Peter, James and Barnabas were very wrong..... Why accept 1 and 2nd Peter or James?

[mikesw]

I believe this scenario is unlikely due to the words of Paul.

Gal 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong.

Peter did wrong. He separated from gentiles. It was wrong due to the unity of the church. It was wrong because he was doing a work of the law. It was also invalid as a law because it countered scriptures.

 

[David Koberstein]

The Tree of Life Version is also another good Messianic Jewish Bible

I use the Complete Jewish Study Bible by
David H. Stern. You can buy it on Amazon.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Peter did wrong. He separated from gentiles. It was wrong due to the unity of the church. It was wrong because he was doing a work of the law. It was also invalid as a law because it countered scriptures.

The disciples of Christ well knew that Gentiles were included in the offering of Jesus Christ for sin. Take for example the fact that the Gospel spread from among believers that returned home from Israel and ended up forming the church at Rome referenced by Paul in

Rom 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I often intended to come to you (and was prevented until now), so that I may have some fruit even among you, just as I already have among the rest of the Gentiles.

Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch is also proof of salvation among the Gentiles long before Cornelius. Paul specific proclaims that the wall that stood between Jews and Gentiles was destroyed at Calvary.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Care to extrapolate

There are times in various English editions (Including "Messianic" Editions) where a particular word is chosen in translation that flavors/leans to promoting a certain doctrinal position.

One example I usually give is "Concupiscence". The KJV and DRB and other Latin leaning editions use Concupiscence to sell the doctrine of Total Depravity. The Greek source simply means lust. Not Concupiscence.

 

[mikesw]

The disciples of Christ well knew that Gentiles were included in the offering of Jesus Christ for sin. Take for example the fact that the Gospel spread from among believers that returned home from Israel and ended up forming the church at Rome referenced by Paul in

Rom 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I often intended to come to you (and was prevented until now), so that I may have some fruit even among you, just as I already have among the rest of the Gentiles.

Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch is also proof of salvation among the Gentiles long before Cornelius. Paul specific proclaims that the wall that stood between Jews and Gentiles was destroyed at Calvary.

Sure. Nothing contests that. Peter was in Antioch gathering with Jews and gentiles due to the inclusion of gentiles. Peter's behavior likely was due to a threat against his life by persecutors in Jerusalem. I think James was sending messengers because James heard a viable rumor to this respect.

 

[DavidTree]

I believe that translation shouldn't be tailored to particular believers. Notes are fine but when making "word choices", it matter most if those words accurately communicate the thought/idea/premise or not. Let every man make his own choice to believe whatever comes out of that process.

Christians are increasingly coming to appreciate their "Jewish roots." Many have gone beyond merely acknowledging that Jesus was
a Jew, that the early disciples and apostles were Jewish, or that Christianity has come out of Judaism. They are searching out the Jewish
roots of their own faith. They are respecting and even loving the Jews. They are doing what they can to bless the Jewish people, in
recognition of Genesis 12:3, "I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse anyone who curses you; and by you all the families of the
earth will be blessed."
But there is a deeper reason for paying attention to the Jewish people, a reason that ultimately must shake the very identity of a
Christian to its core. The foundational text is Ephesians 2:11-13, which says;

Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth-called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation
on their flesh, are called the Circumcised-at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Israel. You were
foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God. But now, you who were
once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood.

So, according to this passage, what is it that God, through his Messiah Yeshua, does for human beings?
The answer:
(1) He makes them conscience of what sin is, and through Yeshua the Messiah he offers forgiveness of sin (this is taught in the ten verses
preceding the above citation).
Then, if they are Gentiles (such as Paul is addressing here) and therefore do not already belong to his own special people, the People of God.
(2) he makes them part of the People of God.
(3) he makes them participate in his covenants.
(4) he fulfills his promises.
(5) he gives them hope in this difficult world, and finally,
(6) he makes his very self known to them.

If they are Jews and therefore do belong to the People of God, they already have items (2) through (6) and do not need to be given
them again. I'll say it differently: Jews already have (2) through (6) and the only new thing that comes to them through Yeshua is (1).
Thus, assured forgiveness of sin is the last thing Jews get. Gentiles get forgiveness of sin first, but it is only through Yeshua connection
that Gentiles gain covenants, the promises, hope and intimacy with God. It is only because and when they have been joined to the Jews
that they get these things. Jews have them already---but without the forgiveness of sins through Yeshua's atoning death they gain
nothing thereby in the world to come.

There is a sequencing to these six truths, and the sequencing is different for Jews than for Christians. Sequencing may seem an
unimportant detail, but I submit that at this time getting it right is the most important challenge facing the Body of Messiah!

