Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[TedT]

Want to know the names of some that got new revelation:

MUHAMMAD
JOHN SMITH
CHARLES RUSSELL
ELLEN WHITE

If false revelations prove all revelations are false that we are left with nothing...

 

[TedT]

Who said God created us evil?

Everyone who claims that GOD made us sinners of some sort (of any sort!) in Adam! That they hide this truism from themselves by doublethink does not prove anything....

Created sinful in Adam means:
- before my creation there was x amount of sin in the world.
- After my creation there was x+1 amount of sin in the world.
- Sinful in Adam means GOD creates sinners, a doctrine I detest.

 

[TedT]

If you want to believe a heresy instead of mainline Christianity...
go right ahead.

Spoken like a pharisee to a disciple....

 

[Cosmo]

...then they suffer and die for no reason.

No they have eternal life. But till then they live in a fallen world. We all suffer and die, it's where you spend eternity that matters.

 

[TedT]

We all suffer and die,

...for what reason for babies??? Death is the wages for sin (which you never address) and sin births death (which you never address). Good luck with your doublethink...

 

[TibiasDad]

the history of the false doctrine of original sin and childrens guilt

We must be very careful, my brother, and not allow rhetoric to be inflamed to the point of loosing reason.

Original Sin does not make one guilty, nor does lack of guilt deny OS.

Original Sin simply states that the effect of Adam’s actions has corrupted the whole of human nature in those subsequently descended from him so that all humanity is born apart from God, and naturally inclined to be enticed to seek their own desires over the desires of God. The result is that all will sin, even if we are not held culpable for our actions until a point of legal and rational accountability.

I will not seek to establish an age at which this accountability can be applied, but it is certainly sooner rather than later for most of us. Cognizance of “right and wrong” and the ability to willingly choose to do that which is knowingly wrong is not a late development in most people, and the “natural” way in which we all have fallen prey to this type of behavior is an expression that we are not prone to moving toward God’s ways, even in the most positive of circumstances and environments.

The “innocence” of early childhood is an expression of accountability rather than the purity of our hearts and minds as they are born naturally. This does not mean that OS is impossible or precluded.

I always have said that we never have to teach a child to say “no”! But we always have to teach them to obey. Obedience is not natural.


Doug

 

[Johann]

We must be very careful, my brother, and not allow rhetoric to be inflamed to the point of loosing reason.

Original Sin does not make one guilty, nor does lack of guilt deny OS.

Original Sin simply states the the effect of Adam’s actions has corrupted the whole of human nature in those subsequently descended from him so that all humanity is born apart from God, and naturally inclined to be enticed to seek their own desires over the desires of God. The result is that all will sin, even if we are not held culpable for our actions until a point of legal and rational accountability.

I will not seek to establish an age at which this accountability can be applied, but it is certainly sooner rather than later for most of us. Cognizance of “right and wrong” and the ability to willingly choose to do that which is knowingly wrong is not a late development in most people, and the “natural” way in which we all have fallen prey to this type of behavior is an expression that we are not prone to moving toward God’s ways, even in the most positive of circumstances and environments.

The “innocence” of early childhood is an expression of accountability rather than the purity of our hearts and minds as they are born naturally. This does not mean that OS is impossible or precluded.

I always have said that we never have to teach a child to say “no”! But we always have to teach them to obey. Obedience is not natural.


Doug

Ever read the Hard Sayings of the Bible by F.F.Bruce @TibiasDad?


[Adam] transgressed. … Thou didst appoint death for him and for his descendants. …

For the first Adam, burdened with an evil heart, transgressed and was overcome, as were
also all who were descended from him. Thus the disease became permanent. (2 Esdras
3:7, 21–22)

O Adam, what have you done? For though it was you who sinned, the fall was not yours
alone, but ours also who are your descendants. (2 Esdras 7:118)

Paul clearly reflects this Jewish understanding in Romans 5:12–13. Adam, the typical
representative and first human being, yields to the temptation to determine his own existence
and his own destiny (that is, he sins). The result of that self-determination is death. Death is
the condition of separateness, since the creature apart from the Creator does not have life.
Physical death is clearly a part of this picture in the Hebrew-Pauline understanding.
Separation from the source of life results in decay and disintegration.

