Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[Dizerner]

The SIN NATURE IS NOT a sin.

The SIN nature is BY DEFINITION sin.

You don't understand what the sin nature is.

Yes, I do. It is a nature that is SINFUL.

SIN. NATURE.

You are being quite stubborn.

I don't care how many times you've spoken to whoever.

Wow. What are you even talking about. I never mentioned anything about that nor asked you to care.

If you want to discuss...I'm here right now. I'm not going to a different thread.

Lol. I'm not going to re-paste the same things in here because you can't be bothered to click a mouse.

Anyone honestly searching for the truth wouldn't care about that, it's just an excuse.

Another dishonest interlocutor.

Please realize how badly you are resisting the Holy Spirit and clinging to your own prideful understanding and self-righteous feelings.


See you at the Judgment seat of Christ, if you humble yourself enough to actually trust his suffering for your wickedness.

I'm DONE here.

 

[Cosmo]

Adam was in fact the third person to sin in the garden...first the serpent came with a sinful intent to beguile them and secondly Eve agreed with the serpent and ate of the poisonous fruit, and only then did Adam eat.

Adam was in fact not a person

 

[TedT]

13 [To be sure] sin was in the world before ever the Law was given, but sin is not charged to men’s account where there is no law [to transgress].
Romans 5:12–13.

Rom 5:13 For until the Law, sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed, there being no law. can be interpreted as "For until the Law, sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed by GOD to men, there being no law."
OR
"For until the Law, sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed by men to other men, there being no law."

We know GOD imputes sin even in the absence of earthly law because, as is written in the next verse, all men died even when no imputation of sin was made and, as the wages for sin, only sinners who have had sin imputed to them die. No holy angel dies; only sinners die so death proves the imputation of sin. This would indicate that it is men who do not impute sin to each other when there is no religious law.

Also if the first law was given to Adam or Moses, what was the war in heaven all about? How did Satan get to be such a radical sinner? Sin was imputed to him before the creation of the physical universe...long before the first law and before he was flung into the earth.

Have you ever noticed that the law is given, not to show the correct path of righteousness but to prove to people they have already left that path, ie, to convict them of sin??

Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc. which tells us clearly that the law was NOT given to the righteous to steer their decisions but to the sinful to convict them of their sin.

Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. which suggests that the command not to eat was given to them as sinners to convict them of their sinfulness as it did, very well.

Does this not mean anything that the first thing GOD did for Adam and Eve was to give them a law, a command, which ultimately did have the result of opening their eyes to their nakedness, the nakedness ie sinfulness they had before they ate?

 

[TedT]

But Children are not held accountable.
If they die they get reborn of the Spirit in heaven into everlasting life.

Death is the wages of sin created by sinfulness: Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18:4 and especially James 1:5 Berean Standard Bible Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Death is created by sin just as our bodies create the birth of new bodies.

So only the children who are elect return to the Father in heaven while the reprobate children return to Sheol from whence they came: Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / RETURN to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. You've heard about Sheol, of course, in 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment; and is Tartarus considered as a deep part of Sheol inside the earth? Well Psalm 9:17 tells us: The wicked do turn back / RETURN to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as RETURN 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse where eisegesis comes into play to decrease the possibility that the wicked are seen to come to live on earth from Sheol and return there on their death to finish out their wait for judgement

 

[TedT]

Sinning does prove death.

And WHY would a person have to have lived BEFORE being born in order to be a sinner?

You put this backward to prove your point?

If we are sinners because we are born then GOD is creating sinners by means of Adam, which smells of error.

Death proves sinfulness even though that has been distorted to mean "because of Adam" since our life with the ability to make free will moral decisions before our conception is repudiated.

 

[TedT]

You never replied to my post no. 123
Question: WHAT MAKES AN ACTION TURN INTO A SIN?

Try post 138, sigh.

 

[TedT]

No Ted.
Usually if a person that has been studying the bible for 40 years has never heard of a concept before...
it usually means it's not biblical...IOW,,,it's not taught in the bible.

Then what do you say to the fact that this theory is thousands of years old but it ignored because it was rejected and suppressed by the power of the current authorities???

PCE is an ancient concept as old as the theory of our being created on earth at our conception, taught in rabbinic literature and can be seen to be in the Bible, both the protestant bible and expressly in the Catholic bible though Christianity as a whole denies this interpretation of what is written in favour of the current favorite theory that we are created on earth...as sinners....contrary to GOD's attribute of perfect holiness, ie, HE cannot create evil by any means.

