Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[praise_yeshua]

God stated that he will share His glory with no one else, so either jesus was blaspheming there, or is very God Himself

They will ignore and just repeat themselves as if they're still correct.

They are being led by wickedness in high places.

 

[Peterlag]

No, it says that Jesus was with God before the world was created, and had the same glory as God (which is part of what He emptied Himself of when He descended.
"And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born. And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

 

[FreeInChrist]

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born.

But Jesus said it.

What do you think "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." means?

Do you not understand Jesus is speaking as part of His prayer to God the Father, asking to be glorified in His presence with the glory He had before the world began.

With the glory He had before the world began....

Perhaps you have verses that tell us something else?

And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

I agree. But there is a verse that says “The Word became flesh…” (not ceased being God, but became flesh) John 1:14.

But he did empty himself . Jesus "emptied himself" to take on human form and serve humanity, demonstrating humility and obedience to God's will. This act is often understood as part of the Incarnation, where he became a servant and ultimately sacrificed himself for others.

But you will say not so, and I am not up to explaining.

 

[Peterlag]

But Jesus said it.

What do you think "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." means?

Do you not understand Jesus is speaking as part of His prayer to God the Father, asking to be glorified in His presence with the glory He had before the world began.

With the glory He had before the world began....

Perhaps you have verses that tell us something else?


I agree. But there is a verse that says “The Word became flesh…” (not ceased being God, but became flesh) John 1:14.

But he did empty himself . Jesus "emptied himself" to take on human form and serve humanity, demonstrating humility and obedience to God's will. This act is often understood as part of the Incarnation, where he became a servant and ultimately sacrificed himself for others.

But you will say not so, and I am not up to explaining.

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 17:5 does not say Jesus was with God before he was born. And there's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.

I never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood, because He didn't. But He did empty Himself of His glory, knowledge, and the independent use of His power.

And yes, John 17:5 does say that Jesus was with the Father in Heaven before the world was Created (which was before Jesus was born).

 

[Peterlag]

I never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood, because He didn't. But He did empty Himself of His glory, knowledge, and the independent use of His power.

And yes, John 17:5 does say that Jesus was with the Father in Heaven before the world was Created (which was before Jesus was born).

There's no verse in John that says Jesus emptied himself of his independent use of Power. And both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” (2 Timothy 1:9), no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.