brightfame52
Active Member
No he did not
By Nature Children of Wrath as others !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
It seems to me that the question you need to ask yourself is, "Am I willing to submit to what the Scripture says, or am I going to be someone who is embracing a theology out of hand?"
brightfame52
Active Member
You said imputing sin to Christ declares Him a sinner not me. And you have no scripture stating what you said.
That is precisely the point.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay so don't say I said it. I don't agree with your unscriptural statement. Imputing sin to Christ was a legal judicial action, it made Him responsible for the sins of the elect in satisfying the penalty of their sins. He Himself was not made a sinner, but more of a sin offering that had to be spotless, unblemished
brightfame52
Active Member
If the elect of God, who by nature are the children of wrath as others[the non elect] if they at anytime be under Gods wrath because of their sins and being children of wrath by nature, then it serves to reason that Gods wrath wasn't turned away by the atoning blood of His Dear Son, that His blood failed to satisfy His offended Justice for them, that His Blood failed to propitiate Him, to appease or turn away His Wrath on them. If that Blood didn't do it, then what does ? Is it the sinners act of believing that ultimately appeased Gods Wrath over and above the Blood of Christ ?
brightfame52
Active Member
Justice
atpollard
Active Member
Ephesians 2:1-10 says the same thing, so some of the blame should probably go to Paul.
atpollard
Active Member
Respectfully, what is "just" about punishing an innocent man and not punishing a guilty man?
It is about GRACE (unmerited favor).
Romans 9:14-16 [ESV]
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Wrath is not TRANSFERRED, it is stored for the day of wrath ...Romans 9:22-24 [ESV]
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
... or it is "not remembered":
Psalms 103:8-13 [ESV]
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. As a father shows compassion to his children, so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.
Jeremiah 31:33-34 [ESV]
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Hebrews 8:12 [ESV]
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Hebrews10:17 [ESV]
then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
brightfame52
Active Member
You need to speak to God about that arrangement, I know God is a Just God and I know Christ died for the sins of others. You don't believe that?
Richard
Active Member
The jury is still out on that one.
Just kidding, you just keep standing up for what you believe.
DavidTree
Active Member
@brightfame52 and @SwordmanDo you really want to compare credentials? In the spirit of Philippians 3:4-7 let me be up front about who I am:
"Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord." (Philippians 3:7–8 NRSV).
- I accepted Christ as the age of 10, having been raised in a Christian household. My earliest memory is from age 3, of family devotions in the morning. (I remember being frustrated at having to get up to pray.
- Undergrad in Philosophy.
- Masters in business, biblical studies, and advanced biblical studies. Studied under Michael J. Gorman.
- Doctorates of Ministry (DMin) and Philosophy (PhD). DMin study was under Scot McKnight. PhD was under a variety of scholars, including two classes at Oxford.
- Member for the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS) and Society of Biblical Lieterature (SBL). I have presented at both regional and annual meetings for both.
- Member of the Institute for Biblical Research (IBR).
- Author of Mercy for All (based on my PhD dissertation). It focuses on the argument from Romans 9-11, but looks at numerous other texts by Paul and historical ways he has been interpreted.
- Author of a chapter on Peter in And Upon this Rock, edited by Scot McKnight.
- Contribute regularly to two teaching quarterlies (about twice a quarter).
- Retired, but I was an adjunct faculty member for Nyack College DC and Denver Seminary.
We were all under God's wrath before new birth. If not, we would not need to be redeemed and restored.
Study is GOOD and we are commanded to study God's word, for by the Word we grow.
But know this, that a little child can study God's word from his bedroom and thru faith in the Word that little child can receive
greater understanding then many with PhD's.
Matthew 18:1-5
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.
Wilber
Active Member
No no the sameEphesians 2:1-10 says the same thing, so some of the blame should probably go to Paul.
Ephesians 2:1-10 explains a transition from a state of spiritual death in sin to new life in Christ through God's grace. It details that people were once spiritually dead, following the world and their sinful desires, subject to God's wrath. However, God, in His mercy and love, made them alive with Christ through faith, which is a gift from Him, not earned by works. This salvation means believers are God's "workmanship" or "masterpiece," created to do good works that were prepared in advance.
Spiritual deadness is a condition which finds its source in Satan. He was the first to fall, and his deceptive influence contributed to the fall of Man in the Garden. Today, he rules the hearts of those bound in spiritual deadness, and he exerts his controlling influence through the fear of death (see Heb 2:14-15). In short, all unbelievers are spiritually dead sons and slaves of the devil.
4. We were once among them, following after our flesh and living according to this dead nature.
Every Christian should understand their former state to be the same as every other unbeliever. No one is "born" a Christian. Every human being is a sinner, dead in their trespasses from birth. All humanity shares the same starting point as children of (God's) wrath.
From this opening, Paul sets the stage to explain why and how we were saved from this state of spiritual deadness. In the process, his gives us the Biblical definition of grace itself. See verses 4-7:
Eph. 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved),
Eph. 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph. 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
In verse 4, Paul now presents why we were rescued from this state of deadness: because God was rich in mercy and had a great love for us, He acted to save us. By itself, this statement negates any consideration of works. God's reason for saving us was entirely His own. Being rich in mercy and having a great love, God determined to save us. We did not merit His mercy, nor did we earn our salvation.
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Please define.
brightfame52
Active Member
Look up Justice
I am curious what you think it is.
The forensic model of salvation has some serious problems that I do not think you are considering.
brightfame52
Active Member
Look at my threads and posts I've gave my views
I am not going to go through all your threads and posts. If you cannot articulate your view in a simple way, there is no reason for you to discuss it.
Do you believe you are saved? If so, what are you saved from? How are you saved?
If you are going to debate on spiritual matters, you need to build an argument from Scripture. I know you tried to do that at the beginning of the thread, but I called your method into question. I do not question scripture, only how people use it.
You need to be able to build an argument from context and from common understandings of ideas. Otherwise, communication cannot happen.
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That is all fine and good. If you remember from my testimony (first bullet point), I began my spiritual journey as a child.
If you noticed, I ended my list with: "Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord" (Philippians 3:7–8 NRSV).
I do not usually give out my credentials because some will either dismiss them or accuse me of hubris. However, since my opponent used his to demonstrate some kind of authority, I simply did what Paul did in Philippians 3.
Children generally are not on forums like this. What is found are people who like to debate or discuss theology. That is what we are doing here.
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