Augustine's unbiblical doctrine of Amillennialism

CLUE #2 - God will NEVER leave a single Lamb of His behind.

You should try BELIEVING the words of Christ and the Apostles.

If you do, you will deliver yourself from the many christian false prophets.
After the Pre-tribulation is the seven-year period in the end times in which humanity’s decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly. Also during that time, Israel will repent of their sin and receive Jesus as their Messiah, setting up a time of great blessing and restoration (Zephaniah 3:9–20; Isaiah 12; 35).
 
After the Pre-tribulation is the seven-year period in the end times in which humanity’s decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly. Also during that time, Israel will repent of their sin and receive Jesus as their Messiah, setting up a time of great blessing and restoration (Zephaniah 3:9–20; Isaiah 12; 35).

i SEE you have been feeding from the hands of the christian false prophets.

CLUE #3 - The LORD Jesus Christ never once spoke of a 7 year tribulation period in His Gospel.

CLUE #4 - The Apostles never once spoke of a 7 year period in their writings/letters/epistles.

CLUE #5 - There is not one verse in all of Revelation that speaks of a 7 year tribulation period.
 
Absolutely True.

The Saints will March on thru the Tribulation Period just as the LORD and the Apostles and the Prophets said they would.
Psalm 2 is about:
A.) the LORD on His Throne
B.) the opportunity to choose
C.) the calamity of making the wrong choice
D.) His Second Coming
E.) Deliverance only for those abiding in the Son

SAME Message that Began in Genesis and runs thru the Bible unto Revelation.

Yourself, @Fitzpatrick and @civic need to recieve the admonition of the LORD being shared with you from @The Rogue Tomato
 
Psalm 2 is about:
A.) the LORD on His Throne
Yep.
B.) the opportunity to choose
Yep.
C.) the calamity of making the wrong choice
yep.
D.) His Second Coming
yep.
E.) Deliverance only for those abiding in the Son
yep.
SAME Message that Began in Genesis and runs thru the Bible unto Revelation.
yep.
Yourself, @Fitzpatrick and @civic need to recieve the admonition of the LORD being shared with you from @The Rogue Tomato
So Rogue is the final authority on biblical truth?
 
Yep.

Yep.

yep.

yep.

yep.

yep.

So Rogue is the final authority on biblical truth?

You know as well as i do that "all scripture is given for our admonition" = for us who have laid hold of Salvation.

Just as you pointed out Psalm 2 to me = Thank You and fully received from you my Brother

@The Rogue Tomato has been sharing the precise scriptures on the LORD's Second Coming as we wait for Him.
 
You know as well as i do that "all scripture is given for our admonition" = for us who have laid hold of Salvation.

Just as you pointed out Psalm 2 to me = Thank You and fully received from you my Brother

@The Rogue Tomato has been sharing the precise scriptures on the LORD's Second Coming as we wait for Him.
The irony is....
What Rogue posts as support for the purported post trib rapture, I, and those who hold to the Pretrib rapture, see as supporting the Pretrib rapture.

So, by all means, keep going.
You're only bolstering the Pretrib rapture view.
 
The irony is....
What Rogue posts as support for the purported post trib rapture, I, and those who hold to the Pretrib rapture, see as supporting the Pretrib rapture.

So, by all means, keep going.
You're only bolstering the Pretrib rapture view.
lol

No one has ever posted a 'pre-trib' rapture verse.

$1,000.00 Reward for the person who can find just one verse that declares any of the following:

a.) "the LORD will rapture His Church BEFORE His Second Coming"
b.) "the Saints/Church/Believers" will be pre-trib raptured BEFORE the coming of the final Antichrist"
c.) "the remaining Saints will be pre-trib raptured BEFORE the Resurrection of those in Christ"
 
The doctrine of Amillennialism was formulated by Augustine of Hippo (354-430) around 400 AD, four centuries after the birth of Jesus Christ. (Think about how long that it for a second. The USA hasn’t even been a country for 250 years!) ‘Amillennialism’ literally means “no millennium” and unsurprisingly maintains that there will be no literal thousand-year reign of Christ on earth before the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth, both of which are plainly detailed in Revelation 20-22.

