through" the Word, not "by" the Word. Since the Word is not the creator, then it isn't God. You haven't even gotten out of John 1:1-3 yet and you're struggling to really make any sense.

 

[Runningman]

No confusion at all. But you have not addressed John 17:5.

Then why did Thomas call Jesus "Lord and God"?

How is it blasphemy for God to command someone to do anything? If God commands worship (even if the worship is not directed at Him), then there is no sin in Him or in the one worshiping.

Then you have contradicted God who already put a commandment in place to not worship any created thing. So why is Jesus telling people to worship created things? As previously shown, you don't know the difference between God worship and the kind of bowing-down-worship that is given in reverences to kings or masters; therein lies your deep confusion about what it meant when Jesus was bowed to.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God (Matt 28:19; John 1:1; Acts 5:3–4).
The disciples of the apostles (Polycarp, Ignatius) and their students (Irenaeus) teach the same thing.
That means this didn’t come from later “Christendom”........it came from the apostles.

FreeInChrist:

None of the scriptures you listed above indicate, to quote you: "Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God."

Let's begin with Matthew 28:19.

If the mentioning of three entities in the same verse of scripture at Matthew 28:19 = they are the same god, does the mentioning of (1) FreeInChrist, (2) the biological father of FreeInChrist, and (3) a possession of FreeInChrist's biological father = all three are the same human being?


The scripture at John 1:1 starts off as follows: "In the beginning was the Word , . . . " According to the first independent clause of John 1:1, the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning. Scripture at Psalm 90:2 says Almighty God does not have a beginning.

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)

Psalm 90 NIV

Acts 5:3-4 since Jehovah owns the holy spirit, when we sin against God's holy spirit, by extension, we are sinning against God.

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2 -- English Standard Version)

Genesis 1 ESV

 

[synergy]

Your argument fails since all things were made "through" the Word, not "by" the Word. Since the Word is not the creator, then it isn't God. You haven't even gotten out of John 1:1-3 yet and you're struggling to really make any sense.

Of course all things were made through the Word, who was God, and later tabernacled as Jesus. I'm glad you agree with all those Trinitarian facts.

John 1:2-3 continues to contradict your dostorted claim that the “beginning” is merely Jesus’ earthly ministry—since His ministry did not precede all created things. If everything that came into existence came through the Word, then the Word Himself cannot be part of the created order, or John’s statement becomes self-refuting. "Let logic be dawned!" scream all unitarians.

 

[Doug Brents]

There's no verse in John that says Jesus emptied himself of his independent use of Power.

Never said it was in John that we are told that. But we are told that, in John 12:28 and in many other verses.

And both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive.

Everything existed in God's foreknowledge. But you miss the key difference between everything else and Jesus: Jesus was with the Father BEFORE the creation of the world, not just as foreknowledge, but with the full glory and power of the Most High.

Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived.

Having flesh does not make something really exist. If that were the case, then the Father (who has NEVER had flesh) wouldn't be real.

It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God.

It is not a physical presence that is being "read into" these passages. Of course He wasn't physically there before Creation; NOTHING physical existed before Creation. But He was indeed there as a spirit along side the spirit of the Father.

When 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” (2 Timothy 1:9), no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

No, pete, that is not correct. In John 17:5, it says that Jesus had the Glory of God, with God, before Creation, and He is asking that it be GIVEN BACK to Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

Then you have contradicted God who already put a commandment in place to not worship any created thing.

I am not God, so I have not contradicted anything. If God commands that something be worshiped, then it shall be worshiped. And God is the one commanding worship in that verse.

So why is Jesus telling people to worship created things? As previously shown, you don't know the difference between God worship and the kind of bowing-down-worship that is given in reverences to kings or masters; therein lies your deep confusion about what it meant when Jesus was bowed to.

I do understand that difference. But when someone bows down and says, "My Lord and my God!", that is not simple reverence to a king or master. He called Jesus "God". If Jesus were not really God, then it is blasphemy on His part to accept that worship/praise/acclaim/reverence (or whatever else you want to call it). He did not disclaim the title of "God", and if He is not really God, then that is a sin.

 

[FreeInChrist]

FreeInChrist:

None of the scriptures you listed above indicate, to quote you: "Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God."

Let's begin with Matthew 28:19.

If the mentioning of three entities in the same verse of scripture at Matthew 28:19 = they are the same god, does the mentioning of (1) FreeInChrist, (2) the biological father of FreeInChrist, and (3) a possession of FreeInChrist's biological father = all three are the same human being?


The scripture at John 1:1 starts off as follows: "In the beginning was the Word , . . . " According to the first independent clause of John 1:1, the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning. Scripture at Psalm 90:2 says Almighty God does not have a beginning.

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)

Psalm 90 NIV

Acts 5:3-4 since Jehovah owns the holy spirit, when we sin against God's holy spirit, by extension, we are sinning against God.

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2 -- English Standard Version)

Genesis 1 ESV

@Alter2Ego ,

Don't you worry your little head about what I posted.

It comes from the parallel universe I live in. The one where my signature came from.

Have a great day.

 

[Peterlag]

Never said it was in John that we are told that. But we are told that, in John 12:28 and in many other verses.

Everything existed in God's foreknowledge. But you miss the key difference between everything else and Jesus: Jesus was with the Father BEFORE the creation of the world, not just as foreknowledge, but with the full glory and power of the Most High.

