Amen
Calvinism is Gospel !
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civic
Active Member
I really don't care what anyones idea of salvation is, all I was doing was going to the SOURCE HIMSELF- the One and Only Savior and see what He said about Salvation. Jesus only used the word once which I provided with Zaccheus. He used a derivative to save several times which I alse references with the blind, the issue of blood, raising the dead, cleansing the leper, the withered hand- in each and every case it was a totoal and complete of restoration from one state of being to another state. So when Jesus saves a person they go from one state of being lost to the opposite state of being found/saved. They hac=ve been delivered from sin, being lost, and are in a new relationship with their Savior having a restored relationship with their Creator who delivered them from darkness into His marvelous Light. Children of light, walking in the light no more in darkness and a state of sin delivered form its domain.
The above describes the song Amazing Grace now that I think about it.
If the above does not satisfy your demands for the meaning of being saved, salvation I'm at a complete loss.
hope this helps !!!
I think the song "Rock Of Ages" has a better description.The above describes the song Amazing Grace now that I think about it.
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath and make me pure.
The line, "Be of sin the double cure", says a lot about what salvation is.
civic
Active Member
I was think with Amazing Grace the bible verse which I qouted with Jesus to Zaccheaus. He came to seek and save the lost. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see. He healed the sight of the blind man, found lost Zacchaeus and saved him.
The examples I provided straight from Jesus teaching on salvation.
You are getting close to the real issue that I am referring to. Was lost, now found. Was blind, now see. First, we must identify the problem from which one must be saved. And what you presented there is not really the literal problem; but simply alludes to it or emblematically refers to it. The problem is sin. And even more directed, the problem that results to the spirit of a man, not the body, the flesh and blood, of a man. We are not saved from any of the physical, bodily effects that might result from sin; rather we are saved from the spiritual effects that result from sin.I was think with Amazing Grace the bible verse which I qouted with Jesus to Zaccheaus. He came to seek and save the lost. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see. He healed the sight of the blind man, found lost Zacchaeus and saved him.
The examples I provided straight from Jesus teaching on salvation.
The phrase in the song, "The Rocks Of Ages", Be of sin, the double cure, is a plea to be a double cure to a double problem, a double problem that result from sin. What effects do a person's sins have on the sinner? What happens to the person who sins against God? What problems does the sinner face as the result of his sins?
In the hymn the “double trouble” is called the guilt and power of sin, or in its other version wrath and impurity. In other words, our sins make us guilty; they put us in a wrong relationship with God and his law, and bring us under his wrath. This is a legal problem. At the same time our sins corrupt our natures and make us spiritually sick and depraved. This is a problem with our spiritual health. The reality of personal guilt is one of the most difficult things for sinful man to admit. The unredeemed sinner has the constant tendency to deny his guilt and his personal responsibility for his sins. The ancient excuse “the devil made me do it,” whether invoked seriously (Gen 3:13) or flippantly, is an example of the continuing desire to blame someone else for our evil deeds (Gen 3:12). Another common excuse is “I’m only human,” as if finitude and/or free will makes sin inevitable rather than simply possible.
If we accept the biblical worldview, however, we cannot avoid the concept and reality of personal guilt with respect to sin. The Bible clearly teaches the existence of a Creator-God who has given his human creatures laws to obey and the free will to do so or not. Given these truths, we must affirm that sin makes us guilty.
Guilt is a concept that has meaning only in the context of law. It is a state that is brought about by a conscious violation of the law and that results in liability to punishment. When one breaks a law of God (which is the essence of sin, 1 John 3:4), he becomes guilty in the sense that he now stands in a wrong relationship with that law and is liable to the penalty prescribed by it. Because such breaking of the law is a matter of the sinner’s personal, free-will choice, he is fully responsible for his deeds and justly subject to the punishment they deserve.