Incredibly, this doctrine dares to suggest that we are already living in the Millennium; in fact, we’ve been supposedly living in it since the resurrection of Christ! Tell me, does it seem like Jesus has been reigning on earth for the last two thousand years? Does it appear like the devil has been bound up in the Abyss since Jesus’ resurrection in the 1st century? Of course not, the teaching is simply unbiblical and no sound student of the Scriptures would embrace the doctrine by simply reading the bible.

Even more incredible, Amillennialism teaches that we are simultaneously in both the Millennium and the 7-year Tribulation (!), the latter of which is chronicled in Revelation 6-19. Augustine’s reasoning was that the number 7 is symbolic and represents the period of time from the death/resurrection of Christ to his Second Coming. For those not in the know, the Tribulation is the 7-year period at the end of this age where God’s wrath will be poured out on the Earth wherein one quarter of the planet’s populace will perish followed by one-third of the rest (Revelation 6:8 & Revelation 9:18). Needless to say, no such calamity of this scope has happened since the ascension of Christ. Why? Simple: We’re not in the Tribulation as Amillennialism claims.

The only way Amillennialism can be accepted and perpetuated is by persuading Christian disciples through indoctrination in church or cemetery, I mean seminary. I repeat, believers would never see Amillennialism or accept it by merely reading/studying their Bibles. However, once disciples accept the idea that Amillennialism is unquestionable orthodoxy their studies of the scriptures will naturally be tainted and biased by their acceptance of this false doctrine; in other words, they’ll read the scriptures pre-supposing Amillennialism to be true, not freely or at face value, as is natural.

By contrast, when one studies the Bible free of such presuppositions, taking it simply for what it says, it isn’t difficult to see the error of Amillennialism.

The word ‘orthodox’ literally means “correct view.” What we determine to be orthodox Christian beliefs must be clearly and consistently taught in Scripture. In other words, if a doctrine is truly orthodox – that is, a “correct view” essential to Christian truth – it shouldn’t be necessary to engage in bizarre theological mumbo jumbo to prove its authenticity, like “spiritualizing” plain-as-day passages, which is what has to be done in order to “prove” Amillennialism.

The only way people who support Amillennialism can justify this doctrine is by convincing people that the Bible doesn’t really mean what it clearly says, which is that there will be a 7-year Tribulation period at the end of this age, then the devil will be bound up for a thousand years while Jesus Christ reigns on earth assisted by the resurrected saints (Revelation 20:1-6). To prove these plain truths one doesn’t have to resort to unjustified “spiritualizing” of the Scriptures, as is the case with Amillennialism. These truths can be discovered or proven simply by freely reading the Bible unhindered by foreign presuppositions.

How did a doctrine like Amillennialism come to be considered Christian orthodoxy when it’s so clearly unscriptural? The reason is that there’s another basis besides Holy Scripture used to determine the content of orthodoxy, and that is tradition. When people speak of Christian tradition they’re usually referring to religious literature, creeds and councils from the Patristic Age, or “late antiquity,” which extended from the 4th to the 8th centuries and includes Augustine’s advocacy of Amillennialism, as well as other errors. Augustine was the most prominent and influential “Church father” of this period. Christian tradition is also derived from other eras, including the later medieval, Reformation and post-Reformation eras. The very fact that Christian tradition is historically cumulative testifies that the worldwide invisible Church is in an ongoing state of reform; in other words, Christendom is not in bondage to historical tradition.

For important details on Amillennialism compared with the other views of the Millennium see this article by David Reagan, which features helpful diagrams. It contains vital information every believer should know about end-time events as prophesied in the Scriptures.


Why Am I Coming Down So Hard On Amillennialism?


Answer: Not just because Amillennialism is so grossly unscriptural, but because of the immense damage it has done to the body of Christ and our understanding of eschatology ever since it was concocted. (Eschatology, if you’re not aware, is the biblical study of end times events). For instance, to this day genuine believers all over the globe believe that when a person dies he/she either goes to Heaven to sit on a cloud playing a harp forever or goes to Hell to eternally roast in fiery torment. That’s it. If you think either of these is wholly true then Amillennialism has had a negative impact on YOU. Unfortunately, most unbelievers think this is what the Bible actually teaches; and most unseasoned believers as well. Why? Because of Augustine’s false doctrine of Amillennialism and the Roman Church’s official embracing of it in 431 AD at the Council of Ephesus. http://fountainoflifetm.com/2019/03/11/amillennialism-what-is-it-whats-wrong-with-it/

Thankfully, as with any erroneous belief, the truth will set us free (John 8:31-32).