Having flesh does not make something really exist. If that were the case, then the Father (who has NEVER had flesh) wouldn't be real.

It is not a physical presence that is being "read into" these passages. Of course He wasn't physically there before Creation; NOTHING physical existed before Creation. But He was indeed there as a spirit along side the spirit of the Father.

No, pete, that is not correct. In John 17:5, it says that Jesus had the Glory of God, with God, before Creation, and He is asking that it be GIVEN BACK to Him.

There's absolutely no reason to have 3 God's or a man-God or to have a God agent in heaven who was sent down to the Earth and then went back up with the other God along with having another spirit God. None of this makes any sense which is why we have Scripture like Isaiah 44:24 that says He stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that He spreadeth abroad the earth all by Himself.

And then there's...

Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:

 

[JesusFan]

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

The greek text plainly stated to us that the word of the Father is ternal, is a real person, and then became in human Flesh Jesus

 

[Peterlag]

The greek text plainly stated to us that the word of the Father is ternal, is a real person, and then became in human Flesh Jesus

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not taught anywhere in the Bible. This should be all the evidence any normal person would need to understand that the Trinity is not Biblical. Here's some of what I have heard over the years...

• It's there.
• It's a mystery.
• You need to be born again to see it.
• God did not mean for us to understand.
• You need to learn Greek and Hebrew to see it.
• Humans cannot understand the things of God.
• It's hidden because God had to keep it a secret.
• You have to find all the pieces... hints and clues.
• You need to ask the Holy Spirit to show it to you.

 

[Runningman]

Of course all things were made through the Word, who was God, and later tabernacled as Jesus. I'm glad you agree with all those Trinitarian facts.

John 1:2-3 continues to contradict your dostorted claim that the “beginning” is merely Jesus’ earthly ministry—since His ministry did not precede all created things. If everything that came into existence came through the Word, then the Word Himself cannot be part of the created order, or John’s statement becomes self-refuting. "Let logic be dawned!" scream all unitarians.

Your argument fails since God created through spoken words. God's Word is therefore not the creator, rather God is thus the Word isn't God. If you are looking to get the last word, good luck. You misunderstand John's Hebrew poem.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There's absolutely no reason to have 3 God's or a man-God or to have a God agent in heaven who was sent down to the Earth and then went back up with the other God along with having another spirit God. None of this makes any sense which is why we have Scripture like Isaiah 44:24 that says He stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that He spreadeth abroad the earth all by Himself.

And then there's...

Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:

@Peterlag,

“You’re quoting verses that prove there is only ONE God ~ "I" agree.
But that’s exactly the problem for your position.
Because that same ONE God says He alone is Creator, Savior, and First and Last…
yet the New Testament applies every one of those to Jesus.
So either Scripture contradicts itself, or Jesus shares the identity of the one God~ not a separate god.”

Follow along if you want....

Those verses (Isaiah 44–45, Hosea 13:4) teach there is only ONE God and there is no other God besides Him

You will get no argument from me..... but If only ONE God exists, then how do you explain:
Jesus being called God? , The Spirit doing what only God does? , Multiple persons speaking as God?


If you are going to argue these never happened you would be wrong, but an in-depth study is not what this is about.

So, YHWH says He alone created everything...right?​

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

What about

John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him,[the Word] and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 " For by Him [Christ] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

So who created?

YHWH alone
Jesus

Conclusion: Jesus is not “another god”—He shares the SAME divine identity.

YHWH says He is the ONLY Savior.​

Isaiah 43:11 "“I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me."

Then how is it we have.......

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.


So who is Savior?

YHWH alone
Jesus

You don’t get two Saviors in a strict monotheism.

YHWH = First and Last​

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Same title. Same identity.

 

[Runningman]

I am not God, so I have not contradicted anything. If God commands that something be worshiped, then it shall be worshiped. And God is the one commanding worship in that verse.

You are contradicting God. You are essentially saying that God condones sinning which is a dangerous and destructive heresy. Your Jesus-shaped idol is going to get you in trouble. The reason you are contradicting the entire Bible is because you are scrambling and not thinking anything through. You are in a cult.

I do understand that difference. But when someone bows down and says, "My Lord and my God!", that is not simple reverence to a king or master. He called Jesus "God". If Jesus were not really God, then it is blasphemy on His part to accept that worship/praise/acclaim/reverence (or whatever else you want to call it). He did not disclaim the title of "God", and if He is not really God, then that is a sin.

No one ever bowed down to Jesus and said "My Lord and my God!" in the Bible.

And no it is not blasphemy to refer to humans as god in the Bible.

John 10
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 

[Doug Brents]

There's absolutely no reason to have 3 God's or a man-God or to have a God agent in heaven who was sent down to the Earth and then went back up with the other God along with having another spirit God. None of this makes any sense which is why we have Scripture like Isaiah 44:24 that says He stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that He spreadeth abroad the earth all by Himself.

The only reason for it is because that is what God says about Himself in His written Word. You can debate until you are blue in the face, but when John 1:1 says that the Word was God, and John 1:14 and following says that the Word became flesh in the man we know as Jesus, there can be no other conclusion than that Jesus is God. And argument against that is argument against God, and He will always win.

Quit fighting against the Truth, against God, against who Jesus says He is.