Bible Problem

NetChaplain

Active member
Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

It can be trustingly assumed that God's Word would be contained in the right translation, as He would not withhold any of His Words to us. It just has to be plenary first (Mat 4:4), even though the translation isn't perfect, the Word of God within the translation is; this is how God works--using the sinful for good. He uses believers for good, though the "old man" still indwells them! When people begin to doubt the Word of God concerning plenary inspiration, it reveals misunderstanding, and entreats disuse of the Word. God has relayed all His Word, and there is nothing more and nothing less for Him to show us in this life!

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
 
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Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

It can be trustingly assumed that God's Word would be contained in the right translation, as He would not withhold any of His Words to us. It just has to be plenary first (Mat 4:4), even though the translation isn't perfect, the Word of God within the translation is; this is how God works--using the sinful for good. He uses believers for good, though the "old man" still indwells them! When people begin to doubt the Word of God concerning plenary inspiration, it reveals misunderstanding, and entreats disuse of the Word. God has relayed all His Word, and there is nothing more and nothing less for Him to show us in this life!

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
Moved thread to be under "The Bible" heading top of page
 
In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”
That's an interesting view. But I would argue that you just proved that the King James Version has an error in it - one you just proved.
This evidence shows that the King James translators ADDED to the text where there was nothing. No evidence in any existing manuscript. So they took it upon themselves to "correct Scripture". That is not the kind of Bible I want to read.

Even though it is obvious that something has been missed in the copying of manuscripts of II Samuel 21, it does not change the meaning whatsoever because as you point out II Chronicles contains the missing information. Any person with logic can figure out the difference and what it should actually have said. Does this affect the salvation of anyone? I would say no.

Any Bible that is courageous enough to stick with the text and translate only what is there, is doing things the way that I believe God intends. Here is evidence that the KJV translators did not.
 
ALL manuscripts should be examined and collated.

Not just some.
There are only two sources of manuscripts: the Majority Text (which partly underlies the the Received Text by Erasmus); the Alexandrian Text types (which are primarily only a few manuscripts that were never used). All have been examined and categorized.
 
There are only two sources of manuscripts: the Majority Text (which partly underlies the the Received Text by Erasmus); the Alexandrian Text types (which are primarily only a few manuscripts that were never used). All have been examined and categorized.

Incorrect.

Each manuscript is it's own entity, even if "seemingly" related.

By just using "lumping" techniques you oversimplify and lose information.
 
That's an interesting view. But I would argue that you just proved that the King James Version has an error in it - one you just proved.
This evidence shows that the King James translators ADDED to the text where there was nothing. No evidence in any existing manuscript. So they took it upon themselves to "correct Scripture". That is not the kind of Bible I want to read.
Why would anyone like a Bible that says Elhanan and not David killed Goliath? To avoid being suspected of adding to the Word, only the KJV Bibles italicized words that were not in the manuscript, in order to maintain correct readings.
 
Incorrect.

Each manuscript is it's own entity, even if "seemingly" related.

By just using "lumping" techniques you oversimplify and lose information.
Scholars classify manuscripts by agreeable content, context, and variant listings, hence the Majority Text has overwhelmingly the most agreeable source.
 
Why would anyone like a Bible that says Elhanan and not David killed Goliath?
It's not about "liking". It's about truthfully translating what is there.
To avoid being suspected of adding to the Word, only the KJV Bibles italicized words that were not in the manuscript, in order to maintain correct readings.
That is NOT a true statement. You can see other Bible translations which added this information to the text. One of the big differences is that these other Bibles include a footnote specifically stating the issue. Many King James Bible publishers have omitted any footnotes about issues because of this exact issue - the illusion that the King James Bible is perfect.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lsb/2sa/21/1/t_bibles_288019
 
