Peter, James and Barnabas were very wrong..... Why accept 1 and 2nd Peter or James?

I would say that the God "of the Bible" is capable to saving who HE will, regardless of Paul persecuting the Church of God, or Peter clinging to long held religious traditions.

Yeah. Calvinism at its core for you. I expected no different from the beginning of our conversations.

God could have raised up Children unto Abraham from stones but He didn't. God takes no pleasure in what you find pleasure in your doctrine of election.

You are free to judge whoever you want to and justify your judgment. I simply posted my understanding of the Exodus all believers must partake of. I'm sure you would have railed on Moses for who he married, just as others did. I'm not going there.

I'm GLAD that Moses married a Gentile. Perfect. I'm sure he enjoyed the life he had with her. It is great example of how murmuring against any child of Adam and Eve is silly.

You can take up your judgement of God's imperfections when you meet Him. I believe HE is perfect and is not a respecter of persons. Every human ever born will get their fair chance at salvation. My job is to keep my own flesh under subjection, not judge God.

You rightfully recognize the sin of David and Saul. I bet you've preached a sermon on it before. Stop pretending that the disciples were perfect.

1Cor 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

We can be corrected by their mistakes. It can not help you if you considered them to have been right in what they chose. If you want to debate this among your assembly, then I'll gladly participate. Or would you rather shield them from your mistakes as well?

There is no need to imply anything about me. I am my own worst critic.

That is your judgment, implying that God is unjust and unfair because He didn't allow "countless" people to hear about Him. I disagree with you.

I didn't even imply such a thing. You have unjustly claimed such nonsense about me. So kind of you. Call me before your assembly and have me judged by them. I will present a defense from the Scriptures.

1Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Yes, you see the sin in everyone, and it's the only thing you see, I spoke to you about this a while ago. Thankfully God saw something else in David than you do. I am perfectly willing to adopt God's Judgment of David, and King Saul.

God is going to judge all openly. Will you still claim such for God judging men openly?

It amazes me how "pastors" desire to shield themselves from rightfully judgements of being wrong and then when they're caught.... appeal to Grace.

I fall on the Grace of God. I'm not any better nor any worse than you are. Equals. You're not looking to have an equal. You want to rule others.
 
How do you think they felt when God raised up Paul OUTSIDE of their immediate "company"?
I think they felt sympathy for him to have been assigned this task. They also reflected on the grace God gave Paul for letting him be an apostle instead of facing judgment for his attack against the church.
 
You don't believe God is capable of preserving His righteousness or wrath against the unrighteousness of men through the Holy Scriptures. I believe God is perfectly capable of preserving His Truth in the Scriptures, for those who seek Him and His Righteousness.

Oh the times I've heard that argument from false teachers.

I believe God can do anything. Men preserve things. Everything a man touches has issues. Men wrote manuscripts. Men wrote translations.

You would blame God with error given your position. You are the one that actually blames God for the error that is obvious in various writings of men. I do not. I blame MEN. Not God.

Perhaps you are right, and God needs you to set Him straight. But I will not engage in such a judgment.

Inerrancy in a collection and translation is ridiculous. God is certainly past fault. The fault stands in the works of men.

When you falsely claim there is an edition and collection of men that comes directly and perfectly from God, you are the one blaming God with error. All you have is "theoretical perfection" that doesn't exist in realty.

When you make these claims to learned peoples, they see you as a liar. I will not be seen as a liar and try to defend God by claiming something is.... what it is not.

I know what the issues are. I don't mind admitting that there are mistakes. You know why? Because I can easily tell others that they are mistaken too. That God forgives.

It amazes me how sinful men pretend they're not sinful and try to sell some illusion that God is always with them in everything. Isn't that special.

Humility is lacking in most everything associated with mankind. Humble yourself. I try to humble myself.


I spend more time trying to check my own self, than searching for Paul's imperfection, or Davids, or Peters or His Apostles.

When you meet God, you can take it up with Him how David and Peter caused the death of so many Gentiles.

We all cause the death of those without the Gospel for those we care about.

We are the reason that others do not believe. I mourn for this. You should too.
 
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I think they felt sympathy for him to have been assigned this task. They also reflected on the grace God gave Paul for letting him be an apostle instead of facing judgment for his attack against the church.

