Are we told to worship Jesus or are we told to worship God?

[Johann]

I trust Jesus.

He said “Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, strength, soul, etc”

Jesus’ Equality and Identity with God

Jesus asserts his equality and identity with God in the face of blasphemy charges by the Jewish leaders. He is charged with making himself equal with God (John 5:16–47) and later for identifying himself with God (John 10:25–39).

His accusers threaten the penalty for blasphemy. In both cases, Jesus denies the charge on the grounds that he is speaking the truth, citing in support the plurality of witnesses required by Jewish law. In John 14:1 Jesus co-ordinates himself with God as the object of faith – “Believe in God; believe also in me.”

Similarly, like frames around a picture, John refers to him as “God” in John 1:18 at the start of his Gospel and has Thomas confessing him as “my Lord and my God” in John 20:28 at the end.

Paul’s characteristic name for Jesus Christ is “Lord” (kurios), the Greek word commonly used for YHWH (יהוה), the covenant name of God in the Old Testament.

By this pervasive use Paul shows he regards Jesus as having the status of God, without abridgement. He makes no attempt to explain or defend it, mentioning it so unselfconsciously that, as Hurtado comments, it entails its being everyday currency among the early Christians.

Paul’s letters testify to belief in the full deity of Jesus Christ as the basic axiom of the church not as a point of contention. This, Hurtado points out, is confirmed by the Aramaic acclamation in 1 Corinthians 16:22, marana tha (Lord, come!). Paul uses this in a Gentile context without explanation or translation, addressing Christ in a corporate, liturgical prayer, with the reverence shown to God.

Moreover, the roots of this prayer are Palestinian, widely familiar beyond its original source and probably pre-Pauline.7 Bauckham writes of “its very early origin.”8 Paul applies the divine name (YHWH) to Christ via kurios “without explanation or justification, suggesting that his readers were already familiar with the term and its connotation.” In Romans 9:5 it is likely that Paul expressly designates Jesus Christ as theos (God). Witherington writes of John that he “is willing to predicate of Jesus what he predicates of the Lord God, because he sees them as on the same level.”9

The author of Hebrews, too, in his argument for Christ’s supremacy, cites Psalm 45 to support the incarnate Son as possessing the status of God (Heb. 1:8–9). The Son is the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of his being. All angels are to worship him (Heb. 1:1-14). Since he is superior to the angels, Bauckham comments, “he is included in the unique identity of the one God.”10 Psalm 102, referring to the creator of the universe, is here applied directly to Christ. As T.F. Torrance puts it, Christ is “not just a sort of locum tenens, or a kind of ‘double’ for God in his absence, but the incarnate presence of Yahweh.”11

Furthermore, Jesus’ resurrection discloses that he is Lord, the deity of Christ becoming “the supreme truth of the Gospel … the central point of reference consistent with the whole sequence of events leading up to and beyond the crucifixion.”12 At the center of the New Testament message is the unbroken relation between the Son and the Father.13

 

[MatthewG]

You would agree Jesus is stating His equality with the Father right ?

I do, however he is not over his Father.

“Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility consider one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 2:1-13 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintai | New American Standard Bible

Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintai

bible.com

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus’ Equality and Identity with God

Jesus asserts his equality and identity with God in the face of blasphemy charges by the Jewish leaders. He is charged with making himself equal with God (John 5:16–47) and later for identifying himself with God (John 10:25–39).

His accusers threaten the penalty for blasphemy. In both cases, Jesus denies the charge on the grounds that he is speaking the truth, citing in support the plurality of witnesses required by Jewish law. In John 14:1 Jesus co-ordinates himself with God as the object of faith – “Believe in God; believe also in me.”

Similarly, like frames around a picture, John refers to him as “God” in John 1:18 at the start of his Gospel and has Thomas confessing him as “my Lord and my God” in John 20:28 at the end.

Paul’s characteristic name for Jesus Christ is “Lord” (kurios), the Greek word commonly used for YHWH (יהוה), the covenant name of God in the Old Testament.

By this pervasive use Paul shows he regards Jesus as having the status of God, without abridgement. He makes no attempt to explain or defend it, mentioning it so unselfconsciously that, as Hurtado comments, it entails its being everyday currency among the early Christians.