The promised literal kingdom on earth—David’s—was what James and John’s mother referred to in Matthew 20:21. And just before Christ ascended to Heaven after His resurrection, this kingdom was still on the minds of the disciples when they asked, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Notice that the Lord didn’t ridicule them by asking something like, “Where did you ever get an idea like that?” No, it was legitimate for them to believe that this earthly kingdom would take place. Rather, He simply reminded them that it was not for them to know exactly when; that was God’s business. They were to concentrate on obeying the Great Commission after Jesus was gone to Heaven and on occupying until He returned, just as we believers still have the responsibility to do today.

Christ’s literal kingdom was prophesied in Jeremiah 23: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (vv. 5, 6). This is a promise, and it has yet to come to pass. If prophetic passages like these do not mean Christ’s millennial (1,000-year) reign, they are meaningless.

hope this helps !!!

The name Amillenialism is a misnomer. Amillenialism actually holds to a millenium not at Christs advent but before than as Christ reigns in heaven over his church
  • [Rev 1:16 NASB20] 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
  • [Rev 2:16 NASB20] 16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.
  • [Rev 19:15, 21 NASB20] 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. ... 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
So we should expect Jesus to have a sharp sword sticking out of His mouth during this 1000 year reign, right? If Revelation 20-22 is 100% literal, then Revelation 19 should be 100% literal as well (since the chapter divisions were added to the scroll later).

“Augustine's unbiblical doctrine of Amillennialism”​

You tend to be quick to drop the accusation of “unbiblical” (just an observation).
The name is unfortunate as Amillenialist do not hold there is no millenial reign of christ. They just hold his reign isv from heaven and it is over the church

this passage precludes a literal reign of Christ on earth

1 Corinthians 15:22–55 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Christ reign is while he is putting down his enemies . The last enemy is death. It is defeated at Christ's return. The kingdom is then handed over to the father

this passage does likewise showing the destruction of this old earth at Christs advent

2 Peter 3:7–13 (KJV 1900) — 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

also to be considered

Matthew 25:31–46 (KJV 1900) — 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

When Christ returns he judges all with some going into eternal punishment and others eternal lifei
 
lol

No one has ever posted a 'pre-trib' rapture verse.

$1,000.00 Reward for the person who can find just one verse that declares any of the following:

a.) "the LORD will rapture His Church BEFORE His Second Coming"
b.) "the Saints/Church/Believers" will be pre-trib raptured BEFORE the coming of the final Antichrist"
c.) "the remaining Saints will be pre-trib raptured BEFORE the Resurrection of those in Christ"
Actually, we all have. Repeatedly.
You just view them from your own interpretation.
So, I'd say you owe each of us dozens of thousands of dollars.
Since however it's clear you'll only justify yourself, I won't be holding my breath.
 
Actually, we all have. Repeatedly.
You just view them from your own interpretation.
So, I'd say you owe each of us dozens of thousands of dollars.
Since however it's clear you'll only justify yourself, I won't be holding my breath.
I view all scriptures from the only Viewpoint that has been Authorized.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

"And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

"Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar."

"
 
Actually, we all have. Repeatedly.
You just view them from your own interpretation.
So, I'd say you owe each of us dozens of thousands of dollars.
Since however it's clear you'll only justify yourself, I won't be holding my breath.
Nope not one that actually mentions a pretrib rapture
 
I view all scriptures from the only Viewpoint that has been Authorized.
Yet have you ever noticed that you and those who hold your views pick/post only certain verses to corroborate your expressly stated views, while rejecting or claiming the verses we post ONLY corroborate the view you accept?
But when we post the passages we view as corroborating the pre-trib view, you go off claiming we're wrong and only your authority is right...
So, the only thing you're achieving is demonstrating we're closer to the truth than you want us to know.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
😎
Why yes!
yes it is! A lot more reliable than you or anyone else.

"And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
This is where I'd absolutely love to be allowed to post gifs. I'd post the one of the French chef, kissing his fingertips, as he pulls his hand away, saying- c'est magnifique!

"Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar."
And again!

What you apparently miss is that we're all reading the same Bible and see it differently.

The teachers I sat under at Calvary Chapel taught us... (That was back in the late 70's, early 80's.)
There are several different views of eschatology.
The 3 primary views are......
Premillennialism, post-millennialism, and Amillenialism.

Within each are the following details....
And the corroborating Scripture for each is.....
Here at Calvary Chapel we hold to the Premillennialism view and this is why.....
The problems with Amillenialism and post-millenialism are.....
and scriptures ignored, or not taken into account to support the other views are....

Then, within Premillennialism are three dominant views...
Pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib.
Scripture supporting each view are.....

We hold to the Pre-trib view and this is why.....

Problems with the other two views are.... and scriptures ignored, or not taken into account to support the other views are....

Thus, the basis for the Premillennial, Pre-trib rapture are .....

So, while I actually do appreciate your rejecting what is pretty obvious to me, I have heard many times people claiming that the views you espouse. Indeed, some have been from highly respected theologians. And those whom I regard in numerous other theological disciplines.
 
Yet have you ever noticed that you and those who hold your views pick/post only certain verses to corroborate your expressly stated views, while rejecting or claiming the verses we post ONLY corroborate the view you accept?
But when we post the passages we view as corroborating the pre-trib view, you go off claiming we're wrong and only your authority is right...
So, the only thing you're achieving is demonstrating we're closer to the truth than you want us to know.


😎
Why yes!
yes it is! A lot more reliable than you or anyone else.


This is where I'd absolutely love to be allowed to post gifs. I'd post the one of the French chef, kissing his fingertips, as he pulls his hand away, saying- c'est magnifique!


And again!


What you apparently miss is that we're all reading the same Bible and see it differently.

The teachers I sat under at Calvary Chapel taught us... (That was back in the late 70's, early 80's.)
There are several different views of eschatology.
The 3 primary views are......
Premillennialism, post-millennialism, and Amillenialism.

Within each are the following details....
And the corroborating Scripture for each is.....
Here at Calvary Chapel we hold to the Premillennialism view and this is why.....
The problems with Amillenialism and post-millenialism are.....
and scriptures ignored, or not taken into account to support the other views are....

Then, within Premillennialism are three dominant views...
Pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib.
Scripture supporting each view are.....

We hold to the Pre-trib view and this is why.....

Problems with the other two views are.... and scriptures ignored, or not taken into account to support the other views are....

Thus, the basis for the Premillennial, Pre-trib rapture are .....

So, while I actually do appreciate your rejecting what is pretty obvious to me, I have heard many times people claiming that the views you espouse. Indeed, some have been from highly respected theologians. And those whom I regard in numerous other theological disciplines.
All of us must (SEE 'us' in 'must') believe the SAME Truth spoken by the LORD, the Apostles and the Prophets.
Christians who hold to 'pre-trib' is only because they have been told, REPEATEDLY, to do so by self-promoted prophets.
If you elevate the words of Christ above all other voices, you will Hear Him saying:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
 
All of us must (SEE 'us' in 'must') believe the SAME Truth spoken by the LORD, the Apostles and the Prophets.
Christians who hold to 'pre-trib' is only because they have been told, REPEATEDLY, to do so by self-promoted prophets.
If you elevate the words of Christ above all other voices, you will Hear Him saying:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Excellent, Amen. Matthew 24 spells out the chronology perfectly, and when you combine it with Revelation 6 and 7, it is abundantly clear.
 
Excellent, Amen. Matthew 24 spells out the chronology perfectly, and when you combine it with Revelation 6 and 7, it is abundantly clear.
Revelation repeats the chronology of Matt ch24 = as does the entire scriptures!

Going out to visit my son in Oregon - Please pray for the Power of the Holy Spirit to be upon my wife and i and that HE ministers thru us to my son Zachary.

Thank You

P.S. @civic
 
I should add that one of the worst misinterpretations of scripture is how pre-trib views this:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

YLT (preferred) 7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way,

Pre-trib misinterprets "he" to mean the Holy Spirit, and therefore assumes the the way "he" is taken out of the way is the pre-trib rapture of all believers.