Judaism
In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3: http://tinyurl.com/cnpetph

This was loooong before Origen, the first practical Christian theologian c. 185 – c. 253. who espoused our pre-conception existence but you have never heard of it???

Bible [including over 3 dozen verses...I've barely scratched the surface here]
For example, Origen quoted in his explanation of his pce pov: Jeremiah 1:5 we read, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

But Origen claimed his strongest impulse to accept PCE theology arose from his study of Romans 9:14
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Origen argued that God could not love Jacob and hate Esau until Jacob had done something worthy of love and Esau had done something worthy of hatred, therefore, this passage must mean that Jacob and Esau who had not yet done good or evil in this life that their conduct before this life was the reason why Esau would serve Jacob. He rejected the position that God loves or hates a soul based on its inclination toward good or evil, before the soul actually commits a good or evil act.

A look at his trial some hundreds of years after his death proves that most of his being condemned was due to the politics of the day, not his theology though his Christology is horrendous, sigh.

Catholicism:
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body ......
or
I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.
is pretty straight forward.

Why in your Protestant studies have you not come across this bit which is accepted by some to be in the canon of scripture? Also known as the Book of Wisdom, it is generally dated to the mid-1st century BCE (around 50 BCE)...

so you disparagement of PCE as new fangled and, since it is unknown to you thru your studies, this must prove it is not biblical...IOW,,,it's not taught in the bible, I must disagree.

 

[MTMattie]

I conclude it is implied in the fact that death comes from sin and that sin creates death James 1:15, and since infants die in the womb, they must have chosen to be sinful before their conception.

The current reason not to accept this is that the church has stood against it from the Rabbis who denied Christ to the early Fathers who passed it on down.

All the more reason that an infant be baptized.... dont you think?

 

[TedT]

No Ted.
No new revelation.

Please share your interpretation of
Daniel 12: 9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. especially closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

And: where is the content of the little bible written:
Revelations 10:8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the small scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land.” 9 And I went to the angel and said, “Give me the small scroll.”

“Take it and eat it,” he said. “It will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” 10 So I took the small scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it; and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned bitter. Is it not yet to be taught?

In John 16:12, Jesus said: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. Hence, Jesus knew some truth that He was unable to disclose to us, and He also knew that this truth would someday be disclosed to the Church. In other words, Jesus knew that the Church was going to receive a new revelation in the future. Do you think we have it?


John 16:25 These things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Which time was Jesus referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in His future (say like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He not?

I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators) yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so plainly yet?

In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly, or does it yet speak to us in proverbs? A short perusal of just this forum gives us the answer to that...

 

[MTMattie]

An impure motive or desire that does not perfectly glorify God but serves rather to exalt self.

Agreed

 

[TedT]

gnostics.

You keep using that word....I don't think you know what it means, sigh....with apologies to Mr. Montoya.

 

[TedT]

Stop reading Strong's and start reading the bible.

I read the Bible cover to cover three times (maybe rushing the begats a bit) and I studied Calvinism, Arminianism,Universalism, and the cults, seeking GOD's truth since the early 70s. GOD led me to PCE and encouraged me to accept it as my home, aided strongly by Strong's etc.

I only quote Stong to show I am not making the word up and that PCE is well within the meaning of the words of scripture.

 

[TedT]

It's kind of odd when NO ONE understands you or accepts your theory.
This would make me be worried.

Yet it is an ancient theology of our creation...how has Christianity missed it? By it being ignored and just not taught as a possibility?

 

[TedT]

WHERE did Rebekah go to speak to God.
Is there like a special office somewhere that a person can go to?

HOW did God reply to her?
Was it, like, in a phone call?
An email?
HOW??

So far I only see a meaningless red herring of some sort...explain your point or get off the stage.

 

[TedT]

Maybe you shouldn't be reading the OT...it could be dangerous to your spiritual health.

I've read it all but it was the Holy Spirit that convinced me it was the truth....

 

[TedT]

Children are not held accountable.

...then they suffer and die for no reason.

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam was in fact the third person to sin in the garden...first the serpent came with a sinful intent to beguile them and secondly Eve agreed with the serpent and ate of the poisonous fruit, and only then did Adam eat.