I don't believe this at all. Paul did what none of them would do. In fact, he died because of it. He fought his own brothers in the apostles over the proper way to deal with Gentiles. Peter neglected the Grecians from the beginning. James the Greater proposed a compromise when it came to dealing with the issue decades later.

This has caused an ongoing battle between Gentiles and Jews when they should all be treating each other as equals.
 
Christians are increasingly coming to appreciate their "Jewish roots." Many have gone beyond merely acknowledging that Jesus was
a Jew, that the early disciples and apostles were Jewish, or that Christianity has come out of Judaism. They are searching out the Jewish
roots of their own faith. They are respecting and even loving the Jews. They are doing what they can to bless the Jewish people, in
recognition of Genesis 12:3, "I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse anyone who curses you; and by you all the families of the
earth will be blessed."
But there is a deeper reason for paying attention to the Jewish people, a reason that ultimately must shake the very identity of a
Christian to its core. The foundational text is Ephesians 2:11-13, which says;

Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth-called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation
on their flesh, are called the Circumcised-at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Israel. You were
foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God. But now, you who were
once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood.


So, according to this passage, what is it that God, through his Messiah Yeshua, does for human beings?
Human beings? Are you sure to use this word because Saul is not addressing or writing ABOUT human beings but he's writing about Abraham's seed who are of mixed heritage (Jew-Gentile offspring) who are Hebrew having at least one parent who was non-Hebrew in their ancestry who grew up as Greeks in a Greek culture (Hellenized.)
God has no covenant with non-Hebrews so nothing of the Hebrew history or culture means anything to them non-Hebrews. Some Hebrew children might be aware of their non-Hebrew ancestry but not necessarily all because if it is a non-Hebrew man and a Hebrew woman that remained together the child most likely would be raised influenced by the man's history and culture. If the man is Hebrew and the woman non-Hebrew who remained together the child would most likely be raised as Hebrew until each succeeding generation lost their Hebrew heritage because the next generation did not teach it, or it was lost through ignorance and indifference. Maybe some of these Samaritan-type children know parts of such family history. But how much influence would a half- or quarter or eighth-Hebrew slash non-Hebrew offspring have in a Greek culture - or Latin, since some Hebrews that went to observe the Feast of Harvest returned to Rome as born-again Jewish Christian. Same for the other locations the tongues in the upper room are identified on a map reveal.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:11–13.

Who are these "Gentiles" mentioned by Saul? Although Samaritans of Assyrian stock were called Samaritan they were still seen as Gentile by the more purist Hebrews/Jews and this was the reason why they were 'hated', because for some reason their parents "sold out" and intermarried, were raped (if woman Hebrews) concubinage or slavery who after 500 years and so many generations of offspring in that time lived in upper Samaria which under the northern kingdom of ten tribes was their capital at one time lived separate from the common Hebrews of Israel proper despite being under occupation of the Romans (and not everyone in the occupying army was from Italy as conquered people were conscripted into the Roman military.)
I think the key to their identity is in verse 13 which through the Holy Spirit corresponds to what Peter said in Acts 2:

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

And speaking of the Holy Spirit of Promise every Hebrew knew such promise was made to them (children of Israel) and never to non-Hebrew Gentiles. If you can show me through Scripture the Holy Spirit of God was promised to non-Hebrew Gentiles, I will consider changing my position, but I will tell you now, for such a promise of God and of great covenant importance you won't find such a promise which leads me to ask...what's your basis or source? It's not in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, or Prophets, so would you maintain a doctrine if not found in Scripture? And don't say "Trinity" is not in Scripture because although correct, the word is not there but the idea or concept is and can be determined through several passages which reveal itself as being a "Trinity." Besides, the idea of Trinity did not find its fullest expression until the advent of the Son. So, where in Scripture does God promise His Holy Spirit of covenant to non-covenant, non-Hebrew people?
The answer:
(1) He makes them conscience of what sin is, and through Yeshua the Messiah he offers forgiveness of sin (this is taught in the ten verses
preceding the above citation).
Then, if they are Gentiles (such as Paul is addressing here) and therefore do not already belong to his own special people, the People of God.
(2) he makes them part of the People of God.
(3) he makes them participate in his covenants.
(4) he fulfills his promises.
(5) he gives them hope in this difficult world, and finally,
(6) he makes his very self known to them.
I think you've bought into the Hellenized theology of the Hellenized Hebrew who through ignorance were left to proceed from the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple and the scattering of the Jews (Hebrews) by the Romans to attempt to maintain their newfound biblical Christianity without guidance, habitation, and presence of Hebrews/Jews that were born-again at the first (as Peter puts it in Acts 11:15 ("fell on them, as on us at the beginning.") I think your positions 1-6 need to be reconsidered since from my understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant when made between God, Abram the Hebrew and his seed, I know that no non-Hebrew can ever be born to two Hebrew parents, and this continued throughout Hebrew history for a couple thousand years until the conquest of Assyria of the northern kingdom tribes and the Babylonians of the southern kingdom tribes some 136 years later.
If they are Jews and therefore do belong to the People of God, they already have items (2) through (6) and do not need to be given
them again. I'll say it differently: Jews already have (2) through (6) and the only new thing that comes to them through Yeshua is (1).
Thus, assured forgiveness of sin is the last thing Jews get. Gentiles get forgiveness of sin first, but it is only through Yeshua connection
that Gentiles gain covenants, the promises, hope and intimacy with God. It is only because and when they have been joined to the Jews
that they get these things. Jews have them already---but without the forgiveness of sins through Yeshua's atoning death they gain
nothing thereby in the world to come.