Paul’s letters testify to belief in the full deity of Jesus Christ as the basic axiom of the church not as a point of contention. This, Hurtado points out, is confirmed by the Aramaic acclamation in 1 Corinthians 16:22, marana tha (Lord, come!). Paul uses this in a Gentile context without explanation or translation, addressing Christ in a corporate, liturgical prayer, with the reverence shown to God.

Moreover, the roots of this prayer are Palestinian, widely familiar beyond its original source and probably pre-Pauline.7 Bauckham writes of “its very early origin.”8 Paul applies the divine name (YHWH) to Christ via kurios “without explanation or justification, suggesting that his readers were already familiar with the term and its connotation.” In Romans 9:5 it is likely that Paul expressly designates Jesus Christ as theos (God). Witherington writes of John that he “is willing to predicate of Jesus what he predicates of the Lord God, because he sees them as on the same level.”9

The author of Hebrews, too, in his argument for Christ’s supremacy, cites Psalm 45 to support the incarnate Son as possessing the status of God (Heb. 1:8–9). The Son is the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of his being. All angels are to worship him (Heb. 1:1-14). Since he is superior to the angels, Bauckham comments, “he is included in the unique identity of the one God.”10 Psalm 102, referring to the creator of the universe, is here applied directly to Christ. As T.F. Torrance puts it, Christ is “not just a sort of locum tenens, or a kind of ‘double’ for God in his absence, but the incarnate presence of Yahweh.”11

Furthermore, Jesus’ resurrection discloses that he is Lord, the deity of Christ becoming “the supreme truth of the Gospel … the central point of reference consistent with the whole sequence of events leading up to and beyond the crucifixion.”12 At the center of the New Testament message is the unbroken relation between the Son and the Father.13

????

 

[MatthewG]

More to the point of the OP, who are we told to worship? Thomas does not tell us to worship Jesus.

Youre right I never realized that before.

Jesus told us to worship the Father, that only true worshippers worship the Father - who is the only true God. John 4:23, 17:3.

Amen.

It is sad to see Jesus followers contradict the words of their lord. Such is the power of IDOLATRY.

Its just the mind of us human beings.

There are people who have high iq, some low iq, some are autistic, and some have been maligned through religous indoctrination.

 

[Johann]

????

I was going to show you the Imperative of giving Messiah His proper and due worship-but it is a waste of my precious time.
Don't respond.

 

[civic]

I do, however he is not over his Father.

“Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility consider one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 2:1-13 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintai | New American Standard Bible

Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintai

bible.com

What does Jesus mean when He said: believe also in Me ?

What did the pharisees mean when they said you being a man make yourself out to be equal with God ?

What did Paul mean when he said " Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality "

 

[MatthewG]

What does Jesus mean when He said: believe also in Me ?

What did the pharisees mean when they said you being a man make yourself out to be equal with God ?

What did Paul mean when he said " Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality "

Im not gonna keep going over it. I just posted the whole section about what your talking about. Consider that as your information not me.

 

[Johann]

What does Jesus mean when He said: believe also in Me ?

What did the pharisees mean when they said you being a man make yourself out to be equal with God ?

What did Paul mean when he said " Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality "

Ye believe ... believe also (pisteuete...kai pisteuete). So translated as present active indicative plural second person and present active imperative of pisteuō. The form is the same. Both may be indicative (ye believe ... and ye believe), both may be imperative (believe ... and believe or believe also), the first may be indicative (ye believe) and the second imperative (believe also), the first may be imperative (keep on believing) and the second indicative (and ye do believe, this less likely). Probably both are imperatives (Mar_11:22), “keep on believing in God and in me.”
RWP.

 

[MatthewG]

I was going to show you the Imperative of giving Messiah His proper and due worship-but it is a waste of my precious time.
Don't respond.

Okay. Im not worried about the documents of others, currently. Thank you for speaking for yourself, Jesus is my superior.

 

[Wrangler]

I was going to show you the Imperative of giving Messiah His proper and due worship-but it is a waste of my precious time.

