Calvinism : Fictional Characters

[Rockson]

The strangeness of Calvinism really come down to this.

It can be akin to God to being like an author of a fiction book. A book has many characters in it human personalities but absolutely EVERYTHING is ordained by the author. The WCT says this,

God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.....

That's really all you need to know about it. If you're going to say he ORDAINS everything then that's what they've said. Now they try to modify the statement and soften the blow to make it seem less extreme by asserting that no violence is done to the will of creatures but you should consider that's just window dressing nonsense. If God ordains EVERYTHING then he ordains everything. If they don't want to hold to that then they shouldn't therefore say it.

Thing about an author ordaining the fate of his fictional characters......none of them are real. There's no injustice done to them for they're not even a life entity with feelings, passions and needs. Real human beings however have all of those things. So Calvinism wants you to buy into a belief that the God who calls himself LOVE could be so unfair and unjust to his creation to do this? Sorry but the philosophy they have takes you down a dead end and leave you there. Consider that all rational reasonable thought is thrown out the window.

 

[civic]

Yes determinism is fatalism no ifs ands or buts about that @Rockson

 

[TedT]

Yes determinism is fatalism no ifs ands or buts about that @Rockson

Unless...we first chose our own FATE - deciding to join HIS Family or to be HIS eternal enemy with no determinism involved in the least,
then, by our undetermined free will as HIS elect we chose to rebel and to be sinful in HIS sight,
THEN HE gave those who chose HIM as savior from any sin determined LIVES, that is, determined to be the best and most perfect lives to return these lost sheep to HIS fold by bringing them to repentance, righteousness and sanctification...
then determinism is not fatalism but in fact fulfills our free will decision to choose HIM as our GOD and Saviour.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Unless...we first chose our own FATE - deciding to join HIS Family or to be HIS eternal enemy with no determinism involved in the least,
then, by our undetermined free will as HIS elect we chose to rebel and to be sinful in HIS sight,
THEN HE gave those who chose HIM as savior from any sin determined LIVES, that is, determined to be the best and most perfect lives to return these lost sheep to HIS fold by bringing them to repentance, righteousness and sanctification...
then determinism is not fatalism but in fact fulfills our free will decision to choose HIM as our GOD and Saviour.

Living tends to changes a person's perspective. Life is always teaching.

The thief on the cross learned his lesson well......

 

[Presby02]

Yes determinism is fatalism no ifs ands or buts about that @Rockson

Determinism is not fatalism. No ifs, and or buts.

 

[civic]

Determinism is not fatalism. No ifs, and or buts.

Sure it is . I’ll prove it after work

 

[Bubba]

Living tends to changes a person's perspective. Life is always teaching.

The thief on the cross learned his lesson well......

I went to that garden party. I learned...You can't please everyone. But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.

 

[Presby02]

Sure it is . I’ll prove it after work

Please and then I can refute you rather easily.

 

[Bubba]

Please and then I can refute you rather easily.

In your dreams...I'll get the popcorn ready. Civic will mop the floor with you. I'm just kidding I hope you guys have a good debate. But I do know when it comes to debates Civic is pretty sharp.

 

[Hosanna]

I'm selling seats in the front row any takers?
Here's the preview show

What is fatalism? What is determinism? | GotQuestions.org

What is fatalism? What is a fatalist? What is determinism? Are we nothing but pawns forced to accept our fate?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Presby02]

In your dreams...I'll get the popcorn ready. Civic will mop the floor with you. I'm just kidding I hope you guys have a good debate. But I do know when it comes to debates Civic is pretty sharp.

The burden of proof lies with civic. It's his claim that determinism is fatalism. So we shall see.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

Seriously, Civic is a deep sea fishermen and a golfer. He will hook you reel you in and whack you with the nine iron. You won't know what hit you.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

The burden of proof lies with civic. It's his claim that determinism is fatalism. So we shall see.

I hope you do well we're just having fun.

 

[Presby02]

Seriously, Civic is a deep sea fishermen and a golfer. He will hook you reel you in and whack you with the nine iron. You won't know what hit you.

We shall see. It's not our first go around and frankly I was not all that impressed.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

We shall see. It's not our first go around and frankly I was not all that impressed.

That's a good one, that's like throwing the first glove down.

 

[Presby02]

That's a good one, that's like throwing the first glove down.

We have actually had this debate before. If determinists are fatalistic then so is anyone who believes in God's foreknowledge and omniscience.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

We have actually had this debate before. If determinists are fatalistic then so is anyone who believes in God's foreknowledge and omniscience.

Well it sounds like you know what you're talking about so it should be a good debate.

 

[Bubba]

The burden of proof lies with civic. It's his claim that determinism is fatalism. So we shall see.

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[civic]

Please and then I can refute you rather easily.

Like I say determinism is fatalism.


Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.

1. Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
   Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.
2. Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
   Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.

In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.

Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.

Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.

According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.

The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.

As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.

Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.

Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.

calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Please and then I can refute you rather easily.

I would get resistance and denial all the time from C’s with fatalism being a synonym of determinism . I would quote Calvinists saying the same thing as the definition of fatalism in their arguments and I would still get denial . Some cannot look in the mirror as see the reflection of what they actually look like to others with their teaching . It’s why compatibism exists for Calvinists who cannot swallow the determinism taught by Calvin . They cry “ mystery’ card where the real Calvinist faces the music with determinism and direct try getting God off the hook and soften the fatalistic world God created in Calvinism . Everything was/ is fixed No exception. Sin, evil was His hard determined will , glory and purpose so by default is culpable.

Websters affirms this below, the calvinist affirms this with their proof texts here: Prov 16:4 ,1 Peter 2:8 and the WCF also affirms this in the confession. Romans 9 and double predestination also affirms its fatalism by the definition. As we see it makes God unjust.

fatalism noun​

fa·tal·ism | \ ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm \

Definition of fatalism : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine​

from Stanford encyclopedia

Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”.


Do I need to continue