Calling on the Name of The Lord

[brightfame52]

Dead spiritually does not mean incapable of acting. Spiritual death is not the same as physical death. In physical death, the body dies and is incapable of further action. But with spiritual death, the spirit is still capable of independent action. Refer to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Even in physical and spiritual death, the rich man could still communicate, think, reason, and observe his environment and that of Lazarus.

It means incapable of acting spiritually.

 

[Doug Brents]

It means incapable of acting spiritually.

No, it does not, again as evidenced by the rich man being able to act spiritually.

 

[brightfame52]

No, it does not, again as evidenced by the rich man being able to act spiritually.

Yes it does. Man naturally is spiritually dead in sin and alienated from God, mind and heart is darkened

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes it does. Man naturally is spiritually dead in sin and alienated from God, mind and heart is darkened

Agreed, but that does not mean spiritually incapable of responding to God's invitation to reenter union with Himself. He has given each and every one of us the ability to choose to follow Him, and to obey His Gospel, because when Jesus was lifted up on the cross He drew all men to Him. That means that even if you were right about man's situation under the Old Covenant, everything changed upon Jesus' death (and that includes for those under the Old Covenant).

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed, but that does not mean spiritually incapable of responding to God's invitation to reenter union with Himself. He has given each and every one of us the ability to choose to follow Him, and to obey His Gospel, because when Jesus was lifted up on the cross He drew all men to Him. That means that even if you were right about man's situation under the Old Covenant, everything changed upon Jesus' death (and that includes for those under the Old Covenant).

Yes it does mean that.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes it does mean that.

Your opinion is duly noted, but it does not agree with Scripture. I will trust what Scripture says over your opinion.

I really appreciate your dedication to teaching what you believe is true. But I ask that you study some more, and make sure that what you are teaching agrees with Scripture 100% before you try teaching it as Biblical truth. I also have beliefs that are adamantly opposed by many on this forum, but I spent over 5 years studying the Scriptures and reading people's arguments against what I have come to believe, and I have proven what I believe through the Scriptures. Any belief I have that is contradictory to Scripture I must change. Because it is not my belief, but Scripture, that is supreme.

 

[brightfame52]

Your opinion is duly noted, but it does not agree with Scripture. I will trust what Scripture says over your opinion.

I really appreciate your dedication to teaching what you believe is true. But I ask that you study some more, and make sure that what you are teaching agrees with Scripture 100% before you try teaching it as Biblical truth. I also have beliefs that are adamantly opposed by many on this forum, but I spent over 5 years studying the Scriptures and reading people's arguments against what I have come to believe, and I have proven what I believe through the Scriptures. Any belief I have that is contradictory to Scripture I must change. Because it is not my belief, but Scripture, that is supreme.

Rom 10:9-10 is about assurance of Salvation, having already been saved

 

[Doug Brents]

Rom 10:9-10 is about assurance of Salvation, having already been saved

It is speaking to saved people about when they became saved. Before they were saved they confessed Jesus as Lord and that LEAD TO them being saved.
"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Salvation comes after one confesses Jesus as Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

It is speaking to saved people about when they became saved. Before they were saved they confessed Jesus as Lord and that LEAD TO them being saved.
"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Salvation comes after one confesses Jesus as Lord.

Its talking to saved people about assurance and future Salvation " thou shalt be saved" in Rom 10:9 is a future passive indicative,

Also in my studies I learned from this

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"​

In a word, YES, but not for the reasons most people think. However, those who believe in what is called High Calvinism or Unconditional Election and Predestination or Particular Redemption such as the Primitive Baptists, some times say, No, you don't have to believe in order to be saved. This difficulty arises from a misconception, sometimes in both Calvinists and Arminians, about what it means to be saved.
First, the Bible makes a distinction between being saved eternally (eternal life) and being saved in time (conversion). That does not mean that eternal salvation and salvation in time are mutually exclusive. The fact is one begets the other. Salvation is a broad term that encompasses both eternal life and conversion. Therefore, those who experience eternal life will likewise experience conversion. But confusion arises when a failure is made to distinguish the meaning of a small but significant word be.

Most modern Christians, because of false theology, think the scriptures teach that to be means the same thing as to get. However, there is an important difference between the two. If the Bible taught that one must believe in order to get saved, then salvation would be by our own effort. But the Bible teaches one must believe in order to be saved. The word be indicates a statement of fact. The word get indicates a condition to be met.

What's the difference? Mark 16:16 states, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Clearly this scripture is talking about salvation in both its temporal and eternal aspect. Many Christians today have been taught that scriptures such as this one mean you must believe in order to get saved. But that is not at all what Christ said. The term "shall be saved" is translated from the Greek word sodzo. In this passage the verb sodzo is in the Future Tense, Passive Voice, Indicative Mood. The Online Bible says, "The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact." Because sodzo is written in the indicative mood, it means the salvation Christ has under consideration is not and cannot be a condition to be met. It means that belief is the evidence or assurance of salvation not the means to obtain salvation. It means that everyone who has been saved or will "be saved" will believe in Christ as a matter of fact. Thus, as this scripture demonstrates, belief is necessary because of salvation not to get salvation.