There is a sequencing to these six truths, and the sequencing is different for Jews than for Christians. Sequencing may seem an
unimportant detail, but I submit that at this time getting it right is the most important challenge facing the Body of Messiah!

David H. Stern The Church's Biggest Challenge More than Just "Loving" the Jews
One of the issues facing the early Jewish Church right after the Feast of Harvest when the Holy Spirit of Promise arrived and applied the salvation bought by the Son to three thousand (and eleven) Jews was their ignorance for the most part of the New Covenant era they found themselves in. Sure, all these things were recorded in the Hebrew Scripture but how many of the eleven disciples or three thousand born-again Jews had copies of the Hebrew Scripture to read and study to come to understand the things taking place in Jerusalem? If anything, knowledge was spotted at best until a rabbi and Pharisee of Pharisees above many his equals who had "books" and scrolls and parchments of the Hebrew Scripture was after 14-17 years of separation and study was able through the anointing come to understand more fully what was taking place among the Jewish (Hebrew) people? When Saul finally did return to his people it was Barnabas who fetched him to pastor in Antioch (Syria) until Acts 13 the Holy Spirit instructed him and Barnabas to tour these Gentile lands in order to teach the newly minted Jewish Christians in the ways of God and the Scripture about the New Covenant era Israel found herself in. He also wrote letters. As did Peter and James and John and Judas/Jude. Mathew, Mark, Luke, and others wrote gospels and letters but not all were included into the canon in the fourth century AD. So, if you're taken in with this non-Hebrew "Christianity" I think you need to reassess exactly what actually took place in an area called Biblical history because from what I know of the Hebrew Scripture there is no covenant between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and non-Hebrew Gentiles. And understanding what Jesus said about "Scripture cannot be broken" as the final arbiter of what is biblical and what is not biblical I fall on the side of what is true, biblical Christianity and what is not.
 
Abraham nor his sons sacrificed yearly. That never happened until the order of Aaron.

Your premise is horribly flawed and based upon a shallow understanding of the evidence.
From what I know of Scripture animal sacrifice was taught by God to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:21 and later the kids got involved and practiced gratitude and worship of the LORD in Genesis 4:4.

The next occurrence is with Noah and I'm sure this continued to Shem on throughout those of godly heritage and obedience. Abraham made altars as did Isaac and Jacob and it may have continued when the Hebrews (Jacob plus 69) family members moved to Goshen, Egypt. It could have continued even while in bondage but not every slave owned animals. I would think the Egyptians confiscated their loot.

Keep in mind Moses was from the tribe of Levi as was Aaron his bro. Moses built an altar and offered sacrifice to God in Exodus 24:4-8. God made it corporate with a future purpose in sight and Jesus Christ coming as lamb of God to finally and eternally atone for the sins of God's covenant people. It's a thread woven from the Garden to Jesus Christ in Scripture. You should follow it.
 