There are several things wrong with this interpretation. For one thing, if all the Christians were raptured 7 years before Jesus returns, where do these people come from? "a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues" appear "out of the great tribulation" immediately after Jesus returns in glory?

More important, Daniel identifies "he" as Michael the archangel. There is an unfortunate translation issue here:

12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise.

The Hebrew translated "will arise" also means "will stand still", or in military terms, "stand down". That's the only way the next verse makes sense:

"And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;" (The GREAT TRIBULATION)

If the great tribulation happens after Michael "arises" to fight, then Michael isn't much of an archangel. But if the great tribulation happens after Michael stands down, then it makes perfect sense. Therefore it is Michael who is currently restraining and will be taken out of the way.
 
All of us must (SEE 'us' in 'must') believe the SAME Truth spoken by the LORD, the Apostles and the Prophets.
I'd like to think so, but Your existence is proof that's not true.
And it's obvious that you see my existence as proof that it's not true, so the only thing you have remaining is that me and my kind must be frauds.

Christians who hold to 'pre-trib' is only because they have been told, REPEATEDLY, to do so by self-promoted prophets.
you are more than welcome to adhere to that opinion.
i have another one....
something that Jesus said, and actually died and rose again to ensure was possible.

Joh 13:34-35 WEB 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”




If you elevate the words of Christ above all other voices, you will Hear Him saying:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Never thought otherwise.

You should read Revelation 19.
We refer to it as the second coming.

Ironically, you have just demonstrated the point I made previously.

You do what we refer to as putting all your eggs in a single basket.

There are 31,102 verses in the Bible.
Your posts and comments make it seem like there's only a couple dozen at best.

And considering that it's written in Psalms 40, and Hebrews 10, as well as alluded to in John 5,
In the volume of the book it is written of me...

I'm reminded that it's absolutely imperative that we take the whole counsel of God to heart.
 
I should add that one of the worst misinterpretations of scripture is how pre-trib views this:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

YLT (preferred) 7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way,

Pre-trib misinterprets "he" to mean the Holy Spirit, and therefore assumes the the way "he" is taken out of the way is the pre-trib rapture of all believers.

There are several things wrong with this interpretation. For one thing, if all the Christians were raptured 7 years before Jesus returns, where do these people come from? "a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues" appear "out of the great tribulation" immediately after Jesus returns in glory?

More important, Daniel identifies "he" as Michael the archangel. There is an unfortunate translation issue here:

12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise.

The Hebrew translated "will arise" also means "will stand still", or in military terms, "stand down". That's the only way the next verse makes sense:

"And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;" (The GREAT TRIBULATION)

If the great tribulation happens after Michael "arises" to fight, then Michael isn't much of an archangel. But if the great tribulation happens after Michael stands down, then it makes perfect sense. Therefore it is Michael who is currently restraining and will be taken out of the way.

Do you have anything more to substantiate your belief that it's not actually the Holy Spirit who no longer restrains, because he removes the bride of Christ, whom he sealed?
 
I'd like to think so, but Your existence is proof that's not true.
And it's obvious that you see my existence as proof that it's not true, so the only thing you have remaining is that me and my kind must be frauds.


you are more than welcome to adhere to that opinion.
i have another one....
something that Jesus said, and actually died and rose again to ensure was possible.

Joh 13:34-35 WEB 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”





Never thought otherwise.

You should read Revelation 19.
We refer to it as the second coming.

Ironically, you have just demonstrated the point I made previously.

You do what we refer to as putting all your eggs in a single basket.

There are 31,102 verses in the Bible.
Your posts and comments make it seem like there's only a couple dozen at best.

And considering that it's written in Psalms 40, and Hebrews 10, as well as alluded to in John 5,
In the volume of the book it is written of me...

I'm reminded that it's absolutely imperative that we take the whole counsel of God to heart.
@SteveB says: "And it's obvious that you see my existence as proof that it's not true, so the only thing you have remaining is that me and my kind must be frauds."
Never say this my Brother.
***************************************************************************************

We are the 'us' in 'MusT'

The only 'fraud' that we commit is when we add to God's words what HE never said, or, we ignore/subtract from HIS words.

Peace and Blessing to you @SteveB

LOOK at the word 'MUST'

Messiah
Urgent
Salvation
Trust
 
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