If Christ had rendered sodzo in the imperative mood, then one would be correct in saying you must believe in order to get saved. The Online Bible defines the imperative mood as that which, "expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding." A good example of a scripture with an imperative command is found in the Great Commission. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Mathew 28:19. "Teach" is from the Greek word matheteuo. This verb is written in the imperative mood and expresses a clear command to the disciples to teach the nations Christ's doctrine.

Another example of sodzo is found in Ro 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. And again in Ro 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. In both of these scriptures sodzo is rendered in the indicative mood. Therefore it is a statement of fact that anyone who confesses belief in Jesus and His resurrection, calling upon His name from the heart, will be saved. Because the mood is indicative, it is not the belief, confession or sincerity that results in the saving, either in time or in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Saviour. He saves with the power of his shed blood and by grace alone delivers the sinner from death. Belief, confession and sincerity from the heart are all the result of Christ's saving work not the cause or means to obtain that saving work.

The recipients of this sovereign saving work of Christ are referred to in the scriptures as my sheep, His People, my people, the chosen, the elect and Israel (spiritual). John 10:27, Mathew 1:21, II Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 1:4, II Timothy 2:10, Romans 9:6-24.
It is true that one doesn't have to believe in order to get saved but the Bible teaches a person must believe to be saved.

Elder James Taylor

Edit 10/5/2006

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

www.oldschoolbaptist.org

 

[Doug Brents]

Its talking to saved people about assurance and future Salvation " thou shalt be saved" in Rom 10:9 is a future passive indicative,

"Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Look back at the context of the passage. Paul is talking to Gentiles about his desire to save his Jewish brothers ("them" and "they" in verse 1 and two are unbelieving Jews). And he contrasts salvation under the Old Covenant (by works of the Law) with salvation under the New Covenant (by faith). Then he quotes from the OT passages about going up or down to bring Christ up or down. But that is not needed because the Word is already in their mouths and hearts (the word of faith which he is preaching), and that Word is "if you confess with your mouth ... and believe in your heart ... you will be saved". And that is because a person believes with the heart RESULTING IN righteousness, and confesses with the mouth RESULTING IN salvation. This is not talking about those who are already saved.

Also in my studies I learned from this

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

www.oldschoolbaptist.org

Yes, you must believe in order to be saved through baptism. Because if you don't believe then baptism is meaningless to you. But you are also not saved by belief before baptism, for it is in baptism that sins are cut from you and the Spirit takes up residence in your heart.

 

[brightfame52]

"Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Look back at the context of the passage. Paul is talking to Gentiles about his desire to save his Jewish brothers ("them" and "they" in verse 1 and two are unbelieving Jews). And he contrasts salvation under the Old Covenant (by works of the Law) with salvation under the New Covenant (by faith). Then he quotes from the OT passages about going up or down to bring Christ up or down. But that is not needed because the Word is already in their mouths and hearts (the word of faith which he is preaching), and that Word is "if you confess with your mouth ... and believe in your heart ... you will be saved". And that is because a person believes with the heart RESULTING IN righteousness, and confesses with the mouth RESULTING IN salvation. This is not talking about those who are already saved.

Yes, you must believe in order to be saved through baptism. Because if you don't believe then baptism is meaningless to you. But you are also not saved by belief before baptism, for it is in baptism that sins are cut from you and the Spirit takes up residence in your heart.

Well I gave you a good breakdown and you cant see it, you wedded to salvation by works, conditioned on man, may God be merciful to you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well I gave you a good breakdown and you cant see it, you wedded to salvation by works, conditioned on man, may God be merciful to you.

Bright, we were going along so well until you ran into your preconceptions and balked at learning some real TRUTH. Step back from your preconceptions and read the Scripture for yourself. Don't rely on what other people, like oldschoolbaptist.org, have told you. Read Rom 10:1-10 for yourself. Who is he really talking to and about? What is he really saying? Now compare what you read with what I posted in #190. Is he really talking about Jews? Do they really have the Word of God already in their hearts? Read the Word! Don't just run back to the safety of your "works conditioned" salvation attack and stop learning.

 

[brightfame52]

Bright, we were going along so well until you ran into your preconceptions and balked at learning some real TRUTH. Step back from your preconceptions and read the Scripture for yourself. Don't rely on what other people, like oldschoolbaptist.org, have told you. Read Rom 10:1-10 for yourself. Who is he really talking to and about? What is he really saying? Now compare what you read with what I posted in #190. Is he really talking about Jews? Do they really have the Word of God already in their hearts? Read the Word! Don't just run back to the safety of your "works conditioned" salvation attack and stop learning.