Human beings? Are you sure to use this word because Saul is not addressing or writing ABOUT human beings but he's writing about Abraham's seed who are of mixed heritage (Jew-Gentile offspring) who are Hebrew having at least one parent who was non-Hebrew in their ancestry who grew up as Greeks in a Greek culture (Hellenized.)
God has no covenant with non-Hebrews so nothing of the Hebrew history or culture means anything to them non-Hebrews. Some Hebrew children might be aware of their non-Hebrew ancestry but not necessarily all because if it is a non-Hebrew man and a Hebrew woman that remained together the child most likely would be raised influenced by the man's history and culture. If the man is Hebrew and the woman non-Hebrew who remained together the child would most likely be raised as Hebrew until each succeeding generation lost their Hebrew heritage because the next generation did not teach it, or it was lost through ignorance and indifference. Maybe some of these Samaritan-type children know parts of such family history. But how much influence would a half- or quarter or eighth-Hebrew slash non-Hebrew offspring have in a Greek culture - or Latin, since some Hebrews that went to observe the Feast of Harvest returned to Rome as born-again Jewish Christian. Same for the other locations the tongues in the upper room are identified on a map reveal.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:11–13.

Who are these "Gentiles" mentioned by Saul? Although Samaritans of Assyrian stock were called Samaritan they were still seen as Gentile by the more purist Hebrews/Jews and this was the reason why they were 'hated', because for some reason their parents "sold out" and intermarried, were raped (if woman Hebrews) concubinage or slavery who after 500 years and so many generations of offspring in that time lived in upper Samaria which under the northern kingdom of ten tribes was their capital at one time lived separate from the common Hebrews of Israel proper despite being under occupation of the Romans (and not everyone in the occupying army was from Italy as conquered people were conscripted into the Roman military.)
I think the key to their identity is in verse 13 which through the Holy Spirit corresponds to what Peter said in Acts 2:

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

And speaking of the Holy Spirit of Promise every Hebrew knew such promise was made to them (children of Israel) and never to non-Hebrew Gentiles. If you can show me through Scripture the Holy Spirit of God was promised to non-Hebrew Gentiles, I will consider changing my position, but I will tell you now, for such a promise of God and of great covenant importance you won't find such a promise which leads me to ask...what's your basis or source? It's not in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, or Prophets, so would you maintain a doctrine if not found in Scripture? And don't say "Trinity" is not in Scripture because although correct, the word is not there but the idea or concept is and can be determined through several passages which reveal itself as being a "Trinity." Besides, the idea of Trinity did not find its fullest expression until the advent of the Son. So, where in Scripture does God promise His Holy Spirit of covenant to non-covenant, non-Hebrew people?

I think you've bought into the Hellenized theology of the Hellenized Hebrew who through ignorance were left to proceed from the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple and the scattering of the Jews (Hebrews) by the Romans to attempt to maintain their newfound biblical Christianity without guidance, habitation, and presence of Hebrews/Jews that were born-again at the first (as Peter puts it in Acts 11:15 ("fell on them, as on us at the beginning.") I think your positions 1-6 need to be reconsidered since from my understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant when made between God, Abram the Hebrew and his seed, I know that no non-Hebrew can ever be born to two Hebrew parents, and this continued throughout Hebrew history for a couple thousand years until the conquest of Assyria of the northern kingdom tribes and the Babylonians of the southern kingdom tribes some 136 years later.

One of the issues facing the early Jewish Church right after the Feast of Harvest when the Holy Spirit of Promise arrived and applied the salvation bought by the Son to three thousand (and eleven) Jews was their ignorance for the most part of the New Covenant era they found themselves in. Sure, all these things were recorded in the Hebrew Scripture but how many of the eleven disciples or three thousand born-again Jews had copies of the Hebrew Scripture to read and study to come to understand the things taking place in Jerusalem? If anything, knowledge was spotted at best until a rabbi and Pharisee of Pharisees above many his equals who had "books" and scrolls and parchments of the Hebrew Scripture was after 14-17 years of separation and study was able through the anointing come to understand more fully what was taking place among the Jewish (Hebrew) people? When Saul finally did return to his people it was Barnabas who fetched him to pastor in Antioch (Syria) until Acts 13 the Holy Spirit instructed him and Barnabas to tour these Gentile lands in order to teach the newly minted Jewish Christians in the ways of God and the Scripture about the New Covenant era Israel found herself in. He also wrote letters. As did Peter and James and John and Judas/Jude. Mathew, Mark, Luke, and others wrote gospels and letters but not all were included into the canon in the fourth century AD. So, if you're taken in with this non-Hebrew "Christianity" I think you need to reassess exactly what actually took place in an area called Biblical history because from what I know of the Hebrew Scripture there is no covenant between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and non-Hebrew Gentiles. And understanding what Jesus said about "Scripture cannot be broken" as the final arbiter of what is biblical and what is not biblical I fall on the side of what is true, biblical Christianity and what is not.
Your distortion, misinformation and disinformation is appalling.
 
