Canonicity

I have taken a very negative view of evangelical churches and Christianity in general lately. A church leader at the Calvary church in Winston Salem was arrested last week on sexual abuse and rape of a child. He is being held on a $250,000 bond. Another church leader and Sunday school teacher at an evangelical church in High Point was arrested on statutory rape of children going back 3 years. He is being held on a $500,000 bond. These 2 arrests happen in the same week.
It’s a disgrace to say the least and we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. There are many upright men who are faithful to their calling in Christendom. But these men who use God for their own sinful lusts should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the laws. It’s sickening to hear about such atrocities and those who prey upon the innocent.
 
I know. This is one more reason that "classifications" do NOT give certainty to relative actions. We must deal with the individual. Not the group. That is what I do. I appeal to groups to show that the masses are not where certainty will ever live....
I try not to use a wide paint brush when I evaluate people and situations, but unfortunately I do sometimes.
 
Back to our original discussion on the Jewish Didache.
In 1873, Greek Orthodox archbishop Philotheos Bryennios discovered a complete
manuscript of the Didache in a monastery in Istanbul. The Didache enjoyed wide
circulation in the early church and some like me even considered it canonical.
Numerous church writers mention the text, but somewhere around the 5th century
the work disappeared.
While there have been a plethora of commentaries on the Didache from Christian
and Jewish points of view, this is the first major work from a Messianic Jewish perspective.
The Way of Life will put the Didache back into its original context as a book that has
apostolic connections and was created especially for new Gentile believers who were
being introduced to Judaism and discipleship for the first time. The Way of Life will benefit
both Messianic Jews and Gentiles who desire to study the priorities and life of the earliest
believers in Yeshua and learn how Gentiles fit into the original Messianic movement.

Shalom
 
Back to our original discussion on the Jewish Didache.
In 1873, Greek Orthodox archbishop Philotheos Bryennios discovered a complete
manuscript of the Didache in a monastery in Istanbul. The Didache enjoyed wide
circulation in the early church and some like me even considered it canonical.
Numerous church writers mention the text, but somewhere around the 5th century
the work disappeared.
While there have been a plethora of commentaries on the Didache from Christian
and Jewish points of view, this is the first major work from a Messianic Jewish perspective.
The Way of Life will put the Didache back into its original context as a book that has
apostolic connections and was created especially for new Gentile believers who were
being introduced to Judaism and discipleship for the first time. The Way of Life will benefit
both Messianic Jews and Gentiles who desire to study the priorities and life of the earliest
believers in Yeshua and learn how Gentiles fit into the original Messianic movement.

Shalom

There are several self serving remarks in this commentary. Lets start with the obvious question.

Lets say the document actually dates back to the early church. Who is the author?
 
When we examine the material of the Didache, "there is nothing to identify the Didachist as anything
but a Messianic Jew." The longest title of the Didache, The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the
Twelve Apostles,
would have us believe that the Didache contains instructions that were transmitted
by the apostles through the halachic authority that was invested in them by the Master himself.
While scholars debate which, if any, of the book's titles were attached to its original composition,
this raises the question of whether or not the Didache actually goes back to the original twelve apostles.
Did the teaching in the Didache emerge from the oral traditions and legal rulings of the Jerusalem Council?
The suggested early date of composition coupled with the character of the contents makes that seem possible.
The Didache was the natural outgrowth of the Jerusalem Council's rulings regarding Gentiles in Acts 15.

One of the most compelling reasons to view the Didache as a first century document that could be linked
back to the teachings of the apostles is the inherent Jewish nature of the text. This is a quality lacking in most
other early non-canonical works. The Didache represents a community that was still "living within the ambit
of Torah" in which 'a high degree of continuity with the mother religion is preserved." The Didache preserves
a time when believers in Messiah were still within the fold of Judaism.

The contents of the Didache divide up nicely into four tractates. The first is the Two Ways section (chapters 1-6),
the second is on liturgy (7-10), the third is on congregational order and halacha (11-15), and the last section offers
a short apocalyptic teaching (16). The Didache can be classified as a type of "ancient Mishnah" that contains
"Judaeo-Christian halachot. The didache treats the same content areas as the Mishnah and comes up with its
prescriptions by using the same sources or methods as does Jewish halakhah. It presents numerous injunctions
on ethics as well as instructions in ceremonial commandments such as immersion, prayer, dietary laws, and priestly
dues. In essence, it contains a "brief manifesto of the fundamentals of life according to Judaism.

I bought the Jewish Didache which is called "The Way of Life" which is the Rediscovered Teachings of the Twelve
Jewish Apostles to the Gentiles by Toby Janicki on Amazon.