Did you read the article and understand its points

 

[Doug Brents]

Did you read the article and understand its points

I have, and I disagree with him on several points. I would agree that "be saved" means to receive something that we cannot do on our own. But I do not agree that it means that salvation is unconditional. There are several passages, Acts 3:19 and Rom 10:9-10 among them, that are very specific in saying that there are conditions we must meet in order to receive the salvation that only Jesus can provide. These verses indicate that Jesus is selective of who receives His salvation based on the submission of each individual to release his own will and surrender to God's will. And this submission is exemplified by one's repentance, confession and baptism. Anyone who "believes" (has faith exemplified by obedience and surrender) the Gospel receives God's forgiveness through Christ. Anyone who does not believe it remains condemned because all have sinned and are under condemnation for breaking God's law.

 

[brightfame52]

I have, and I disagree with him on several points. I would agree that "be saved" means to receive something that we cannot do on our own. But I do not agree that it means that salvation is unconditional. There are several passages, Acts 3:19 and Rom 10:9-10 among them, that are very specific in saying that there are conditions we must meet in order to receive the salvation that only Jesus can provide. These verses indicate that Jesus is selective of who receives His salvation based on the submission of each individual to release his own will and surrender to God's will. And this submission is exemplified by one's repentance, confession and baptism. Anyone who "believes" (has faith exemplified by obedience and surrender) the Gospel receives God's forgiveness through Christ. Anyone who does not believe it remains condemned because all have sinned and are under condemnation for breaking God's law.

Okay, you disagree, I agree with the article, and so you know the deal, I believe we have understanding you dont have.

 

[Doug Brents]

Okay, you disagree, I agree with the article, and so you know the deal, I believe we have understanding you dont have.

It is certain that you have an understanding that I don't have. The way you say that implies that you believe my understanding is wrong because it differs with yours. But my understanding, along with the understanding of all the people discussing this with you here, agrees with Scripture's overall message that there are conditions man must meet to receive God's salvation. This does not imply that we "earn" salvation by meeting these conditions. On the contrary, we fully admit that we cannot coerce God into giving us salvation through anything we do. We can only trust what He says He will do.
As just one example from the many in Scripture, take the widow who was about to starve and was told by the prophet to give him her last bite of food. She could have chosen to eat that last bite herself. But she honored God and His prophet, and so gave the food to Elijah, and he in turn gave her enough food to survive the famine (1 Kings 17:8-16). Her salvation (from starvation) was conditioned on her obedience to Elijah. So too, our salvation is conditioned on our obedience to Jesus (Heb 5:9).

 

[brightfame52]

It is certain that you have an understanding that I don't have. The way you say that implies that you believe my understanding is wrong because it differs with yours. But my understanding, along with the understanding of all the people discussing this with you here, agrees with Scripture's overall message that there are conditions man must meet to receive God's salvation. This does not imply that we "earn" salvation by meeting these conditions. On the contrary, we fully admit that we cannot coerce God into giving us salvation through anything we do. We can only trust what He says He will do.
As just one example from the many in Scripture, take the widow who was about to starve and was told by the prophet to give him her last bite of food. She could have chosen to eat that last bite herself. But she honored God and His prophet, and so gave the food to Elijah, and he in turn gave her enough food to survive the famine (1 Kings 17:8-16). Her salvation (from starvation) was conditioned on her obedience to Elijah. So too, our salvation is conditioned on our obedience to Jesus (Heb 5:9).

So I believe you in grave error, and condition salvation on man, works salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

So I believe you in grave error, and condition salvation on man, works salvation.

Yes, you tie a nice little bow around it, give it a name, and discard it as error without study or consideration of the Word of God. I fully understand your position, and would agree with you, if the only passages of Scripture that existed were the passages you rest your doctrine on. But there are many more that show your conclusions to be false, and they must be included in your consideration or you risk reaching a false conclusion, as you have.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, you tie a nice little bow around it, give it a name, and discard it as error without study or consideration of the Word of God. I fully understand your position, and would agree with you, if the only passages of Scripture that existed were the passages you rest your doctrine on. But there are many more that show your conclusions to be false, and they must be included in your consideration or you risk reaching a false conclusion, as you have.

Why you keep going back and forth, I have shown you your error, salvation by works

 

[Doug Brents]

Why you keep going back and forth, I have shown you your error, salvation by works

There is no such thing as "salvation by works". That is your construct that you have created so you can live in rebellion to God through rejection of God's direct command.

Yes, God gives us a gift that we cannot earn, coerce out of Him, or deserve.
But if we fail to unwrap the gift that He has put on our table, we never get to enjoy the benefit of having it in our life. The gift of salvation is sitting right there for everyone to take hold of, but the only ones who get to enjoy it are those who obey Christ's commands that HE says lead to receiving that blessing.