The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Tribulation and wrath are two different things. We will have tribulation. We are not appointed to wrath.
Augustine's unbiblical doctrine of Amillennialism
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Fitzpatrick
Active member
I never thought about that but it makes a lot of sense. It sure looks like we're there, We could be out of here at any time. But we still need to keep the faith.I know that sounds ominous, but it’s true. Hardly anyone ever talks about this one That predicts the generation that was born in 1948 will not pass away before the rapture happens. I'll try to share it with you to the best of my ability.
The Rapture—the sudden catching away of all believers in Jesus to heaven—is the initial event of the end times and that the Rapture has already happened. That with the occurrence of the Rapture, the prophetic trigger will have been pulled. That there’s no stopping the series of end-time events that will ensue.
If that view is correct, and I’m convinced it is, you may be reading these words after the Rapture. But you may be reading this before these foretold events occur. Or you may be reading these words and reeling in the immediate aftermath of the mass vanishing. Or you may be reading these words several months or even years after the vanishing. The events that will happen to those who are part of the terminal generation when time is short, very short, and there is no way to avoid what’s coming.
I know that sounds ominous, but it’s true. At this point there is no reason to tiptoe around the truth. If you’re reading these words after the disappearance of millions of people (the Rapture), you are part of the generation that will experience a series of cascading calamities unlike anything in the annals of human history. The world is on the precipice of a plunge into a time of unparalleled trouble. Jesus spoke of this terminal generation two millennia ago when He said, “Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened”
What generation was he talking about? Jesus tells us right here:
From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
Matthew 24:32–34.
Verse 32 is talking about
Though Israel’s statehood was proclaimed on May 14, 1948 – which falls, this year, by the Hebrew calendar, on April 19th – its actual birth, as these things go, naturally took longer. Its imminence, however, was a foregone conclusion when the British, having controlled Palestine since 1920, announced their intention to withdraw from the Mandate on May 15, 1948. Noting, too, that “after 2,000 years of conflict, another twelve months will not be considered a long delay,” they tossed the country’s future to the United Nations to decide in the fall of 1947. This the U.N. did, voting on November 29, 1947- with the U.S. support of a Jewish state.
To understand this you have to go back and look at why Jesus cursed the fig tree.
Jesus enters Jerusalem amid exultation from the masses gathered for Passover. In the morning, as he travels from Bethany, he spots a fig tree “in leaf.” At this point in late spring, most fig trees haven’t developed mature fruit (Mark 11:13). But this particular tree draws Jesus’s attention because it already has a full covering of leaves. It’s an early bloomer. Its foliage signals that it should have early figs.
With that expectation, Jesus inspects the tree. He is immediately disappointed. All leaves, no fruit. All expectation, no satisfaction.
In a shocking turn, Jesus curses the tree and makes it wither from the roots, never to yield fruit again. We are taken aback; this seems stunningly out of character for Jesus, the child-welcomer, compassionate healer, and storm-calmer.
Read Matthew 24:32–34 Again and you'll see the parallel.
What is the fig tree prophecy? | GotQuestions.org
What is the fig tree prophecy? How can the fig tree prophecy help us to recognize signs of the end times?www.gotquestions.org
Fitzpatrick
Active member
Sure there is... just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It is nowhere in the Bible, which is why I don't believe it.
SteveB
Well-known member
Indeed.
What makes you think that the tribulation period is merely a rough spot of human history and not the wrath of God on a Christ rejecting world, as well as the final period of history for Israel?
So... how about describing what you think the 7 year tribulation period is.
Fitzpatrick
Active member
You may have tribulation. But the church will be out of here.
- The Rapture will call the Church to meet Christ in the air before the Tribulation begins.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Because the Bible delineates between the two. In Matthew 24, Jesus says there will be great tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the celestial signs occur and Jesus returns. That is the signal that Jesus is returning, after which the wrath begins.
Matthew 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
== Revelation 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Matthew 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn
== Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no ]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The Great Tribulation has been cut short, and with the return of Jesus, the wrath is about to begin. But first, the 144,000 are sealed to be protected from God's wrath (Revelation 7). At the same time, the rapture occurs:
Matthew 24:31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Here are the elect from the four winds:
== Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Then the Day of the Lord's wrath begins.
Fitzpatrick
Active member
The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth.
A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation.
It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Couple of problems, first of all it's not a falsehood. Just because you do not believe it doesn't make it a falsehood.
Then here's a list of what Jesus did say about believing.
The LORD Jesus emphatically said it is a falsehood - several times.
The Apostles also said it was a falsehood.
That is why you are unable to find a single verse of "pre-trib" rapture.
If you can, i'll pay $1,000.00
If you cannot, you owe me $1,000.00
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DavidTree
Well-known member
CLUE #1 - God's Wrath is NOT poured out in Revelation until after the Two Witnesses complete their ministry.