While you may see some ambiguity on homosexuality and abortion in the Old Testament (Tanakh) there is NO
ambiguity about these subjects in the Didache and on other life skills.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Shalom שלום
 
You simply are promoting your own choice as "the best"..... I have no desire to use such poor methods as you're appearing to employ yourself.
Hello @praise_yeshua

The Hebrew Bible Canon is the same books as the Protestant English OT Canon yet in different order.

The Hebrew Bible Canon was shared with you and you have been asked a couple times in the thread to provide the books in the Canon you think is correct.

Are you able to answer and provide your Canon list of books for the Greek OT you purported or will you continue to provide immature emotional outbursts and tirades?

Still waiting for your Greek OT list of Canon Books to be disclosed or whichever Canon Books list you believe are correct...?

Here are the blessed books of the Hebrew Canon in their precise order again for your reference which are the same books in the Protestant OT which splits out Kings 1 and 2, Samuel 1 and 2 and Ezra-Nehemiah and Chronicles 1 and 2.

Law

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

The Prophets

Joshua
Judges
Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Minor Prophets(Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachai)

The Writings

Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
Chronicles

Blessings,
Love Fountain
 
Hello @praise_yeshua

The Hebrew Bible Canon is the same books as the Protestant English OT Canon yet in different order.

The Hebrew Bible Canon was shared with you and you have been asked a couple times in the thread to provide the books in the Canon you think is correct.

Are you able to answer and provide your Canon list of books for the Greek OT you purported or will you continue to provide immature emotional outbursts and tirades?

Still waiting for your Greek OT list of Canon Books to be disclosed or whichever Canon Books list you believe are correct...?

Here are the blessed books of the Hebrew Canon in their precise order again for your reference which are the same books in the Protestant OT which splits out Kings 1 and 2, Samuel 1 and 2 and Ezra-Nehemiah and Chronicles 1 and 2.

Law

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

The Prophets

Joshua
Judges
Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Minor Prophets(Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachai)

The Writings

Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
Chronicles

Blessings,
Love Fountain
The term Old Testament, with its implication that there must be a corresponding New Testament, suggests to some that Judaism’s Bible and by extension Judaism are outdated and incomplete. Well-intended academics thus offered Hebrew Bible as a neutral alternative. However, the new language confuses more than it clarifies by erasing distinctions between the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh. It is understandable if Christians think the Old Testament and the Tanakh are one and the same thing, but a closer look reveals important distinctions. For example, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Christian Old Testament canons include additional books, either written or preserved in Greek (Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Maccabees, etc.), that are not in the Jewish canon. And some Orthodox communions only use the Greek translation of the Hebrew (the Septuagint)—which varies in word choices and length from the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. The Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh are also distinct from each other in terms of punctuation, canonical order, and emphases.
Jesus would have heard his Scriptures in Hebrew, perhaps accompanied by an Aramaic paraphrase (targum). However, New Testament quotations from the Hebrew Bible usually follow the Greek of the Septuagint. For example, Isa 7:14 (written circa 700 B.C.E.) describes a pregnant young woman (Hebrew ’almah). The Greek translates ’almah as parthenos, which came to mean virgin (as in the Parthenon), and Matt 1:23, following the Greek, does the same. Ps 37:11 states, “the meek shall inherit the land” (Hebrew, arets); the Greek, echoed in Matt 5:5, shifts focus away from the land of Israel, and in this version “the meek … will inherit the earth.”
Because the consonantal Hebrew text lacked punctuation, phrase breaks could be variously inserted. The Hebrew of Isa 40:3 predicts the return to Israel of the exiles in Babylon: “A voice cries out: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord.’” The Gospel of Mark repunctuates this same passage to introduce John the Baptist: “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord’” (Mark 1:3).
Interpretations of figures and images create yet another distinction between the (Christian) Old Testament and the (Jewish) Tanakh. For example, the Christian church understands Isaiah’s “suffering servant” (Isa 53:5-7) to be Jesus (Acts 8:3-36, John 19:34-37). In the synagogue, traditionally, the servant is Israel (see Isa 41:8, Isa 44:1, Isa 44:21, Isa 49:3); rabbinic sources also associate the servant with Moses, Rabbi Akiva, and a hidden Messiah who suffers from leprosy.
Differences in canonical order further create distinct interpretations. The Old Testament tucks Ruth between Judges and 1 Samuel; the book fits here chronologically, because Ruth is King David’s great-grandmother, and David is introduced in 1 Samuel. The Tanakh places Ruth in the Ketuvim (Writings), where her scroll (Hebrew, megillah) accompanies the Song of Songs, Lamentations, Qohelet (Ecclesiastes), and Esther. These scrolls are read, in full, on certain Jewish holidays; thus they have a more prominent place in the canon of Judaism than they do in the Christian canons.
Readers of the Old Testament know that it ends with the Prophets; the last book is Malachi, who predicts Elijah’s return before the “day of the Lord” (Mal 3:23-24 [Mal 4:5-6 in English]) or what came to be thought of as the messianic age. Tanakh readers know that the canonical division Nevi’im (Prophets) appears in the middle, followed by Ketuvim. Here, the last words fall to King Cyrus of Persia (2Chr 36:23), whose edict tells the Babylonian exiles, “Any one of you of all His people … let him go up” (JPS)—that is, go home. Thus the two canons tell a different story: the Old and New Testaments focus on salvation at the end-time, with the book of Revelation showing the rectification of the “fall” in Eden; the Tanakh speaks of returning to the homeland.
Finally, Jews and Christians read with different emphases. Judaism focuses on the Torah, which is read in its entirety in synagogues either annually or triennially. Each Torah reading is accompanied by a reading from the Prophets. Christian lectionaries focus on the Prophets, and the “Old Testament” selections are accompanied by New Testament readings. We even hear the texts differently. In most churches, the Bible is read in the vernacular; in the synagogue, it is chanted from the Hebrew.
Attention to the connections but also the differences between the Tanakh and the Old Testament allows us to respect the integrity of each tradition and to understand why we interpret texts differently.

