Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Runningman]

Alone is an accurate English representation. The issue isn't translation. It is application.

You can be in a crowded room and be alone. Right?

Glad you said that. Now I will answer you.

You posted this: Joh 8:16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me.

Do you agree that if the Son and the Father are not together, then they are each alone? Because Jesus said he is not alone because he is with the Father. Therefore, the reverse must be true. The Father in the category of God is alone as the true God.

And your example "You can be in a crowded room and be alone." In this example you are sayin that in a crowded room the Father is alone as the true God? Then I agree with that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I responded directly to:


Yes, unity/one is a central aspect of Trinitarianism - a fusion of 3 into one.

I agree that Jesus and God had a unique Father/Son relationship but that relationship did not fuse them together into one. The same as the intimate act of a husband and wife does not literally fuse them together.

BTW. Our very existence "mimics" the Holy Trinity. It why all of Creation is crafted the way it is crafted.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Glad you said that. Now I will answer you.

You posted this: Joh 8:16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me.

Do you agree that if the Son and the Father are not together, then they are each alone? Because Jesus said he is not alone because he is with the Father. Therefore, the reverse must be true. The Father in the category of God is alone as the true God.

And your example "You can be in a crowded room and be alone." In this example you are sayin that in a crowded room the Father is alone as the true God? Then I agree with that.

Okay....

No. When they are together, they are also alone. They are unique in the context you're describing as being "alone".

Relative to the category of "God", they are both God.

 

[amazing grace]

Good... good. Reasoned. Reasonable. Will you remain that way......

Service isn't an indication of "rank". Do you have a husband or wife?

People often make this mistake. In more detailed evaluations of the Holy Trinity, these "come to light" as the conversation progresses. There is "much" to God. We can't "boil it down" like Unitarians try to simplify God.

There are differences/uniqueness in details.

So when you serve a friend, is your friend greater than you?

I believe what Jesus was teaching was humility. I believe my original point was: The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe what Jesus was teaching was humility. I believe my original point was: The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him.

So if you sent your husband/wife somewhere, that means you're not equal?

In what way? People conflate terms and references. Lets not do this. Please answer about your relationship to your mate.

 

[amazing grace]

BTW. Our very existence "mimics" the Holy Trinity. It why all of Creation is crafted the way it is crafted.

How so?

 

[amazing grace]

So if you sent your husband/wife somewhere, that means you're not equal?

In what way? People conflate terms and references. Lets not do this. Please answer about your relationship to your mate.

If I sent my husband to the store, he is the agent sent to carry out what I, the sender, gave him to do - pick up what I need from the store but in our relationship as husband and wife - he is my head and I submit to his authority.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. [1 Cor. 11:3]

 

[praise_yeshua]

If I sent my husband to the store, he is the agent sent to carry out what I, the sender, gave him to do - pick up what I need from the store but in our relationship as husband and wife - he is my head and I submit to his authority.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. [1 Cor. 11:3]

Good. Reasoned. Reasonable.

As a Trinitarian, we wouldn't deny that the Father is the "head" of the Holy Trinity. The "First Person" of the Holy Trinity.

Does that make any difference to you?

 

[Runningman]

Okay....

No. When they are together, they are also alone. They are unique in the context you're describing as being "alone".

Relative to the category of "God", they are both God.

For the sake of argument, let's say Jesus and the Father are together as God. They are together, but only one of them is Alone. If the Father is alone as the true God, even with Jesus, then it must be true that if Jesus is God then he isn't God in the same sense or the same way the Father is and that is what Scripture supports as well.

Many humans are referred to as god in the Bible: "You are gods" (Psalm 82:6.) Calling someone a god is not the same thing as them being God Almighty. Many people are a god in their own right, meaning they are extraordinary, powerful, revered, but not the supreme singular God like the Father is. Jesus could be a god in the same sense Moses and the other sons of Gods are, but not The God.

 

[civic]

Good. Reasoned. Reasonable.

As a Trinitarian, we wouldn't deny that the Father is the "head" of the Holy Trinity. The "First Person" of the Holy Trinity.

Does that make any difference to you?

Yes since we are created in Gods image ( us, we) there is rank/ roles within a marriage which directly reflects Gods likeness. The same with the other Divine institution created by God- the church. Both of these Divine institutions reflect Gods image as One in unity. The body is One with many members just as marriage is One having two persons. God is One yet 3 in Persons which Jesus alludes to in the great commission- One Name( One God) who is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit

The uni camp puts on its blinders to deny the above truth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For the sake of argument, let's say Jesus and the Father are together as God. They are together, but only one of them is Alone. If the Father is alone as the true God, even with Jesus, then it must be true that if Jesus is God then he isn't God in the same sense or the same way the Father is and that is what Scripture supports as well.

