brightfame52
Well-known member
You reject a fundamental doctrine of the Gospel, Christ died for our sins, paid the wage debt, Death
Christ paid our sin debt
- Thread starter civic
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Where is your verse showing Christ paid for sin?
brightfame52
Well-known member
He did both for the elect, He bore their punishment for their sins, which in turn set them free from the penalty of their sins and power of sin. Thats why they become believers, they are set free from the power of unbelief. 1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
You need to be careful, sounds like you dont believe in the substitutionary death of Christ.
Have you found a verse which states Christ paid for sin yet?
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Joe
Punish is merely a synonym for chastisement, discipline. Jesus was chastised for the sins of His Sheep. Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed
The word chastisement is the word mûsār
Its made from the word yāsar:
yaw-sar'; a primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct:—bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.
Lev 26:18
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
The NIV Isa 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
So yall need to let that go friend.
Punish is merely a synonym for chastisement, discipline. Jesus was chastised for the sins of His Sheep. Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed
The word chastisement is the word mûsār
- discipline, chastening, correction
- discipline, correction
- chastening
Its made from the word yāsar:
yaw-sar'; a primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct:—bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.
Lev 26:18
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
The NIV Isa 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
So yall need to let that go friend.
Isaiah 53:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; And with his stripes we are healed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Let that go
Isaiah 53:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; And with his stripes we are healed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Let that go, you showing that you dont even believe the fundamentals of Christs Death.
Isaiah 53:5 (ESV) — 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Let that go, you showing that you dont even believe the fundamentals of Christs Death.
Isaiah 53:5 (LSB) — 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our peace fell upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Let that go, you showing that you dont even believe the fundamentals of Christs Death.
civic
Well-known member
Projecting. Read the OP
This objection was recently posed to me in the comment section in another article in this sight. This fellow said “God is the one who set up this system of sacrificial atonement. This is where I began to have serious doubts about the authenticity of the Bible as the Word of God. I can see a primitive sect of people setting up a system this way since they were familiar with various tribes that thought sacrificing a baby or a virgin would appease the gods. But it is hard for me to accept that the real God of the universe who has all knowledge and power would ever resort to such a bloody, painful and grotesque practice. It makes no sense that he would require the death of someone to atone for the sins of the world. He could have set this system up anyway he wanted to. He could just forgive us like we forgive others. When someone wrongs me, I do not require a blood sacrifice. Generally a simple ‘I’m sorry, please forgive me’ will do. But that is not good enough for God. He requires death.”
How should we answer this?
I think this makes more sense if you think of God’s ridding our sins as a discharging of debt. Imagine you have violated the law and face a $50,000 fine. You tell the judge that you are truly sorry for your crime, but the judge responds “I certainly hope so. You’ve violated the law. Now, pay this fine.” You respond “No, I cannot. This debt is too much for me to bare. I promise I won’t do it again. Just please forgive me.” and the judge says “I can’t do that. The law requires that you pay this fine or face prison. I would be a corrupt judge if I just let you off Scott free. Someone has got to pay the penalty.” You begin to despair because you know the judge cannot just simply forgive you, but neither can you save yourself from this massive debt. Suddenly, something takes you by surprise. The judge steps down from his bench and walks over to you. Then he reaches into his pocket and takes out his wallet, handing you $50,000 in cash saying that he will pay the fine for you (should you accept his offer).
This is analogous to our sin situation. We have all strayed from God’s laws (Romans 3:23), and are therefore guilty before Him, deserving death (Romans 6:23a). God has to punish evil because He is just (Psalm 9:7-8, Psalm 9:16, Psalm 11:16). If He did not punish us, He wouldn’t be a just judge, just as the judge in the illustration above wouldn’t be just if he had let the fine go unpaid. So God must punish us. However, God is also loving (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) and therefore desires not to punish us for our crimes. Just like the judge in the above illustration, God stepped down from His throne, taking on human flesh (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8), and was punished in our place. He accrued the penalty to Himself by being crucified.
However, Jesus’ death is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Repentance is required for Christ’s death to be efficacious (Isaiah 55:7, Acts 3:19). If we reject Him, God’s wrath will remain on us (John 3:18, John 3:36). Just as if you were to reject the judge’s offer to pay your fine for you, if one rejects Christ, our sin-debt will remain unpaid.
Regarding animal sacrifices prior to Jesus’ death, I think these are analogous to credit cards. Credit cards don’t actually pay for anything, but they allow you to walk out of the store with your desired object until you have the money to pay for it. Likewise, animal sacrifices never discharged our sin-debt before God (Hebrews 10:4), but they were a sign to God that you were repentant and trusted in Him for salvation. God retroactively applied Jesus’ sacrifice to these Old Testament individuals.https://crossexamined.org/cant-god-just-forgive-us/
hope this helps !!
Isaiah 53:5 (UASV) — 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our errors; upon him was the chastisement for our peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
I have already addressed the Hebrew word mûsār here in this thread. Isaiah 53:5 The chastisement of our peace was upon Him
From the thread....
The Hebrew word מוּסָר mûsâr (moo-sawr) is used in Isa 53:5 and means chastisement, which in Hebrew means instruction, training, correction given by parents upon their children to perfect-to complete them. Chastisement includes learning by suffering. One can chasten his son by causing him to suffer to one degree or another with the purpose to teach him something that he might otherwise not learn. This is called discipline as well.
Now that Isa 53:5 has been fulfilled, we know God told man ahead of time He would perfect His Son to be the Author of Salvation through the sufferings that brought us peace with Him. Our Lord's real experiences of humbling Himself to come into our form and living in our human weakness, suffering and giving up His life unto death on account of our sins is what purifies us of our sins and reconciled-restored our relationship to God.
Here we are informed that God made our Lord, the Author of our salvation "perfect" through suffering.
"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Heb 2:10)
Again, we are informed that our Lord "learned obedience through what He suffered", and was "made perfect" by it, becoming the source of salvation.
"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek." (Heb 5:7-10)
Here we are informed the oath of God "appoints a Son forever who has been perfected".
"For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected." (Heb 7:26-28)
The Hebrew understanding of chastisement does not mean penal punishment like us westerners have been led to think. It means instruction, training, or correction to perfect a person, to make them complete.
The suffering and death that Jesus our Lord experienced taught Him in all ways what it was to be in the weakness of humanity, so that He could fully sympathize with us; this being what He learned that qualifies Him to be "the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him". This chastisement-being perfected through suffering-was upon Him for our peace, for our sake ultimately.
God Bless
civic
Well-known member
Amen
brightfame52
Well-known member
You showing that you dont even believe the fundamentals of Christs Death as well. Do you believe in the substitutionary Death of Christ ?
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