Oh! Show me! Show me!

You know it cannot be done because there is no verse that says ANYTHING like this. So, all you got is eisegesis.

Aren't you the guy who said something about being obstinate?

 

[civic]

Ye believe ... believe also (pisteuete...kai pisteuete). So translated as present active indicative plural second person and present active imperative of pisteuō. The form is the same. Both may be indicative (ye believe ... and ye believe), both may be imperative (believe ... and believe or believe also), the first may be indicative (ye believe) and the second imperative (believe also), the first may be imperative (keep on believing) and the second indicative (and ye do believe, this less likely). Probably both are imperatives (Mar_11:22), “keep on believing in God and in me.”
RWP.

Yes a statement of equality in salvation.

 

[Fred]

Oh! Show me! Show me!

First, you have to open your eyes.

 

[civic]

Im not gonna keep going over it. I just posted the whole section about what your talking about. Consider that as your information not me.

Posting Scripture is one thing, saying what it means to you personally is another thing hence the questions. Questions are used to clarify meaning and understanding so that we are both on the same page.

 

[Johann]

Okay. Im not worried about the documents of others. Thank you for speaking for yourself, Jesus is my superior.

Mashiach is MORE than your "superior"-and if you don't want to read with discernment that is on you.
Brothers here are trying to help but you are in agreement with @Wrangler.

 

[Wrangler]

Its just the mind of us human beings.

There are people who have high iq, some low iq, some are autistic, and some have been maligned through religous indoctrination.

Yea, that's what IDOLATRY is, putting something we make (including the product of our own minds) as a substitute for giving God his glory.

It's fascinating that there is not trinity verse*, there is no "Jesus is God incarnate" verse. Yet, trinitarians make believe it is the central message of the Bible. There is no "God the Son." There is no "God the Holy Spirit." There is only "God the Father." The complete absence in God's word of what they claim is true means nothing to trinitarians.

They pretend the same God who set the standard in all of human experience of explicit communication - writing his laws in stone - can only communicate about Jesus' nature is ambiguous implications. (Then they deny all the implications that Jesus is not God, like using God compared to Jesus in so many verses). It's just ridiculous that any intelligent person can believe the inherently contradictory doctrine nowhere to be found in Scripture.


* There simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

 

[Wrangler]

First, you have to open your eyes.

Oh, the irony.

Not confused at all. Not one little bit. Let's examine Acts 2:21

But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. (NLT)

Trinitarians always want to assume any reference to lowercase-lord means capital-LORD. But Psalm 110:1 sets us straight.

The LORD said to my Lord (NLT)

"My lord" is Jesus, which is different from "the LORD" as REV puts it:

Yahweh’s declaration to my lord. (REV)

Therfore, capital-LORD in Acts 2:21 refers to YHWH and not Jesus, as you allege. So, is dispelled your deliberate obfuscation. Rather than admit the truth, I know you'll double down on your IDOLATRY.

Are your eyes open about the reference to YHWH in Acts 2:21?

 

[Fred]

Are your eyes open about the reference to YHWH in Acts 2:21?

Peter (recorded by Luke) applies a text about YHWH from the OT in reference to Jesus.

 

[civic]

Peter (recorded by Luke) applies a text about YHWH from the OT in reference to Jesus.

Several times as do the rest of the Apostles in their writings.

 

[Johann]

Peter (recorded by Luke) applies a text about YHWH from the OT in reference to Jesus.

There are many OT references re Yeshua as YHVH-many.

 

[Wrangler]

Mashiach is MORE than your "superior"

Everybody is more than just one thing.

The Bible describes Jesus as being our brother three times: Hebrews 2:11, Romans 8:29, and Mark 3:34-35. We all have superiors, except for Jesus' God.

The Lord's Prayer is how you know Jesus is not God nor does he claim to be God. He teaches us to pray to our father, as a brother, not to him or the trinity, implying he is one of "them." Jesus is one of us.

The way you know that is the whole purpose of Jesus resurrection was our proof that he is the "first fruit." If he was not a brother, a man like any other, then we would not have our proof and he would not be the first fruit, which means the first in a series of like. This is the way.