DavidTree
Well-known member
CLUE #2 - God will NEVER leave a single Lamb of His behind.
You should try BELIEVING the words of Christ and the Apostles.
If you do, you will deliver yourself from the many christian false prophets.
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SteveB
Well-known member
Seems like you're confused about this...
The wrath of God isn't merely his violence against a Christ rejecting world.
Look at Romans 1:18-32.
Specifically vs 28.
Rom 1:28 WEB Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
God's wrath STARTS with merely giving them what they want.
To be left alone.
The wrath of God already happens. Right now on those who refuse to engage YHVH on his terms and conditions.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Well then, God's Wrath has already BEGUN and you and i are still here....................there YAH-GO
SteveB
Well-known member
Two distinct actions.
Not entirely clear about the specifics, but it is possible for unbelievers to turn God off, so he gives them what they want.
The tribulation period is a time when God focuses on individuals and gives the world (on a global scale) what they want.
Psalms 2 is a good picture of that.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Absolutely True.
The Saints will March on thru the Tribulation Period just as the LORD and the Apostles and the Prophets said they would.
SteveB
Well-known member
That would explain why so many tribulation saints are murdered for his name's sake.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's a lot of saints for such a short period.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb
Who are they, John asks?
Rev 7:14 And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation
That sounds a lot like what happens AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION in Matthew 24:
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
SteveB
Well-known member
Based on Revelation 6,
Rev 6:9-11 WEB 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had. 10 They cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.
A lot of people who get saved after the harpadzo will be killed by the world.
out of the Tribulation...
I'd say they die during the tribulation period.
from the Apostolic Bible Polyglot.
Rev 7:14 ABP και And ειπον I said αυτώ to him, κύριε μου O my Lord, συ you οίδας know. και And είπέ he said μοι to me, ούτοί These εισιν are οι the ones ερχόμενοι coming εκ from out of της the θλίψεως [ 2 affliction της μεγάλης 1 great], και and έπλυναν they washed τας στολάς αυτών their robes, και and ελεύκαναν whitened αυτας them εν in τω the αίματι blood του of the αρνίου lamb.
From out of....
Strong's concordance.
G1537 search
Original: ἐκ ἐξ
Transliteration: ek ex
Phonetic: ek
Thayer Definition:
out of, from, by, away from
Origin: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause
TDNT entry: literal or figurative
Part(s) of speech: Preposition
Strong's Definition: A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in,. .. ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion .
From the OGNT.
Rev 7:14 OGNT Καὶ Kai ke and εἴρηκα eirēka iyriyka to say αὐτῷ autō afto to him· Κύριέ Kyrie kiyriye lord μου mou mu of me, σὺ sy siy you οἶδας oidas iyðas to know. Καὶ Kai ke and εἶπέν eipen iypen to say μοι moi miy to me· ¬Οὗτοί Houtoi utiy these εἰσιν eisin iysiyn to be οἱ hoi iy who ἐρχόμενοι erchomenoi erkhomeniy to come ἐκ ek ek out of τῆς tēs tiys the θλίψεως thlipseōs θliypseos affliction τῆς tēs tiys the μεγάλης megalēs megaliys great ¬καὶ kai ke and ἔπλυναν eplynan epliynan to wash τὰς tas tas the στολὰς stolas stolas robes αὐτῶν autōn afton their ¬καὶ kai ke and ἐλεύκαναν eleukanan elefkanan to bleach αὐτὰς autas aftas them ἐν en en in τῷ tō to the αἵματι haimati ematiy blood τοῦ tou tu the Ἀρνίου Arniou arniyu lamb.
The Greek appears to be saying that they came out of the great tribulation, dying during it.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You're using the same nonsensical argumenta as the lady at my old church who complained to the pastor that my class was taking away their blessed hope of a pre-trib rapture. You two must read the same books. Hal Lindsay books? Left Behind?
I've provided a ton of very clear scripture to show that the rapture occurs when Jesus returns OPENLY, AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, when a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes appear in heaven. If you want to believe in the cowardly AWOL secret rapture before the nonexistent "seven year tribulation period" where people mysteriously disappear, enjoy. I shake the dust off my feet against you.
SteveB
Well-known member
sounds like you're saying you know everything.
never read them.
my views were formed long before they were written.
truth be told, i attend Calvary Chapel and have since 1977.
you provided a ton of very clear scriptures that show me that there's a pre-trib harpadzo.
Oh... wait.... that must mean that what you see as post-trib, i see as pre-trib.
Oops!
Yeah, your rant and mockery and contempt demonstrates that you don't actually understand what you're talking about.
Thank you for the compliment.
I'll stick with the Bible.