David H. Stern The Church's Biggest Challenge More than Just "Loving" the Jews

The Jews that are near and the Gentiles that are afar-off are BOTH standing Outside the DOOR.

The Jew is 'near' the DOOR because of Avraham and the covenants = yet they remain Outside
The DOOR is only Opened for the Jew who follows in the Faith of Avraham:
"Avraham believed G'd(WORD) and it was credited to him for Righteousness."

Each Jews MUST Believe as faithful Avraham or they remain outside the DOOR = Read Isaiah 1:1-4

the Gentile who is afar off CANNOT find his/her way unless Elohim FATHER Calls out to them.
If they hear and draw NEAR to the DOOR, they may Enter but ONLY thru the BLOOD of Adonai YAHshua HaMashiach

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Messiah YAHshua, you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah.

 

[DavidTree]

There are times in various English editions (Including "Messianic" Editions) where a particular word is chosen in translation that flavors/leans to promoting a certain doctrinal position.

One example I usually give is "Concupiscence". The KJV and DRB and other Latin leaning editions use Concupiscence to sell the doctrine of Total Depravity. The Greek source simply means lust. Not Concupiscence.

As i expected but wanted to hear from you - Thank You

 

[David Koberstein]

There are times in various English editions (Including "Messianic" Editions) where a particular word is chosen in translation that flavors/leans to promoting a certain doctrinal position.

One example I usually give is "Concupiscence". The KJV and DRB and other Latin leaning editions use Concupiscence to sell the doctrine of Total Depravity. The Greek source simply means lust. Not Concupiscence.

I would say most Bible translations will take you down a particular doctrine road of their preference.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sure. Nothing contests that. Peter was in Antioch gathering with Jews and gentiles due to the inclusion of gentiles. Peter's behavior likely was due to a threat against his life by persecutors in Jerusalem. I think James was sending messengers because James heard a viable rumor to this respect.

Jonah is a perfect example of the hatred that existed among Jews for Gentiles that God forgave. That hatred still exists to some degree now among Jews. That hatred existed in the disciples of Christ. It can be seen in their lack of actions to bring the message of God to Gentiles. It is the reason that Peter didn't understand the vision that God gave Him and the reason that God called Saul/Paul to do what the disciples at Jerusalem would and did refuse to do.

Those that converted @ Pentecost went back home to their places and embraced Gentiles. The church at Jerusalem clearly rejected such teachings until it came to a "head" in the vision of Peter. Both Peter and James resisted God just like Stephen referenced how the Jews killed the prophets.

Act 7:51 “You stubborn people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always resisting the Holy Spirit, like your ancestors did!
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They killed those who foretold long ago the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become!
Act 7:53 You received the law by decrees given by angels, but you did not obey it.”

I have nothing against Israel. In fact, I support them politically but the journey of the "Jew" that must take place to forget this animosity that exists between them and the rest of the world to embrace their joint heirs in Jesus Christ. The same is true of Gentile Christians that target Messianic Jews.

These TWO must become ONE in Christ.

 

[David Koberstein]

Jonah is a perfect example of the hatred that existed among Jews for Gentiles that God forgave. That hatred still exists to some degree now among Jews. That hatred existed in the disciples of Christ. It can be seen in their lack of actions to bring the message of God to Gentiles. It is the reason that Peter didn't understand the vision that God gave Him and the reason that God called Saul/Paul to do what the disciples at Jerusalem would and did refuse to do.

Those that converted @ Pentecost went back home to their places and embraced Gentiles. The church at Jerusalem clearly rejected such teachings until it came to a "head" in the vision of Peter. Both Peter and James resisted God just like Stephen referenced how the Jews killed the prophets.

Act 7:51 “You stubborn people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always resisting the Holy Spirit, like your ancestors did!
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They killed those who foretold long ago the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become!
Act 7:53 You received the law by decrees given by angels, but you did not obey it.”

I have nothing against Israel. In fact, I support them politically but the journey of the "Jew" that must take place to forget this animosity that exists between them and the rest of the world to embrace their joint heirs in Jesus Christ. The same is true of Gentile Christians that target Messianic Jews.

These TWO must become ONE in Christ.

Amen!

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would say most Bible translations will take you down a particular doctrine road of their preference.

I agree. Which is why I study to know the difference. We should do this. It is an essential part of maturing in Christ. To own our own thoughts and beliefs in relationship to God and not simply repeat what we've been told.

 

[David Koberstein]

I agree. Which is why I study to know the difference. We should do this. It is an essential part of maturing in Christ. To own our own thoughts and beliefs in relationship to God and not simply repeat what we've been told.