J.

 

[Complete]

'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.'
(Rom 5:12-14)

Hello @civic,

If you have had children, you will know that they are capable of acts of disobedience from babyhood. They are not without sin. They are capable of knowing right from wrong.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Its appalling to condemn innocent children- Even the calvinst Gill agree's from Jer 2:34- they are INNOCENT not guilty of sin,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents,.... Either of the innocent infants of poor persons, who were sacrificed to Moloch; or of the poor prophets of the Lord, whom they slew,

Hello @civic,

The word 'innocents' in Jeremiah 2:34, refers to the helpless, not to children necessarily.

and here from Jeremiah

Jeremiah 19:2 and go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the entry of the Potsherd Gate, and proclaim there the words that I tell you…4 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with THE BLOOD OF INNOCENTS…6 therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

Again, the blood of innocents, refers to the helpless, not necessarily children only.

God judged them by having the Babylonians doing to them what they did to their children. The Jews Slaughtering their innocent children and God had them slaughtered by the Babylonians.

Psalm 106:34 They (the Israelites) did not destroy the peoples (the Canaanites), as the Lord commanded them, 35 but they mixed with the nations and learned to do as they did. 36 They served their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They SACRIFICED THEIR SONS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS TO THE DEMONS; 38 they poured out INNOCENT BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.

The same must be said about this also.

conclusion: how many time does God/Jesus have to say children are INNOCENT not guilty before you will believe ?

Jesus affirms the above in the N.T. Woe to those who cause any little ones to stumble.

And more scripture from Jesus

Matthew 18:2-5
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

Mark 9:36-37
Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”

Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.

Luke 9:47-48
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”

Luke 18:15-17
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

conclusion :There is no transmission of a fallen nature, a sin nature that originated with augustine. Lets see what God declares about sin.

Ezekiel 18:4
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die

Ezekiel 18:20
“The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.”

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6
Yet he did not put the sons of the murderers to death, but acted according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers must not be put to death for their children, and children must not be put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Jeremiah 31:30
Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. If anyone eats the sour grapes, his own teeth will be set on edge.

And we have the wisdom of Job below who knew had he died as a child he would be at peace with the Lord as an innocent and not condemned in hell as guilty as some falsely teach/believe. Job knew there was no torment and suffering if he had died as a child.

Job 3:11 “Why did I not die at birth, come out from the womb and expire?…13 For then I would have lain DOWN AND BEEN QUIET; I WOULD HAVE SLEPT; THEN I WOULD HAVE BEEN AT REST.

The Bible is in one accord on the innocence of children and that there is no guilt of sin.


hope this helps !!!

No, @civic, the Lord says, 'such as these' in relation to children coming to Him. Those coming to Jesus His disciples must not refuse, for the Kingdom of Heaven consisted of such as they. The very act of coming to Jesus is what made them accepted, coming humbly like a little child, with hearts open and receptive to repentance.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Cosmo]

...for what reason for babies??? Death is the wages for sin (which you never address) and sin births death (which you never address). Good luck with your doublethink...

Children that die prior to reaching full moral accountability go to heaven.

Actual sin refers to the volitional disobedience of created beings to God their creator. In the case of Adam’s descendants, actual sin realizes or affirms original sin.

For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

[Complete]

Children that die prior to reaching full moral accountability go to heaven.

Actual sin refers to the volitional disobedience of created beings to God their creator. In the case of Adam’s descendants, actual sin realizes or affirms original sin.

For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Hello @Cosmo,

Nobody has gone to heaven yet, all await resurrection, either to judgment or to life eternal. Those believers who have died, 'In Christ' are reckoned by God to be, 'asleep in Christ', for they have the hope of life in Christ Jesus. Those who are unbelieving, are in the place of the dead (i.e., Hell), awaiting judgment, unconscious in death, therefore oblivious of the passage of time, for their 'breath of life' or 'spirit' has gone back to God who gave it.

