Faith itself is the gift of God to us though
Calvinism is Gospel !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
civic
Active Member
No salvation is the gift and faith is the requirement of man.
No, the gift is salvation, and it is granted to all who believe in Christ.
Au contraire, there are many.
There is no such thing as unconditional election to salvation
Rom 10:9–10that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Eph 2:8–9For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Rom 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
John 5:24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Mark 16:16He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Acts 4:12And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
John 6:47Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
John 3:36He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
The Spirit makes alive those who believe. That is
faith precedes regeneration, for regeneration requires the indwelling of the Spirit
John 7:38–39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Eph 1:13–14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
It is rather plain
John 1:12–13But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Those who believe become children of God that is born of God, i.e., regenerated.
You just do not deal with them.
brightfame52
Active Member
Theres no gospel w/o teaching unconditional election, that's what Grace is all about, the remnant according to the election of grace, not with conditions or works
@civic @JesusFan
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
This is another gospel, pure and simple........another gospel.
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
So, you left the truth, not that Calvinism is the truth, but those who hold to Calvinism have truth, those who fight against unconditional election by grace alone, are enemies to the truth, at least, this truth.
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Sorry but there are no verses that teach unconditional salvation
Au contraire, there are many.
There is no such thing as unconditional election to salvation
Rom 10:9–10that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Eph 2:8–9For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Rom 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
John 5:24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Mark 16:16He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Acts 4:12And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
John 6:47Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
John 3:36He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
The Spirit makes alive those who believe. That is
faith precedes regeneration, for regeneration requires the indwelling of the Spirit
John 7:38–39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Eph 1:13–14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
It is rather plain
John 1:12–13But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Those who believe become children of God that is born of God, i.e., regenerated.
You just do not deal with them, and your theology is exposed as unconcerned about the whole context of scripture.
brightfame52
Active Member
Amen, its the New Man that believes, the old man is a unbeliever naturally and at enmity against God, it doesnt change even after conversion
Yes and what nobody ever mentions is that Faith in Eph 2:8 has the definite article, so its not the sinners Faith, nothing of Salvation by grace through the Faith is of ourselves, its all of Grace
Exactly
Agreed
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the only Salvation there is, by Grace which is unconditional election of grace Rom 11:5-6
brightfame52
Active Member
I will share this with you and anyone else interested. Faith in Salvation isnt of ourselves, its generated in us by Jesus Christ, for we are His Spiritual seed. Now Faith in Eph 2:8 has the definite article, the Faith. Now looking at Heb 12:2
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
I looked in the original and again Faith here also has the defnite article
ἀφορῶντες εἰς τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν Ἰησοῦν ὃς ἀντὶ τῆς προκειμένης αὐτῷ χαρᾶς ὑπέμεινεν σταυρὸν αἰσχύνης καταφρονήσας ἐν δεξιᾷ τε τοῦ θρόνου τοῦ θεοῦ εκάθισεν
Now here is an interesting note on the word author:
So the Faith in Eph 2:8 is the Faith Christ who saved us created the faith in us.
@brightfame52
I just received a call and must leave, be back later.
I fully understand the truth of the gospel, as I presented that truth above. Christ did not create faith in us, what the Spirit of God did, based upon what Christ did for his people, was that "he created a new man within us", by his power and promises of grace to us through Christ, that has power to believe, and understand, etc. Yet, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, also another truth of the gospel. All of God's elect has the power to believe, yet all do so on different levels based upon their love of the scriptures and the work they put into knowing the truth. etc.
I just received a call and must leave, be back later.
civic
Active Member
projecting and total conjecture.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows. See also John 5:24;40
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in Acts 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
The Biblical Order Salutis
Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
continued about regeneration and the false teaching of calvinism
The new birth and the gospel.
Born of Water John 3
John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.
The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.
The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
So lets go through this point by point.
1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.
There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.
Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :
1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom
summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)
Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
The new birth happens after the hearing and believing the gospel message which is the word of God.
