Are we told to worship Jesus or are we told to worship God?

[Wrangler]

Peter (recorded by Luke) applies a text about YHWH from the OT in reference to Jesus.

Appeal to Diversion. So what? 1st you bring up Acts 2:21 as the definitive trinitarian statement. I ask if your eyes are open about the reference to YHWH in Acts 2:21. Rather than answer this simple question, you just change the subject.

Philip told Nathaniel that Jesus is the one Moses told us about. i.e., not God incarnate.

 

[Fred]

Appeal to Diversion.

Appeal to the facts that refute your false teaching.

So of course you would call it a diversion.

 

[Johann]

Peter (recorded by Luke) applies a text about YHWH from the OT in reference to Jesus.

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH

The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'

Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'

* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (𝔓46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

John 8:58

“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (John 8:58)
הֵשִׁיב לָהֶם יֵשׁוּעַ׃ ״אָמֵן אָמֵן אֲנִי אוֹמֵר לָכֶם, בְּטֶרֶם הֱיוֹת אַבְרָהָם, אֲנִי הוּא.<\p>
"So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." The lead up to his statement is this:

“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)

Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).

So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.

John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'

The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "

And Isaiah 43:10 reads

““You are My witnesses,” declares יהוה, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He (ἐγώ εἰμι)...”
Compare this with the words of Jesus to John in Revelation 1:7:

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am (ἐγώ εἰμι) the first and the last..."
Revelation 22:13, 16

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Also Isaiah 43:13, 46:4, 48:12. Isaiah 52:6 is interesting because there יהוה says:

"Therefore my people will know my name in that day. For I am (ἐγώ εἰμι/אני הוא), behold I, the one speaking."

 

[Fred]

Several times as do the rest of the Apostles in their writings.

Which gives those who deny the Lord Jesus is God even more reason to abandon their false jesus.

 

[Fred]

There are many OT references re Yeshua as YHVH-many.

Correct.

See my previous post.

 

[Wrangler]

Appeal to the facts that refute your false teaching.

So of course you would call it a diversion.

Now, it is you who is dodging Acts 2:21.

 

[Fred]

Now, it is you who is dodging Acts 2:21.

Nope.
You have not refuted the evidence I supplied.

Keep hiding.

 

[MatthewG]

Posting Scripture is one thing, saying what it means to you personally is another thing hence the questions. Questions are used to clarify meaning and understanding so that we are both on the same page.

Your right, just like you posting scripture, when you have scriptures that go in against them, that is why people complain about contradictions and stuff.


You have one scripture says that Jesus is equal to God, and you have another scripture that says Jesus not above the Father, you have find harmony and that is by and through the spirit.


It doesn't matter how many scriptures you post, it doesn't matter, the scripture that I shared with you last and I will again is in context of what you were trying to say.

I don't just foolishly accept what people have to offer me, I can consider it but doesn't matter if it defies their own belief or whatever you have to make the decision for yourself.

 

[Rowan]

As has been shown in this thread it’s one thing to show from Scripture that Jesus possesses divine attributes; it’s still another to demonstrate that Jesus actually claimed to be God. If Jesus said it I believe it. The evidence rests on the proven historical reliability of the Bible, which supports the Bible’s claim that it’s divinely inspired and inerrant.

If If we can't show Jesus affirming His deity from the Bible, then anything we post could be suspect. Christians could be charged with misinterpreting Scripture, and the New Testament authors with misunderstanding Jesus’ identity and mission. On the other hand, if Jesus did claim to be God, and if the Bible supports this claim by demonstrating He possesses attributes of deity, then surely we have sufficient evidence that Jesus is God.

Since the Bible is God’s Word, then not only what the authors of Scripture say about Jesus must be true, but what Jesus Himself says must also be true. And Jesus does claim divine status in numerous ways.

Jesus makes several explicit statements concerning His deity that can't be ignored:

“I and My Father are one” John 10:30

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him". John 14:7

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father” John 14:9

 

[MatthewG]

Yea, that's what IDOLATRY is, putting something we make (including the product of our own minds) as a substitute for giving God his glory.

It's fascinating that there is not trinity verse*, there is no "Jesus is God incarnate" verse. Yet, trinitarians make believe it is the central message of the Bible. There is no "God the Son." There is no "God the Holy Spirit." There is only "God the Father." The complete absence in God's word of what they claim is true means nothing to trinitarians.

They pretend the same God who set the standard in all of human experience of explicit communication - writing his laws in stone - can only communicate about Jesus' nature is ambiguous implications. (Then they deny all the implications that Jesus is not God, like using God compared to Jesus in so many verses). It's just ridiculous that any intelligent person can believe the inherently contradictory doctrine nowhere to be found in Scripture.


* There simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

I completely agree, love my fellow brothers and sister who have that belief though you know? I have not met very many people who even share this belief exactly, I haven't sat down and let them explain it to me...

I just go about life, having faith in the Father, and that Jesus did everything and worship Him, and giving praise to him and even his son because he did so much for us you know?

 

[MatthewG]

As has been shown in this thread it’s one thing to show from Scripture that Jesus possesses divine attributes; it’s still another to demonstrate that Jesus actually claimed to be God. If Jesus said it I believe it. The evidence rests on the proven historical reliability of the Bible, which supports the Bible’s claim that it’s divinely inspired and inerrant.