As a wrong relationship to the law of God, guilt is not an inward, subjective condition. Rather, it is an external, objective state. In other words we must not confuse guilt with guilt feelings. A hardened sinner may have no guilt feelings whatsoever, and at the same time be burdened with intense guilt before the divine Lawgiver and Judge. Scripture clearly teaches the concept of guilt. James 2:10 says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” The word used here is enochos, which is a technical legal term meaning “guilty, subject to or liable to penalty.” This term is used four times in Matt 5:21-22, e.g., “Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court.” Romans 3:19 declares that the whole sinful world is “guilty before God” (KJV). The Greek word is hypodikos, which means “liable to judgment or punishment, worthy of punishment, answerable, accountable.” The NASB and NIV have “accountable to God” in this verse; but this translation is too weak to capture the full meaning of the term, since some connotations of “accountable” do not specify whether a person is guilty or not, but simply imply that he must give account for his actions, good or bad. But hypodikos refers to someone who has done something wrong and has been brought before the court to answer for it.
The second part of the “double trouble” caused by sin is that it gives the sinner a sinful nature. That is, sin affects not only our objective relationship with God and his law; it also affects us subjectively and personally, in our very being. It brings about a weakness of the soul, making it harder to resist temptation. The sinner’s spirit is corrupted, diseased, and depraved. The sinner is spiritually sick and evil in his inner nature; he has a sinful heart. Many have denied the reality of spiritual depravity for various reasons. Some simply declare that sinfulness applies only to actions and not to persons as such.
It has been said, “One of the most difficult lessons for us to learn is that sin is not only what we do, but also what we are. Sin, in the form of corruption, is in our very nature”. Some deny the reality of spiritual depravity because they think of it only as something that would be derived from Adam as part of an original-sin package (as in semi-Pelagianism or Augustinianism). It is not necessary, however, to think of the sinful nature as an inborn result of Adam’s sin. I do not personally regard it as such, in view of the biblical teaching that original grace has negated all such potential consequences of Adam’s sin (I have spoken to this previously and won't repeat it here). Since this is the case, and since the Bible affirms that sinners are evil and sinful, we must thus infer that this inward depravity is something we acquire as the result of our own sin. I personally deny that Adam’s sin ever touched or in any way affected the spirit of one of his descendants. Our own sin corrupts our spirits.” Concerning Adam’s descendants, spiritually they die for their own sins, and by these only are they spiritually depraved. Still others deny the reality of spiritual depravity because they fail to understand the difference between partial depravity and total depravity. They assume that any view of spiritual corruption is equivalent to total corruption. This is not the case, however. I am here stating that the sinner’s spiritual nature is depraved as a result of his own sins, but that this depravity is only partial and not total.
So then, salvation is God's statement of our acceptance by Him as promised by Him for inclusion in His kingdom through
freeing us from our guilt and giving us the antidote for our sin-sick spiritual health. It is God's statement that He has saved us from the spiritual effects of our sin.
I will add here that the spiritual effects of our sin that I have described above can be taken as the meaning of "dead in trespasses and sins" as found in passages such as Ephesians 2:1.
I apologize for the too-long length of the post.
Now then, how we can obtain this double cure is "a whole nother question".
Chosen for purpose. Not chosen for salvation.
If our sin nature didn’t come from Adam, then who did it come from?
Here is my question to you.
Do you confess your sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness?
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:9-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Toplady A brother of the Calvinistic teaching!
dwight92070
Active Member
It's very possible that our "sin nature" (not a Biblical term but it does seem to describe our situation) came when we ourselves committed our first sin. "and so death spread to all men because all sinned" Romans 5:12
Notice is DOES NOT say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned. but because WE SINNED.
When we reach the age of accountability (another term not found in the Bible, but the concept does appear to be there), which appears to be a different age for each person - from that moment on, we are held accountable for our sins. Prior to that, it appears, we were not accountable to God for our sins, even though Christ died for those sins too. This is why, in my opinion, infants and most children are considered innocent before God, until they reach that age of accountability.
@dwight92070
1) sinful flesh, or nature is a biblical term:
Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
2) Our sinful nature (the flesh) is so since we all sinned in Adam, legally before God, and in Adam we all died spiritually speaking, and will die the second death unless one is born of God. The second death is destruction in the lake of fire, which will be THIS EARTH when it will be destroyed with fervent heat after The Great White Throne Judgement.
Adam and Eve were created after God's image, which consist in righteousness, knowledge, wisdom, and understandings spiritually speaking. the very second they sinned that image was LOST and they took on the image of the devil himself, and all of Adam posterity are born after his fallen image.