It's not about "liking". It's about truthfully translating what is there.
True, but they need to correct the blatant error in the OT. Then add the omissions and remove the transpositions and interpolations. That way it will mean the same as the original thought intentions. I think these modern translations vary too much of the of time from the Traditional Text. Only translations that are derived from the Byzantine Text (Majority Text) contain the plenary of Scripture. None of the modern translations (except the NKJV and a few others like it) can claim perfection; missing, I believe, about one-third the content of the Traditional Text.
That is NOT a true statement. You can see other Bible translations which added this information to the text. One of the big differences is that these other Bibles include a footnote specifically stating the issue. Many King James Bible publishers have omitted any footnotes about issues because of this exact issue - the illusion that the King James Bible is perfect.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lsb/2sa/21/1/t_bibles_288019
I have yet to see a NKJV without footnotes. The word "perfect" to me is with reference to its contents, i.e. how much of the Word is presented in order to attain "completeness" (perfect - entire - plenary).
 
True, but they need to correct the blatant error in the OT. Then add the omissions and remove the transpositions and interpolations. That way it will mean the same as the original thought intentions. I think these modern translations vary too much of the of time from the Traditional Text. Only translations that are derived from the Byzantine Text (Majority Text) contain the plenary of Scripture. None of the modern translations (except the NKJV and a few others like it) can claim perfection; missing, I believe, about one-third the content of the Traditional Text.

I have yet to see a NKJV without footnotes. The word "perfect" to me is with reference to its contents, i.e. how much of the Word is presented in order to attain "completeness" (perfect - entire - plenary).
Yet, you made a false statement. There ARE OTHER Bible translations that do add to their text to include "the brother of" where the particular manuscript evidence does not say that. You didn't even acknowledge that fact.
 
It’s my understanding that the word “perfect” concerning a translation is mostly in reference to being complete, entire, and plenary. Thus, only translations derived from the majority of extant manuscripts contain all of Word of God (Mat 4:4)! Studying a translation which has much less manuscript evidence cannot affect one’s salvation; but it will affect one’s spiritual growth in the Lord Jesus (Eph 5:14).
 
There ARE OTHER Bible translations that do add to their text to include "the brother of" where the particular manuscript evidence does not say that. You didn't even acknowledge that fact.
I'm aware of only a couple modern translations that corrected the reading: NIV and NET. Only recently (last 15 years) did the NIV correct it, for they contained it for a long time.
 
Why would anyone like a Bible that says Elhanan and not David killed Goliath? To avoid being suspected of adding to the Word, only the KJV Bibles italicized words that were not in the manuscript, in order to maintain correct readings.

I agree that men have worked to bend scriptures to their own pre-conceived ideas. Whether it's the actual text, or a translation of the text, men will try and bent it to their will. I believe though, that the God of the Bible, if HE exists, would have saw this coming, and knowing this He would have made sure all the translated scriptures contained the necessary truth for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works., regardless of who Translated it.

So even though there are some pretty bad translations, like the NIV for instance, if a man is seeking the Truth of God, he will find it even in these modern progressive translations. The key it seems, in my understanding, is to consider "ALL" that is written, as opposed to separating a couple of verses from the rest of scriptures, and then creating a doctrine based on just the few scriptures. When coupled with examining more than one translation, it seems even the common man is able to, as Paul says according to the KJV, present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The much greater danger, in my understanding of Scriptures and the warnings of the Christ defined therein, are "men" who come in Christ's Name whose interpretation of available scriptures differ from one religious sect of this world, to another. Many time's interpretating from the same translations.

I am a staunch believer that God can reveal His Truth to men, without them having to choose a Valentinus, or a Calvin, or a Wesley, or a Copeland, or one of the many religious sects and franchises of this world, to interpret the scriptures for them, and just hope they picked the right one to interpret the Scriptures for them.

I think this is a way greater danger than the different translations, because surely the Jesus of the Bible would have known about them, and certainly His Father as well. And they both warned about religious men in the future, but never about the Holy Scriptures available to us in the future.

Great topic though.
 
Scholars classify manuscripts by agreeable content, context, and variant listings, hence the Majority Text has overwhelmingly the most agreeable source.

They also reproduce the ones they favor. Which causes the misleading claim of "Majority Text". I believe God has often been found in the "minority".
 
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