From what I know of Scripture animal sacrifice was taught by God to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:21 and later the kids got involved and practiced gratitude and worship of the LORD in Genesis 4:4.

The next occurrence is with Noah and I'm sure this continued to Shem on throughout those of godly heritage and obedience. Abraham made altars as did Isaac and Jacob and it may have continued when the Hebrews (Jacob plus 69) family members moved to Goshen, Egypt. It could have continued even while in bondage but not every slave owned animals. I would think the Egyptians confiscated their loot.

Keep in mind Moses was from the tribe of Levi as was Aaron his bro. Moses built an altar and offered sacrifice to God in Exodus 24:4-8. God made it corporate with a future purpose in sight and Jesus Christ coming as lamb of God to finally and eternally atone for the sins of God's covenant people. It's a thread woven from the Garden to Jesus Christ in Scripture. You should follow it.

Moses spent 40 years in exile. No reason to believe he sacrificed anything.

The point being in my response, there is no reason to believe that the day of Atonement happened every year for many "Saints of God".
 
I don't believe this at all. Paul did what none of them would do. In fact, he died because of it. He fought his own brothers in the apostles over the proper way to deal with Gentiles. Peter neglected the Grecians from the beginning. James the Greater proposed a compromise when it came to dealing with the issue decades later.

This has caused an ongoing battle between Gentiles and Jews when they should all be treating each other as equals.
We won't find much agreement on this topic. You are following a line of thought maybe popular in the early 1900s of a division of Jewish and gentile factions. I do not see Paul nor Luke representing that anywhere.
 
Moses spent 40 years in exile. No reason to believe he sacrificed anything.

The point being in my response, there is no reason to believe that the day of Atonement happened every year for many "Saints of God".
There was a lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
It took place in the Heavenly Tabernacle.
God accepted it and now all has been said and done and we are all with God.
imagesCAFQ4PW6.jpg
Mission accomplished.
 
There was a lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
It took place in the Heavenly Tabernacle.
God accepted it and now all has been said and done and we are all with God.
View attachment 828
Mission accomplished.

I believe that but you said what you said about Atonement yearly in the lives of the Jews. This not true of Abraham, Moses and others. Just admit it and move on. Change or not. You should change your argument.
 
We won't find much agreement on this topic. You are following a line of thought maybe popular in the early 1900s of a division of Jewish and gentile factions. I do not see Paul nor Luke representing that anywhere.

I've never studied anyone that held this belief. I believe it because the Scriptures teach it.

Lets do it anyway. I don't mind it when someone chastens me. I'm looking for where I'm wrong.

Did Peter help the Grecians? He helped the Jews. He only stopped helping them when the Grecians rightfully recognized that he was neglecting them.

Would you agree with this statement?
 
I've never studied anyone that held this belief. I believe it because the Scriptures teach it.

Lets do it anyway. I don't mind it when someone chastens me. I'm looking for where I'm wrong.

Did Peter help the Grecians? He helped the Jews. He only stopped helping them when the Grecians rightfully recognized that he was neglecting them.

Would you agree with this statement?
No. certainly Peter is not omniscient. Nor do I see Peter at the center of this situation in Acts 6. It is interesting the parties causing turmoil in Judea though. We see in Acts 9 that the Hellenists are as opposed to Paul as the Hebrews., even more so.
 
No. certainly Peter is not omniscient. Nor do I see Peter at the center of this situation in Acts 6. It is interesting the parties causing turmoil in Judea though. We see in Acts 9 that the Hellenists are as opposed to Paul as the Hebrews., even more so.

It is a mankind issue not a nationality/cultural issue. There are good and bad men everywhere of every nationality. One is not superior to the other.

I believe our founding documents. "All men are created equal". That doesn't equal = equal outcomes.
 
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