Yes I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[mikesw]

Jonah is a perfect example of the hatred that existed among Jews for Gentiles that God forgave. That hatred still exists to some degree now among Jews. That hatred existed in the disciples of Christ. It can be seen in their lack of actions to bring the message of God to Gentiles. It is the reason that Peter didn't understand the vision that God gave Him and the reason that God called Saul/Paul to do what the disciples at Jerusalem would and did refuse to do.

Those that converted @ Pentecost went back home to their places and embraced Gentiles. The church at Jerusalem clearly rejected such teachings until it came to a "head" in the vision of Peter. Both Peter and James resisted God just like Stephen referenced how the Jews killed the prophets.

Act 7:51 “You stubborn people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always resisting the Holy Spirit, like your ancestors did!
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They killed those who foretold long ago the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become!
Act 7:53 You received the law by decrees given by angels, but you did not obey it.”

I have nothing against Israel. In fact, I support them politically but the journey of the "Jew" that must take place to forget this animosity that exists between them and the rest of the world to embrace their joint heirs in Jesus Christ. The same is true of Gentile Christians that target Messianic Jews.

These TWO must become ONE in Christ.

I mentioned earlier the sense that Peter was fine being around gentiles in Antioch. Individually we do not know before Acts 10 if Peter had animosity toward gentiles but we do know he saw them as unclean. Afterwards he was fine to be with gentiles. Peter obviously accepted his vision. And James has always been shown to be supportive of Paul. Only the interpretation of Galatians 2 has improperly led people to inject the idea that James acted against Paul.

 

[DavidTree]

I agree. Which is why I study to know the difference. We should do this. It is an essential part of maturing in Christ. To own our own thoughts and beliefs in relationship to God and not simply repeat what we've been told.

Genesis, The Gospel of John along with Acts is the KEY to SEEING, RECEIVING and HEALING for the Jew and Gentile.

John understood the BIG PICTURE from the BEGINNING much more then Peter.
Paul followed in John's understanding that Genesis is the Foundation of ALL Truth that was to Follow.

Thus the POWER of the Second Promise in the heart that Empties itself before the LORD and few there be that find it!

 

[praise_yeshua]

I mentioned earlier the sense that Peter was fine being around gentiles in Antioch. Individually we do not know before Acts 10 if Peter had animosity toward gentiles but we do know he saw them as unclean. Afterwards he was fine to be with gentiles. Peter obviously accepted his vision. And James has always been shown to be supportive of Paul. Only the interpretation of Galatians 2 has improperly led people to inject the idea that James acted against Paul.

I reject the idea that Peter accepted his vision. Besides, God shouldn't of had to give the vision to Peter to begin with.

Jesus told Peter and the disciples of Christ that He had many things left to tell them but they were not ready to receive it.

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Even the disciples resisted the Holy Spirit. You can see it from the very beginning of the establishment of the church at Jerusalem. Notice what Peter said....

Act 6:2 So the twelve called the whole group of the disciples together and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to wait on tables.

From servants of one another that had their feet washed by Jesus Christ Himself..... to refusing to "wait tables".......

Joh 13:13 You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and do so correctly, for that is what I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you too ought to wash one another’s feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example – you should do just as I have done for you.

I'm not condemning anyone. I am rightfully recognizing where mistakes were made.

I'm so glad that God doesn't throw the "clay away". He loves us even though we are often so unlike Him. I'm guilty of worse but we shouldn't stay that way.

 

[praise_yeshua]

James has always been shown to be supportive of Paul. Only the interpretation of Galatians 2 has improperly led people to inject the idea that James acted against Paul.

I disagree with this traditional teaching. There is no reconciling James with Paul at all. I started a thread about "James". Please join. I appreciate your comments.

There are many good things in the book having the name of "James" but I believe it represents a theology that is mistaken and immature.

 

[mikesw]

I agree. Which is why I study to know the difference. We should do this. It is an essential part of maturing in Christ. To own our own thoughts and beliefs in relationship to God and not simply repeat what we've been told.

People read the bible at different levels. Some gain a familiarity so they can follow the context of Sunday messages. Some just seek comfort (which is okay for that level of reading). Fewer people read to get informed deeper than what is taught. Even fewer can break from paradigms they have been led into. Then, among those, there are people who pick up new faulty paradigms.
Especially for these last two groups, the discussion is needed to allow one's newer paradigms to be challenged and debated. The more unusual the new concept is the more it requires humility, debate, and discussion. (Okay. there might be stubbornness to make sure one's idea is clearly laid out -- rather than just stubbornly believing their doctrine.)

 

[mikesw]

I reject the idea that Peter accepted his vision. Besides, God shouldn't of had to give the vision to Peter to begin with.