This does not mean that Seth was born with jet black hair and olive skin and brown eyes like his father, etc. He was born with a sinful nature, that was void of God's image, since the devil murdered our first parents, stole from Adam God's image ~ the devil was a murderer, liar and thief from the beginning of time.
I have nineteen grandchildren and everyone of them were born in sin, and is so evidence (of course we have never doubted God testimony to this truth) as soon as they begin to develop and grown, we had to begin as soon as they came forth from the womb, to teach them how to love their cousins, share their toys, think of others before yourself, and be truthful, and trust me, it was work, much work, in some ways there was succeed, in many ways no success! They were nothing more than a chip off the old block of dear old Papa.
You said: "so death spread to all men because all sinned" Romans 5:12"
IN ADAM this was so.
We just had a great grandson born back in July, he will be nothing more than what is father is now, a sinner with a sinful nature, he was not born sinless. It will not take his parents very long to see him displaying that sinful flesh when they leave the room to put him down for a nap, he's going to let them have a few acts of his sinful flesh to show them that not acceptable with him. Of course that's the best time to win those battles, to make life easier for them later on.
I read where one preacher in past, maybe two to three hundred years ago said something like this: "Be thankful they are born so little and weak at the first, or else they just might kill you when the first time you said no to them."
Those sinful infants and sucking in just a matter of time will be just like the older Amalekites, all they need is TIME. Question for anyone.... "why are infants more important than let's say a fifteen years old youth? Or, a twenty five more than a fifty five?"
@dwight92070 I'm not doing this post to put you down in way whatsoever, but just taking time and energy (which I do not have much at the moment, been sick since February and can not get over the hump) to help another brother to be more perfect in the truth.
Greetings @dwight92070, Man is born with a sinful nature, it does not come when we sinned, because we sinned in Adam.
1) sinful flesh, or nature is a biblical term:
Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”2) Our sinful nature (the flesh) is so since we all sinned in Adam, legally before God, and in Adam we all died spiritually speaking, and will die the second death unless one is born of God. The second death is destruction in the lake of fire, which will be THIS EARTH when it will be destroyed with fervent heat after The Great White Throne Judgement.
Adam and Eve were created after God's image, which consist in righteousness, knowledge, wisdom, and understandings spiritually speaking. the very second they sinned that image was LOST and they took on the image of the devil himself, and all of Adam posterity are born after his fallen image.
Genesis 5:3
“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:”This does not mean that Seth was born with jet black hair and olive skin and brown eyes like his father, etc. He was born with a sinful nature, that was void of God's image, since the devil murdered our first parents, stole from Adam God's image ~ the devil was a murderer, liar and thief from the beginning of time.
John 8:44
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”I have nineteen grandchildren and everyone of them were born in sin, and is so evidence (of course we have never doubted God testimony to this truth) as soon as they begin to develop and grown, we had to begin as soon as they came forth from the womb, to teach them how to love their cousins, share their toys, think of others before yourself, and be truthful, and trust me, it was work, much work, in some ways there was succeed, in many ways no success! They were nothing more than a chip off the old block of dear old Papa.
Psalms 51:5
“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”Job 14:4
“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.”No question about our sinful nature passed down from Adam to us.
You said: "so death spread to all men because all sinned" Romans 5:12"
IN ADAM this was so.
1st Corinthians 15:22
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”We just had a great grandson born back in July, he will be nothing more than what is father is now, a sinner with a sinful nature, he was not born sinless. It will not take his parents very long to see him displaying that sinful flesh when they leave the room to put him down for a nap, he's going to let them have a few acts of his sinful flesh to show them that not acceptable with him. Of course that's the best time to win those battles, to make life easier for them later on.
I read where one preacher in past, maybe two to three hundred years ago said something like this: "Be thankful they are born so little and weak at the first, or else they just might kill you when the first time you said no to them."
Romans 5:12-14; 1st Corinthians 15:22, is clear along with other scriptures, if you need more.
@dwight92070 no such doctrine taught in the word of God, because we ALL were accountable IN ADAM. Adam was a perfect representative for us before God's law, since he had no sinful flesh to deal with as we all do from our birth. I may start a thread on this very subject today, and let us search the scriptures to see exactly what God has to say concerning this false teaching. Any man who does not understand the two Adam's and their respective role in history of this world do not truly grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ fully as they should ~ impossible.
