civic
Active Member
Tulip is not the gospel you are conflating them
Calvinism is Gospel !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
If they were saved, then Christ wouldn't have needed to die for them DUH!!!
Yep, the gospel is good news. Calvinism is bad news for most, as they have been predetermined reprobates.
brightfame52
Active Member
Lol Calvinism/Tulip are truths that comprehend the Gospel of Gods Grace. You cant even believe in Grace Salvation apart from believing in the election of grace, a remnant Rom 11:5-7
@TomL @civic @JLB @ProDeo @Jim @Quintus5
That being said, it is impossible to preach the gospel of free justification through Christ's obedience, with out the doctrine of election of grace being the main theme of that gospel, impossible. For therein, that is, in gospel is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith to them that are the called of God.
The truth of the gospel is neither about Calvinism, or Armenianism, for both have their errors, just one has so much more. My friend who have known for around forty years, preach this back twenty years ago, or so: https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2006/calvinism-arminianism-and-the-truth/ We have worshipped together for years and have been in each others homes many times over.
That being said, it is impossible to preach the gospel of free justification through Christ's obedience, with out the doctrine of election of grace being the main theme of that gospel, impossible. For therein, that is, in gospel is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith to them that are the called of God.
The majority of the men of the earth unconditionally predestined to the fire is not good news.
Many are called
Matthew 22:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
but few chosen
Unconditional election/reprobation is not the gospel
@TomL
So, for many be called; that is, externally, under the preaching of the Gospel, as the Jews in general were, by Christ and his apostles, and many since then; but few chosen; that is, in Christ from all eternity, both to grace and glory, per Ist Corinthians 1:24-31
I do not think we need to labor very much with Matthew 22:14, since we do have 1st Corinthians one that would demand we put a biblical sense upon Matthew 22:14 that would flow with Paul's teaching to the church at Corinth. For there Paul makes it very clear, that not many, wise, mighty, and noble are called, or chosen to be called in time, which is all the same.
1st Corinthians 1:26
“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:”So, for many be called; that is, externally, under the preaching of the Gospel, as the Jews in general were, by Christ and his apostles, and many since then; but few chosen; that is, in Christ from all eternity, both to grace and glory, per Ist Corinthians 1:24-31
@civic
No problem for me to say the Tulip is not the gospel, but, the doctrine of free justification through Christ's faith and obedience acting as our surety is the gospel, at least the sum thereof.
What is the gospel? A system of works to be done, or the good news that Christ as our surety has fulfilled the law of God in our place, and has redeemed us from the curse of the law, by being made a curse for God's elect?
No problem for me to say the Tulip is not the gospel, but, the doctrine of free justification through Christ's faith and obedience acting as our surety is the gospel, at least the sum thereof.
1 Corinthians 1:20–31 (KJV 1900) — 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Nothing there supports unconditional election from before the creation of the earth.
Romans 1:16–17 (LEB) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For the righteousness of God is revealed in it from faith to faith, just as it is written, “But the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
1 Corinthians 15:1–8 (LEB) — 1 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose. 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve, 6 then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, the majority of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all, as it were to one born at the wrong time, he appeared also to me.
Good news of Christianity
The Gospel is the good news of Christianity, derived from the Greek word "euangelion." It encompasses the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, offering salvation to all who believe. The Gospel represents the totality of God's saving truth communicated to humanity through Jesus and the Scriptures. It emphasizes God's love for the world, as expressed in John 3:16, where it states that God gave His only Son for our salvation. Overall, the Gospel is a transformative message that has been central to Christian faith for over two thousand years.
Nothing is stated about an unconditional election to salvation from eternity.
1 Corinthians 1:17–2:5 (KJV 1900) — 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Paul was called to preach the gospel in power and demonstration that those who believe would be saved.
@TomL
You are quoting scriptures randomly without giving any sense to them, truly means very little, and proves not a thing in support of what you believe. We understand the sense of Romans 1:16,17 and 1st Corinthians 1:21, etc.
Very simple, the gospel is the power of God ONLY to those that believe, to ALL others it is foolishness. What's so hard about believing this truth? Well, it is hard when men do not understand what they are saying and neither can they affirm the same with the scriptures! The gospel is the means of our practical salvation of coming to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Legally, we were saved from our sins when Christ died and was risen from the dead. We are saved vitally when quickened to life by the Spirit of God. We yet shall be saved from the presence of sin after the resurrection, and the final judgment in that day.
Greetings Tom,
You are quoting scriptures randomly without giving any sense to them, truly means very little, and proves not a thing in support of what you believe. We understand the sense of Romans 1:16,17 and 1st Corinthians 1:21, etc.