Many humans are referred to as god in the Bible: "You are gods" (Psalm 82:6.) Calling someone a god is not the same thing as them being God Almighty. Many people are a god in their own right, meaning they are extraordinary, powerful, revered, but not the supreme singular God like the Father is. Jesus could be a god in the same sense Moses and the other sons of Gods are, but not The God.

Okay.

I never said that the Father is alone as the true God. That is your construct that isn't supported by the word "Alone" or "monos". You made that argument. Not me. I don't believe that argument is valid.

Alone has context. It is not the absence of Diety/Divinity "alone" to the exclusion of the Son.

I agree. We are "called gods". In fact, the goal of God in creating man is make man is His own image and after His own likeness, right? The "New Birth" relative to Eternal things.

Not that I believe I originate anything. I tried to have that conversation with you previously. If you would have "worked with me" in that, you will change your mind..... or plunge deeper into your mistakes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes since we are created in Gods image ( us, we) there is rank/ roles within a marriage which directly reflects Gods likeness. The same with the other Divine institution created by God- the church. Both of these Divine institutions reflect Gods image as One in unity. The body is One with many members just as marriage is One having two persons. God is One yet 3 in Persons which Jesus alludes to in the great commission- One Name( One God) who is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit

The uni camp puts on its blinders to deny the above truth.

Well said!

 

[Studyman]

I believe what Jesus was teaching was humility. I believe my original point was: The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him.

Excellent point. The wife and husband teaching confirms your statement.

1 Peter 3: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. 7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

1 Cor. 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

"Equal" should be defined by God, not religious men.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Excellent point. The wife and husband teaching confirms your statement.

1 Peter 3: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. 7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

1 Cor. 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

"Equal" should be defined by God, not religious men.

Yeah. Spoken by a man that can't operate unless he is the "lead" of everything.....

You do realize that you're not going to control your wife for long.... Right?

Such things are temporal. When you judge all things "God", you should consider such.

I've learned that my wife knows how to lead. It isn't bad to be "hen pecked" when you're "pecked by the right hen". When you have a good relationship. You do everything TOGETHER. Agreement is everything. You think the same way. You finish each other's sentences. You operate as ONE.

You can't fathom that because you've never experienced it yourself.

 

[amazing grace]

Good. Reasoned. Reasonable.

As a Trinitarian, we wouldn't deny that the Father is the "head" of the Holy Trinity. The "First Person" of the Holy Trinity.

Does that make any difference to you?

Why would that make any difference to me? So when scripture says that 'God is the head of Christ' you read it as the 'Father' being the 'head of the Holy Trinity'........Is Jesus considered the Holy Trinity?

 

[mikesw]

Why would that make any difference to me? So when scripture says that 'God is the head of Christ' you read it as the 'Father' being the 'head of the Holy Trinity'........Is Jesus considered the Holy Trinity?

You always sound like your are confusing yourself by flattening terms. Otherwise, you would not ask the question as given above.

 

[amazing grace]

You always sound like your are confusing yourself by flattening terms. Otherwise, you would not ask the question as given above.

Thanks but I was asking praise_yeshua what he meant by what he said.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why would that make any difference to me? So when scripture says that 'God is the head of Christ' you read it as the 'Father' being the 'head of the Holy Trinity'........Is Jesus considered the Holy Trinity?

Part of the Holy Trinity. Does that make a difference? Why the hostility to including the Son in the relationship? Would you exclude your son from you like that?

I have a son. I can tell you, I don't treat him any differently than I treat myself. We serve one another. I would do almost anything for him. Same with my daughter.

I honestly have a very real problem with the integrity lacking in Unitarians to dishonor Jesus Christ by not promoting Him equal with His Father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why would that make any difference to me? So when scripture says that 'God is the head of Christ' you read it as the 'Father' being the 'head of the Holy Trinity'........Is Jesus considered the Holy Trinity?

It is the way you treat someone in a relationship. If you were to tell my own son, that I'm the head of him and that requires I treat him of a lesser sort than I do myself, then I would have a very real problem with YOU.

That is what I see when Unitarians start dividing the Son and the Father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You always sound like your are confusing yourself by flattening terms. Otherwise, you would not ask the question as given above.

Very very true!