There is no life apart from resurrection.
and that by the power of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Cosmo]

Hi Chris.

Jesus told The thief that he would be in paradise with Jesus on that very same day.

‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise’”

Luke 23:46​

According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses who die remain in an unconscious state of “soul sleep” until the resurrection.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:6–8

Here, the apostle Paul did not say that to be away from the body is to cease consciousness until the resurrection. And he did not say that to be out of the body was to be at home in purgatory.

In Jesus’ story of the rich man and Lazarus, the beggar died, and “the angels carried him to Abraham’s side” (Luke 16:22). This seems to have been an immediate event, with no lapse of time between Lazarus’ death and his being picked up by the angels. In John’s vision of heaven, he sees “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained” (Revelation 6:9). As these believers in heaven await vengeance and the resurrection of their bodies, they converse with the Lord. It seems that, as soon as they were martyred, they were in heaven. GOT?

 

[GodsGrace]

You put this backward to prove your point?

If we are sinners because we are born then GOD is creating sinners by means of Adam, which smells of error.

Death proves sinfulness even though that has been distorted to mean "because of Adam" since our life with the ability to make free will moral decisions before our conception is repudiated.

Ted....you really need to understand the story of Adam and Eve and the meaning of Romans 5:12 to about 19.

We ARE NOT born sinners.
We haven't sin yet when we are born.

We are born STAINED with the sin of Adam.....
but HE committed the first sin, not each and every one of us.

We DID NOT eat of the forbidden fruit.
We DID NOT disobey Gop in the Garden.

Adam passed on THE STAIN of his sin...
NOT HIS SIN.

The bible is very clear that we are each responsible for our own sinning and are not responsible for the sins
of other persons.


Jeremiah 31:30
30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.



Deuteronomy 24:16
16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.



Galatians 6:4-5
4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
5 For each one will bear his own load.

 

[GodsGrace]

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. You are guilty of sin in your desires which when acted upon causes, creates, death. NO sin - no death.

I replied to you post no. 138 stating that it does NOT answer the question.

And did YOU read my post 141 re Romans 5?
I don't see a repudiation.

James 1:14-15 YOUR verse
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

You're explaining how sin starts, we all agree on this.
What I'm asking you goes to the CAUSE of sin:


HOW is a person tempted?
WHERE do your evil desires come from?
HOW are you enticed?

The above is what you have not replied to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then what do you say to the fact that this theory is thousands of years old but it ignored because it was rejected and suppressed by the power of the current authorities???

PCE is an ancient concept as old as the theory of our being created on earth at our conception, taught in rabbinic literature and can be seen to be in the Bible, both the protestant bible and expressly in the Catholic bible though Christianity as a whole denies this interpretation of what is written in favour of the current favorite theory that we are created on earth...as sinners....contrary to GOD's attribute of perfect holiness, ie, HE cannot create evil by any means.

Judaism
In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3: http://tinyurl.com/cnpetph

This was loooong before Origen, the first practical Christian theologian c. 185 – c. 253. who espoused our pre-conception existence but you have never heard of it???

Bible [including over 3 dozen verses...I've barely scratched the surface here]
For example, Origen quoted in his explanation of his pce pov: Jeremiah 1:5 we read, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

But Origen claimed his strongest impulse to accept PCE theology arose from his study of Romans 9:14
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Origen argued that God could not love Jacob and hate Esau until Jacob had done something worthy of love and Esau had done something worthy of hatred, therefore, this passage must mean that Jacob and Esau who had not yet done good or evil in this life that their conduct before this life was the reason why Esau would serve Jacob. He rejected the position that God loves or hates a soul based on its inclination toward good or evil, before the soul actually commits a good or evil act.

A look at his trial some hundreds of years after his death proves that most of his being condemned was due to the politics of the day, not his theology though his Christology is horrendous, sigh.