@dwight92070 yours nor mine opinions matter, what saith the word of God is where truth is found. If children were so innocent, why did God commanded Israel to destroy them, when they destroyed their enemies? Do you think no children died in the flood?
1 Samuel 15:3
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.”Those sinful infants and sucking in just a matter of time will be just like the older Amalekites, all they need is TIME. Question for anyone.... "why are infants more important than let's say a fifteen years old youth? Or, a twenty five more than a fifty five?"
@dwight92070 I'm not doing this post to put you down in way whatsoever, but just taking time and energy (which I do not have much at the moment, been sick since February and can not get over the hump) to help another brother to be more perfect in the truth.
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The sin nature is really nothing more than the free will to choose to obey or disobey God's law. Our free will is an inherent feature of the creation of human beings.
We probably should discuss 1 John 1:9-10. I believe it is grossly misunderstood. We were cleansed from all unrighteousness when we were Justified, i.e., saved. To be justified is to be declared righteous. We were forgiven when we believed, repented and were baptized for the forgiveness of our sins and were given the gift of the Holy Spirit as Peter declared at the very first sermon at that first Pentecost (Acts 2:38). Being forgiven of our sins is a state of being as Christians. That is who we are.
Read the passage from which it comes
Matthew 22:1–14 (LEB) — 1 And continuing, Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man—a king—who gave a wedding celebration for his son. 3 And he sent his slaves to summon those who had been invited to the wedding celebration, and they did not want to come. 4 Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fattened cattle have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding celebration!” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went away—this one to his own field, that one to his business. 6 And the others, seizing his slaves, mistreated them and killed them. 7 And the king was angry and sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding celebration is ready, but those who had been invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore, go out to the places where the roads exit the city and invite to the wedding celebration as many people as you find.’ 10 And those slaves went out into the roads and gathered everyone whom they found, both evil and good, and the wedding celebration was filled with dinner guests. 11 But when the king came in to see the dinner guests, he saw a man there not dressed in wedding clothes. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here, not having wedding clothes?’ But he could say nothing. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Tie him up hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!’ 14 For many are called but few are chosen.”
Note there is no reference to being unconditionally chosen if perhaps it was thought the verse was quoted supporting such an idea.
Prior to the age of accountability, the child committed no sin. Sin is lawlessness, i.e., disobeying God's law. Where there is no law, there is no sin. There is no law for the very young child or the one too limited in mental ability to know and understand the law.
The bible does not claim the sin of Adam has been tranfered to us
Rather vthe bible teaches the son is not guilty o
Romans 5:12–14 (NASB95) — 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NASB95) — 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Neither verse states Adam's sin is transferred over to us.
And many verses state the son is not guilty of the father's sin
Ezekiel 18:20 (LEB) — 20 The person, the one sinning, will die. A son shall not bear the guilt of the father, and a father shall not bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him; the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
Ezekiel 18:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 2 “What do you mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers, they ate unripe fruit, and the teeth of the child became blunt.’ 3 As I live, declares the Lord Yahweh, it will surely not any longer be appropriate for you to quote this proverb in Israel! 4 Look! All lives are mine. The lives of father and son alike are mine. The person sinning will die.
2 Kings 14:6 (LEB) — 6 But the sons of the killers he did not kill, as it is written in the scroll of the law of Moses which Yahweh had commanded, saying, “Fathers should not be killed because of children, and children should not be killed because of fathers; but a man should die because of his own sin.”
Deuteronomy 24:16 (LEB) — 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, and children shall not be put to death because of their fathers; each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
2 Chronicles 25:4 (LEB) — 4 But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the law, in the scroll of Moses, where Yahweh commanded, saying, “Fathers shall not be put to death on account of the sons, and the sons shall not be put to death on account of the fathers, but each shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Jeremiah 31:29–30 (LEB) — 29 “In those days they will say no longer, ‘Parents have eaten unripe fruit, and the teeth of the children are set on edge.’ 30 But each will die because of his iniquity, everyone who eats the unripe fruit, their teeth will be set on edge.
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