Jesus told Peter and the disciples of Christ that He had many things left to tell them but they were not ready to receive it.

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Even the disciples resisted the Holy Spirit. You can see it from the very beginning of the establishment of the church at Jerusalem. Notice what Peter said....

Act 6:2 So the twelve called the whole group of the disciples together and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to wait on tables.

Jesus has the proper timing understood. Peter's point in Act 6:2 is totally correct. The apostles were the direct witnesses of all Christ did -- and knew him in his incarnation and his resurrection. Their primary duty was to teach what Christ said and did. They also had to bear witness to Christ across all the Jewish nations, as seen in Matt 28:16-20. We do not hear much about most of the apostles since they had that narrow task.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus has the proper timing understood. Peter's point in Act 6:2 is totally correct. The apostles were the direct witnesses of all Christ did -- and knew him in his incarnation and his resurrection. Their primary duty was to teach what Christ said and did. They also had to bear witness to Christ across all the Jewish nations, as seen in Matt 28:16-20. We do not hear much about most of the apostles since they had that narrow task.

"Proper Timing"???

Nonsense. They became leaders of men. This almost always corrupts men. Even good men. They were never directed by God to establish a "pecking Order" to their leadership with one another or the people they served. They were servants to all men. Servants to each other.

Besides. NO ONE was asking Peter to "wait tables". That was his evil "spin" on the request. The Grecians had a valid compliant against their Hebrew priority. They had been showing preferential treat to Hebrews like they always did.

Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

They were servants the entire time Christ was them. Christ was their Master and the Master washed their feet in humility. There is no humility in Acts 6:2. Nothing but pride is to be found in Acts 6:2.

If Peter was "searching the Scriptures", he wouldn't have had to have a "vision" from God to tell him to correct his actions. Peter was resisting the Holy Spirit.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

How do you think they felt when God raised up Paul OUTSIDE of their immediate "company"?

 

[Studyman]

Brother, can you recognize the impact of sin that Peter, James and Baranabus had on Gentiles. I see excuses from your comments. Not recognition of how Gentiles became victims of powerful men's actions. How many Gentiles died without God because of this?

I would say that the God "of the Bible" is capable to saving who HE will, regardless of Paul persecuting the Church of God, or Peter clinging to long held religious traditions.

Peter knew better. They resisted the Holy Spirit. We all do. Can I get on that "inspiration" list? You're basically saying that God uses sinful men. I agree. Then define the limits of why anyone should completely trust what they say/write?

You are free to judge whoever you want to and justify your judgment. I simply posted my understanding of the Exodus all believers must partake of. I'm sure you would have railed on Moses for who he married, just as others did. I'm not going there.

What about the Gentiles that never heard?????????????

You can take up your judgement of God's imperfections when you meet Him. I believe HE is perfect and is not a respecter of persons. Every human ever born will get their fair chance at salvation. My job is to keep my own flesh under subjection, not judge God.

What about this "preservation" you're claiming that left countless people out of hearing the Scriptures? There are several problems here that Christian leaders do not accurate recognize.

That is your judgment, implying that God is unjust and unfair because He didn't allow "countless" people to hear about Him. I disagree with you.

As a pastor yourself, (I've been a pastor myself), you shouldn't use the "authoritive" argument you're using above to excuse the impact of sin among leaders. We recognize the sin of David. The sin of King Saul. Apply it equal to all men. Ourselves and the NT leadership included.

Yes, you see the sin in everyone, and it's the only thing you see, I spoke to you about this a while ago. Thankfully God saw something else in David than you do. I am perfectly willing to adopt God's Judgment of David, and King Saul.

We should rightful recognize that inerrancy is a ridiculous argument when it is used the way you're using it. We are thousands of years removed from the origins of writings you're referencing as the "Bible". They have all been affected by the sinfulness of men. We should rightfully recognize this.

You don't believe God is capable of preserving His righteousness or wrath against the unrighteousness of men through the Holy Scriptures. I believe God is perfectly capable of preserving His Truth in the Scriptures, for those who seek Him and His Righteousness.

Perhaps you are right, and God needs you to set Him straight. But I will not engage in such a judgment.

There are times Paul is wrong. There are times when James is wrong. I mean Paul even rightfully recognized that he had stolen wages from other churches to do Corinth service. He might have had no choice but the facts are clear that he did. He confessed he did.

"Inspired" confession? You might can try to make that argument. I'd like to listen to it. Please do.

I spend more time trying to check my own self, than searching for Paul's imperfection, or Davids, or Peters or His Apostles.

When you meet God, you can take it up with Him how David and Peter caused the death of so many Gentiles.