Catholicism:
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body ......
or
I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.
is pretty straight forward.

Why in your Protestant studies have you not come across this bit which is accepted by some to be in the canon of scripture? Also known as the Book of Wisdom, it is generally dated to the mid-1st century BCE (around 50 BCE)...

so you disparagement of PCE as new fangled and, since it is unknown to you thru your studies, this must prove it is not biblical...IOW,,,it's not taught in the bible, I must disagree.

Look Ted....
Origin did NOT teach that we lived somehow in a prior life.

What I'm saying is this:
I CANNOT debate with you a belief system that DID NOT EXIST in the early church.
If you want to start a thread on this....go ahead. I'm familiar with the Early Church Fathers and I know this concept did NOT EXIST in the early church.

I'm saying that I'm interested in discussing WHY we sin as explained in scripture.
I like to stick to scripture because when quoting the Early Fathers you have to make sure youi're not quoting a gnostic.
You do know that some of them were gnostic, right?

If you can explain, biblically, HOW one comes to sin...OK...
otherwise, yes, I'm going to end here.

 

[TedT]

Origin did NOT teach that we lived somehow in a prior life.

Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, IEP

Origen of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

iep.utm.edu

In this work Origen establishes his main doctrines, including that of the Holy Trinity (based upon standard Middle Platonic triadic emanation schemas); the pre-existence AND FALL of souls; multiple ages and transmigration of souls; and the eventual restoration of all souls to a state of dynamic perfection in proximity to the godhead.

<headshake, sigh>

 

[TedT]

I'm familiar with the Early Church Fathers and I know this concept did NOT EXIST in the early church.

Riiiiight - the council declared some of the interpretations of his works as heresies without anyone knowing what they were....makes sense to some I guess.

Rather:

... but it is unfortunately not clear whether Origen held to all of the beliefs in question himself, or whether they were later abuses by his "followers." In any case, read Origen. He, along with Irenaeus, were practically the founders of Catholic theology and exegesis.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please share your interpretation of
Daniel 12: 9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. especially closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

And: where is the content of the little bible written:
Revelations 10:8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the small scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land.” 9 And I went to the angel and said, “Give me the small scroll.”

“Take it and eat it,” he said. “It will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” 10 So I took the small scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it; and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned bitter. Is it not yet to be taught?

I can't respond to Daniel because, as I've stated, I'm not well-versed in eschatology.

In John 16:12, Jesus said: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. Hence, Jesus knew some truth that He was unable to disclose to us, and He also knew that this truth would someday be disclosed to the Church. In other words, Jesus knew that the Church was going to receive a new revelation in the future. Do you think we have it?


John 16:25 These things have I (Jesus) spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Which time was Jesus referring to? Was He speaking of a time more in His future (say like this time)? Well, if it was a time more in the future, then He would be referring to a future doctrinal revelation, would He not?

I guess that one way to tell the time of its fulfilment is to ask ourselves whether we (that is, our educated commentators) yet plainly know of the Father, or whether we do not have it so plainly yet?

In other words, do we understand the Bible plainly, or does it yet speak to us in proverbs? A short perusal of just this forum gives us the answer to that...

Here's what Jesus said:

John 16:12:13
12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot * bear them now.
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.


Has the Holy Spirit come yet?
Or are we still waiting for Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

You keep using that word....I don't think you know what it means, sigh....with apologies to Mr. Montoya.

No Ted.
ONLY YOU know what a gnostic is.
The rest of us have no idea what a gnostic is.
Happily, we have YOU to teach us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read the Bible cover to cover three times (maybe rushing the begats a bit) and I studied Calvinism, Arminianism,Universalism, and the cults, seeking GOD's truth since the early 70s. GOD led me to PCE and encouraged me to accept it as my home, aided strongly by Strong's etc.

I only quote Stong to show I am not making the word up and that PCE is well within the meaning of the words of scripture.

You don't need to quote strong's so the rest of us blokes know you didn't make it up.
NEWS FLASH: WE have bibles too!
We could look up the words for ourselves.