elio hashalom עליו השלום
 
The term Old Testament, with its implication that there must be a corresponding New Testament, suggests to some that Judaism’s Bible and by extension Judaism are outdated and incomplete. Well-intended academics thus offered Hebrew Bible as a neutral alternative. However, the new language confuses more than it clarifies by erasing distinctions between the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh. It is understandable if Christians think the Old Testament and the Tanakh are one and the same thing, but a closer look reveals important distinctions. For example, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Christian Old Testament canons include additional books, either written or preserved in Greek (Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Maccabees, etc.), that are not in the Jewish canon. And some Orthodox communions only use the Greek translation of the Hebrew (the Septuagint)—which varies in word choices and length from the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. The Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh are also distinct from each other in terms of punctuation, canonical order, and emphases.
Jesus would have heard his Scriptures in Hebrew, perhaps accompanied by an Aramaic paraphrase (targum). However, New Testament quotations from the Hebrew Bible usually follow the Greek of the Septuagint. For example, Isa 7:14 (written circa 700 B.C.E.) describes a pregnant young woman (Hebrew ’almah). The Greek translates ’almah as parthenos, which came to mean virgin (as in the Parthenon), and Matt 1:23, following the Greek, does the same. Ps 37:11 states, “the meek shall inherit the land” (Hebrew, arets); the Greek, echoed in Matt 5:5, shifts focus away from the land of Israel, and in this version “the meek … will inherit the earth.”
Because the consonantal Hebrew text lacked punctuation, phrase breaks could be variously inserted. The Hebrew of Isa 40:3 predicts the return to Israel of the exiles in Babylon: “A voice cries out: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord.’” The Gospel of Mark repunctuates this same passage to introduce John the Baptist: “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord’” (Mark 1:3).
Interpretations of figures and images create yet another distinction between the (Christian) Old Testament and the (Jewish) Tanakh. For example, the Christian church understands Isaiah’s “suffering servant” (Isa 53:5-7) to be Jesus (Acts 8:3-36, John 19:34-37). In the synagogue, traditionally, the servant is Israel (see Isa 41:8, Isa 44:1, Isa 44:21, Isa 49:3); rabbinic sources also associate the servant with Moses, Rabbi Akiva, and a hidden Messiah who suffers from leprosy.
Differences in canonical order further create distinct interpretations. The Old Testament tucks Ruth between Judges and 1 Samuel; the book fits here chronologically, because Ruth is King David’s great-grandmother, and David is introduced in 1 Samuel. The Tanakh places Ruth in the Ketuvim (Writings), where her scroll (Hebrew, megillah) accompanies the Song of Songs, Lamentations, Qohelet (Ecclesiastes), and Esther. These scrolls are read, in full, on certain Jewish holidays; thus they have a more prominent place in the canon of Judaism than they do in the Christian canons.
Readers of the Old Testament know that it ends with the Prophets; the last book is Malachi, who predicts Elijah’s return before the “day of the Lord” (Mal 3:23-24 [Mal 4:5-6 in English]) or what came to be thought of as the messianic age. Tanakh readers know that the canonical division Nevi’im (Prophets) appears in the middle, followed by Ketuvim. Here, the last words fall to King Cyrus of Persia (2Chr 36:23), whose edict tells the Babylonian exiles, “Any one of you of all His people … let him go up” (JPS)—that is, go home. Thus the two canons tell a different story: the Old and New Testaments focus on salvation at the end-time, with the book of Revelation showing the rectification of the “fall” in Eden; the Tanakh speaks of returning to the homeland.
Finally, Jews and Christians read with different emphases. Judaism focuses on the Torah, which is read in its entirety in synagogues either annually or triennially. Each Torah reading is accompanied by a reading from the Prophets. Christian lectionaries focus on the Prophets, and the “Old Testament” selections are accompanied by New Testament readings. We even hear the texts differently. In most churches, the Bible is read in the vernacular; in the synagogue, it is chanted from the Hebrew.
Attention to the connections but also the differences between the Tanakh and the Old Testament allows us to respect the integrity of each tradition and to understand why we interpret texts differently.