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
John 3 the context, illustrations, text from the OT that he would be familiar with which Jesus points to for Nicodemus.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ( notice belief precedes life )
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ( notice once again belief comes before life)17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Conclusion: Faith/Belief precedes life. John opens his gospel with belief preceding life ( John 1:12-13 and ends the gospel with the same John 20:31 ) Jesus teaches the same in John 3. Therefor Jesus and the Apostles refuted the doctrines of grace known as tulip or calvinism. Jesus taught provisional atonement not limited.
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.
hope this helps !!!
The new birth and the gospel.
Born of Water John 3
John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.
The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.
The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
So lets go through this point by point.
1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.
There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.
Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :
1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom
summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)
Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
The new birth happens after the hearing and believing the gospel message which is the word of God.
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
John 3 the context, illustrations, text from the OT that he would be familiar with which Jesus points to for Nicodemus.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ( notice belief precedes life )
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ( notice once again belief comes before life)17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Conclusion: Faith/Belief precedes life. John opens his gospel with belief preceding life ( John 1:12-13 and ends the gospel with the same John 20:31 ) Jesus teaches the same in John 3. Therefor Jesus and the Apostles refuted the doctrines of grace known as tulip or calvinism. Jesus taught provisional atonement not limited.
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
continued:
No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time
Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
conclusion: calvinism has it all wrong. belief precedes life-the new birth as demonstrated in my other posts. the bible speaks with one voice in unity which calvinism contradicts and confuses its followers.
hope this helps !!!
No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time
Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
conclusion: calvinism has it all wrong. belief precedes life-the new birth as demonstrated in my other posts. the bible speaks with one voice in unity which calvinism contradicts and confuses its followers.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe the Spirit and Christ work as one in this matter. Thats why when He was exalted to the Throne the Father gave Him the Spirit as a reward Acts 2 33
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear
The Spirit gives life to the redeemed seed of Christ. Its no difference, sometimes its said Christ quickens 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
Jn 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Sounds like the same thing to me, the terminology has a little variation. The Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you
Faith is already there from the quickening, but the word of God calls it into action
I agree with this, however its up to God what degree of fruitfulness we have Matt 13
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
civic
Active Member
As I have demonstrated calvinism is wrong about the gospel and tulip. This intelligent calvinist scholar below understands how tulip stands of falls. I have proven it wrong severl times today.
As the astute Theologian and Scholar , the Calvinist Lorraine Boettner said: Prove one point in tulip wrong and it all collapses
Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,
"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."
And faith is the only thing by which man is saved. The gospel message must be believed. They were condemning Jesus for His works and He lets them know its His works which are the evidence He is from God- and so our faith is also evidence we are from God. That's the only work which grants eternal life that we believe.
I like how this calvinist barnes says it best
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.
hope this helps !!!
As the astute Theologian and Scholar , the Calvinist Lorraine Boettner said: Prove one point in tulip wrong and it all collapses
Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,
"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."
And faith is the only thing by which man is saved. The gospel message must be believed. They were condemning Jesus for His works and He lets them know its His works which are the evidence He is from God- and so our faith is also evidence we are from God. That's the only work which grants eternal life that we believe.
I like how this calvinist barnes says it best
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.
hope this helps !!!
You failed to address the many verses that are contrary to your belief
Sorry but there are no verses that teach unconditional salvation
Au contraire, there are many that show there is no such thing as unconditional election to salvation
Rom 10:9–10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Eph 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
The Spirit makes alive those who believe. That is
Faith precedes regeneration, for regeneration requires the indwelling of the Spirit
John 7:38–39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Eph 1:13–14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
It is rather plain
John 1:12–13But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Those who believe become children of God that is born of God, i.e., regenerated.
You just do not deal with them, and your theology is exposed as unconcerned about the whole context of scripture.
civic
Active Member
ditto
Yet he simply ignores much scripture that shows his theology as defective.
brightfame52
Active Member
They are addressed with Rom 11:5-6. Thats unconditional election, A Gospel of Gods Grace Truth