Romans 1:16
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”1 Corinthians 1:21
“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”Very simple, the gospel is the power of God ONLY to those that believe, to ALL others it is foolishness. What's so hard about believing this truth? Well, it is hard when men do not understand what they are saying and neither can they affirm the same with the scriptures! The gospel is the means of our practical salvation of coming to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Legally, we were saved from our sins when Christ died and was risen from the dead. We are saved vitally when quickened to life by the Spirit of God. We yet shall be saved from the presence of sin after the resurrection, and the final judgment in that day.
Romans 13:11
“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.”Hardly randomly and without sense
For example I posted all the following
In response to your statement
Addressing your ending comment and showing that it does not appear in the text
So it was not random nor was it without sense
I have no problem with that at all.
The problem is Calvinist belief holds man is incapable of belief and that God must first regenerate or save man
No such thing appears in the verses.
And faith must exist before regeneration or salvation.
You erroneously redefine salvation with your introduction of "practical salvation" which you claim to be the "coming to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ". There is nothing about the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ that can be considered salvation. Knowledge is not salvation. Knowledge does not produce salvation. Knowledge is, at best, only the mental assent aspect of faith. James says that even demons believe (Jam 2:19). Clearly, they have" come to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ". There is nothing about that knowledge that saves anyone.
We could at this point consider a study in what is salvation. There seems to be no real agreement and understanding in what you have presented here on what is even the meaning of salvation. Without an understanding of what salvation means all discussions of salvation are really not of much good. There are a lot of things that can be attributed to salvation, to being saved, things such as regeneration, justification, redemption, inheritance, glorification, adoption, etc. However, none of those actually defines what salvation is. I won't bother to go any further with that other than to note that what you have called "practical" salvation is not salvation at all in any way, shape or form.
civic
Active Member
Jim here is how Jesus used the word salvation, to save.
Salvation and the N.T. Greek words.
NT:4990 /soter (so-tare'); from NT:4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:
KJV - saviour.
NT:4991 / soteria (so-tay-ree'-ah); feminine of a derivative of NT:4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally):
KJV - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
NT:4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):
KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
Luke 19:5-10
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
To save- it means to deliver out of danger
Salvation- refers to the activity which produces the state of safety
Savior- is reserved for the one who saves.
We sometimes talk about saving things but Jesus only used the word with man whom He saved.
Luke 19:9- This is the only time Jesus used the word salvation and that was with Zacchaeus. Christ’s purpose was one of seeking and saving the lost. Zacchaeus was a rich tax collector who was looked down upon for his livelihood. He was despised by those around him. When Jesus approached him and Zacchaeus looked up at Him , Jesus asked him to use his house and Zacchaeus gladly came down and received Him. When they went into the house the multitude murmured and within a short visit Zacchaeus was repentant of his ill gains which was evidence of his new found faith in the Savior. Salvation is the power that takes hold of a person and remakes him.
Here are some verses that Jesus used the word save.
Luke 6:9- Jesus restored the withered hand
Luke 8:48- Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood
Luke 8:50- Jesus raised Jairus daughter from the dead
Luke 17:19- Jesus cleansed the lepers
Luke 18:42- Jesus healed the blind
So as we can see to save means to completely remove or destroy those destructive forces. To restore all that had been lost. Salvation in the teaching of Jesus is the complete change from one condition to its opposite. Jesus confronted man with the reality of sin. The religious people of his day hated Him without a cause because they loved their sin. Jesus taught us to “repent toward God”(Matt 4:17) To believe in Me (John 6:28,29) and “test Me”, will to do My will. ( John 7:17)
Eternal life is to know Christ ( John 17:3) Jesus said you are my disciples if you abide in Me. ( John 8:31,32) Apart from Him I can do nothing.(John 15:5)
Faith is a conviction of the mind that Christ is God. Jesus said unless you believe that “ I AM” you will die in your sins.(John 8:24) Read the whole chapter. Paul declared one must confess Jesus is Lord(YHWH) to be saved and those who call upon Him will be delivered(Joel 2:32). Secondly it is a voluntary surrender to Him as Lord or Master of your life. By faith our mind trusts in God, our heart responds to His love and our will submits to the commands of God. Our life yields to obedience in our service to Him. Faith goes beyond reason, it believes without understanding why. ( Heb 11:1) Faith chooses to endure ill treatment (Heb 11:25) Faith accepts all things as a part of God will, Paul’s imprisonment.( Phil1:12) You are not born with faith, it comes from hearing Gods word(Rom 10:17) You cannot be saved without faith.(John 3:36) No peace with God without faith.(Rom 5:1) You are justified by faith(Gal 2:16) Christ dwells in our hearts by faith (Eph 3:17) The Spirit is received by faith (Gal 3:2) And finally Jesus alone is the author and finisher of our faith.(Heb 12:2)
hope this helps,
With all due respect @civic, you have said a lot about salvation but still have not really said what it is.
I am not intending to be antagonistic, but I stand by my comment to Red. None of what you presented there is an answer to Red's misrepresentation of what salvation is.
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