So I find this ordinary interpretation that Adam brought sin into the world by eating the fruit himself to be lacking as the only way I can see Adam doing that is if he brought sinfulness with him when GOD brought him to the garden as the first person to be brought and sowed him into the body HE had just made for him. I see four other hints that Adam and Eve were sinners before eating the fruit in the garden which I often share.

It does not say his sin caused others to become sinful, it says that he brought death to all sinners in this world.

Now verse 19, 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. seems to be pretty final that
Adam made or caused many to be sinful...

But again I can offer an alternative interpretation that disarms this verse if accepted.

I contend that GOD WOULD NEVER MAKE OR CREATE US EVIL

Who said God created us evil?

by putting us into Adam's sin or sin nature or whatever evil name you want to give to us for becoming conceived and born as human! Light cannot produce dark.

Who said it does?

Loving righteousness cannot produce evil by any means, let alone by a foolish surrogate. It makes no sense... I used to accept this interpretation because I could see no alternative but then I was introduced to PCE theology and it became clear to me how we could be sinners by our own free will decision to sin and yet be sinners from our conception.

Well Ted...you were introduced to a heresy.
I'm not going to debate a heresy with you.
If you want to believe a heresy instead of mainline Christianity...
go right ahead.

Have you never noticed that the verb MAKE in Romans 5:19 is also defined by Strong in his concordance as H2525 kathistémi:
• to appoint one to administer an office
• to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
• to show or exhibit one's self
• to come forward as

I don't use Strong's.
I use the bible written by those that knew Jesus.

all of which mean the same thing as make without using make to mean to be created that way by the disobedience of the one man. It is within the word to see that by becoming a human in Adam, they proved they were sinful; they were declared to be, shown to be, already sinners which is what I contend is the meaning of Rev 12:4-9 that all and only sinners were flung out of heaven into the earth and, according to HIS will, are slowly sown into the world as sinners for HIS pleasure as per Matt 13:36-39.

OK.
I'm done here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 5:12 has nothing to do with what makes an action sin. You are very confused and thinking emotionally instead of Biblically.

This a rather interesting comment since I use scripture and I haven't seen any from YOU yet.

There could BE no "sin of ignorance" if ignorance prevented sin. Whether God grants measures of mercy towards ignorance is a separate question from whether you can sin without knowing it.

I didn't say you could sin without knowing it.

I SAID, as Romans 5:13 states:
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

What does Romans 5:13 mean to you?

God says sin is sin whether you know it or not,

True!
But are we imputed with it?

it doesn't make it "okay" because he is merciful.

Your putting words into my mouth.
Please post where I made this most horrible statement.

And we should not be telling God what he should or should not do, but allow God to actually be the authority instead of what we feel is "okay" for him to do.

And WHERE did I post the above?

although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. (1 Tim. 1:13 NKJ)

Dizerner....
You're a dangerous person to speak to.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying...
and you put words into my mouth that I would NEVER say.

Why not post Romans 5:12-14 and then give us your understanding of it....
line by line, like I did?

 

[GodsGrace]

The SIN nature is BY DEFINITION sin.



Yes, I do. It is a nature that is SINFUL.

SIN. NATURE.

You are being quite stubborn.

Why are you getting personal?
Could we stick to scripture please?

Wow. What are you even talking about. I never mentioned anything about that nor asked you to care.



Lol. I'm not going to re-paste the same things in here because you can't be bothered to click a mouse.

Anyone honestly searching for the truth wouldn't care about that, it's just an excuse.

Well actually Dizerner,,,I DO believe I have the truth.
If a person doesn't even understand what the sin nature is....the flesh that Paul speaks of...
I think he's still afar from the truth.

Let me ask you this:
1. What makes you sin?
2. When you became born again did this sin nature we Christians speak of go away?

Another dishonest interlocutor.

Please realize how badly you are resisting the Holy Spirit and clinging to your own prideful understanding and self-righteous feelings.


See you at the Judgment seat of Christ, if you humble yourself enough to actually trust his suffering for your wickedness.

I'm DONE here.

Yes sir.
You sure are done.
And please don't worry about my soul.

If YOU believe a person will be saved by their doctrine...
then my dear Dizerner...
THAT is HOW you will be judged.

Jesus said as you judge, so will you be judged.
That's quite a load you're carrying there.

 

[TedT]

All the more reason that an infant be baptized.... dont you think?

My personal opinion of the salvative effects of baptism tend towards the idea that it is not necessary for salvation...