elio hashalom עליו השלום

Hello @David Koberstein

It's helpful to utilize quotations and to sight a source so it doesn't appear plagiarized.

Here's the link to your source - Source of unquoted text from David Koberstein

Do you disagree with the Hebrew Bible Canon aka the TaNaKh that was shared prior as follows?

Here are the blessed books of the Hebrew Canon aka TaNaKh in their precise order.

Law

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

The Prophets

Joshua
Judges
Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Minor Prophets(Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachai)

The Writings

Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
Chronicles

Blessings,
Love Fountain
 
Hello @David Koberstein

It's helpful to utilize quotations and to sight a source so it doesn't appear plagiarized.

Here's the link to your source - Source of unquoted text from David Koberstein

Do you disagree with the Hebrew Bible Canon aka the TaNaKh that was shared prior as follows?

Here are the blessed books of the Hebrew Canon aka TaNaKh in their precise order.

Law

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

The Prophets

Joshua
Judges
Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Minor Prophets(Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachai)

The Writings

Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
Chronicles

Blessings,
Love Fountain
I am ✡️ Jewish and I have and use my Complete Jewish Bible. You are not revealing anything new that I already don't know. Sometimes I reveal my sources of relevant information and sometimes I don't. That's my perogative. It would be nice for you to use the Hebrew names for the Hebrew Canon of the Old Covenant, but perhaps you don't know Hebrew.
Shalom
 
Hello @praise_yeshua

The Hebrew Bible Canon is the same books as the Protestant English OT Canon yet in different order.

Not true. You've listed words that come from Greek. The English derivative word for "Genesis" comes from the Greek OT distinction. NOT Hebrew.

The English word from Hebrew is "Bereshit". The Hebrew OT is large only distinguish by categories such as "Torah" and etc. Bible verses and such distinctions come from English. They first appeared in the Geneva Bible (THE Protestant Bible from the Reformers. Not the KJV).

I ask that you stay true to the evidence. If you're going to insist upon a solely Hebrew tradition, then stop using Greek.

You will find this task to be impossible. You know why? Because there is NO understanding of modern Hebrew manuscripts without the Greek OT/language.

I learned this a very long time ago. Never meet anyone that could establish otherwise. So go for it. However, stop using Greek sources to stay true to your claims.

The Hebrew Bible Canon was shared with you and you have been asked a couple times in the thread to provide the books in the Canon you think is correct.

I've already given you the answer. Did you read everything I wrote? I referenced Codex Alexandrinus. Which is the premier collection of writings preserved by God. The word "Bible" come from Greek. Ta Biblia. It is collection of writings. Ta Biblia is an appeal to a "holy" set of writings.

I have no idea why you think you're waiting on me to answer the questions you put forth.
 
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I am ✡️ Jewish and I have and use my Complete Jewish Bible. You are not revealing anything new that I already don't know. Sometimes I reveal my sources of relevant information and sometimes I don't. That's my perogative. It would be nice for you to use the Hebrew names for the Hebrew Canon of the Old Covenant, but perhaps you don't know Hebrew.
Shalom

True. Even then, words like Bereshit are not fully understood. Jesus referenced "Moses" and the "prophets".

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
 
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3. I have my own list of canonical books. I believe this subject is important enough to not allow other men to define that list for me. I put forth extensive effort to know the subject so as to accurately defend my list.

Hello @Everyone ,

Does anyone know what @praise_yeshua 's list of canonical books are?

Please completely list each book in the following if anyone knows?

1)
2)
3)
etc....)


Blessings,
Love Fountain
 
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