If If we can't show Jesus affirming His deity from the Bible, then anything we post could be suspect. Christians could be charged with misinterpreting Scripture, and the New Testament authors with misunderstanding Jesus’ identity and mission. On the other hand, if Jesus did claim to be God, and if the Bible supports this claim by demonstrating He possesses attributes of deity, then surely we have sufficient evidence that Jesus is God.

Since the Bible is God’s Word, then not only what the authors of Scripture say about Jesus must be true, but what Jesus Himself says must also be true. And Jesus does claim divine status in numerous ways.

Jesus makes several explicit statements concerning His deity that can't be ignored:

“I and My Father are one” John 10:30

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him". John 14:7

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father” John 14:9

All those scriptures are viable and expounded on after the Gospels.

John 1:1,

and the Word was God, ; 14 - was made Flesh - that Word that was God was dwelling the Flesh of the messiah who made his own choices to do the Fathers will.

 

[Johann]

Appeal to Diversion. So what? 1st you bring up Acts 2:21 as the definitive trinitarian statement. I ask if your eyes are open about the reference to YHWH in Acts 2:21. Rather than answer this simple question, you just change the subject.

Philip told Nathaniel that Jesus is the one Moses told us about. i.e., not God incarnate.

In Joel Κύριος is undoubtedly used of the Lord Jehovah, and the word is here transferred to Christ.

In its bearing on our Lord’s Divinity this fact is of primary importance, for it is not merely that the early Christians addressed their Ascended Lord so many times by the same name which is used of Jehovah in the LXX—although it is certainly remarkable that in 1 Thess. the name is applied to Christ more than twenty times—but that they did not hesitate to refer to Him the attributes and the prophecies which the great prophets of the Jewish nation had associated with the name of Jehovah, Zahn, Skizzen aus dem Leben der alten Kirche, pp. 8, 10, 16 (1894), and for the force of the expression, ἐπικ. τὸ ὄνομα, in 1Co_1:2, see Harnack, History of Dogma, i., p. 29, E.T.

Acts 2.21

 

[Rowan]

​

All those scriptures are viable and expounded on after the Gospels.

John 1:1,

and the Word was God, ; 14 - was made Flesh - that Word that was God was dwelling the Flesh of the messiah who made his own choices to do the Fathers will.

Jesus makes several explicit statements concerning His deity that can't be ignored:

“I and My Father are one” John 10:30

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him". John 14:7

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father” John 14:9

So you believe the above scriptures weren't spoken by Jesus until after the gospels were written? Try this for on for size.

individuals who appeal to the Bible contextually for insights and principles for knowing and pleasing Jesus.​

 

[MatthewG]

​

Jesus makes several explicit statements concerning His deity that can't be ignored:

“I and My Father are one” John 10:30

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him". John 14:7

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father” John 14:9

So you believe the above scriptures weren't spoken by Jesus until after the gospels were written? Try this for on for size.

individuals who appeal to the Bible contextually for insights and principles for knowing and pleasing Jesus.​

I have no problems with those scriptures, the thing, there are considerable questions to what those things mean... Ya know?

I ain't worried about people looking at me suspiciously like - is he really a christian?

 

[Hosanna]

When I worship Jesus I am worshiping God.

 

[MatthewG]

When I worship Jesus I am worshiping God.

Thank you for sharing. You do whatever you feel you need to, its definitely not between me and you that is for sure. May Yahava bless you and all, and may your fellowship be with the Father and the Son.

 

[MatthewG]

Here is one Bible verse, in the very last chapter of the Revelation which to me was one of the final works finished by John the beloved that sent out before Yeshua had returned, and it states,

Revelation 22:9 But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”

Revelation 22:9 and he saith to me, 'See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Which in turn reminds me of Revelation 4, 5.

Which brings up the question, who was God to Jesus (by a fleshly manner)? He called him his Father.

Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the [a]hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [b]openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

 

[Johann]

When I worship Jesus I am worshiping God.

Good to hear from you,

 

[Hosanna]

I have no problems with those scriptures, the thing, there are considerable questions to what those things mean... Ya know?

I ain't worried about people looking at me suspiciously like - is he really a christian?

You shouldn't be worried about someone judging your salvation because it's not their job. The Bible even has a verse about it.

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

Considerable questions are what we're into when we're discussing God's word. They're like opinions everyone has one. Mormons for example look at God's word a lot differently than mainstream Christianity does.

My suggestion is to stop proclaiming you're not worried about what others think about you. When you insist you're not worried about something it's usually because you're worried about it. Just saying.

 

[Johann]

Here is one Bible verse, in the very last chapter of the Revelation which to me was one of the final works finished by John the beloved that sent out before Yeshua had returned, and it states,

Revelation 22:9 But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”

Revelation 22:9 and he saith to me, 'See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Which in turn reminds me of Revelation 4, 5.

Which brings up the question, who was God to Jesus (by a fleshly manner)? He called him his Father.

Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the [a]hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [b]openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

This has been thoroughly explained to you in Scriptures.