So HE manifested HIS perfect love for us by putting us under the effects of their choice to sin before we were even created....but that does not infringe our free will, sigh.
Are we Predestined?
- Thread starter TibiasDad
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TibiasDad
Active Member
God did not put humanity under the effects of sin, the first human did. Think of it as a flaw in the spiritual DNA. Every person born of Adam inherits that flaw that separates us from God. We will all sin at some point, we are all self-centered creatures from birth and that will show itself in time.
How are we infringed? God does not make us do anything; we do whatever we want to do. He doesn’t ultimately infringe upon our freedom, but allows us to accept or reject his authority and desires for us.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
If its open and unsettled the God is not omniscient.
If God has not determined the future, yet forsees it, then He is bound by His foreknowledge. Can He change what He forsees? If He coukd why not change it so everyone is saved as you love to claim He so wants to do but does not.
God does not have to infringe on your freedom to determine what you do with your freedom. Acts 4:27, 28 is a great example.
civic
Active Member
God says there are things that happen which have never crossed His mind.
atpollard
Active Member
What do you think that means?
God is not really OMNISCIENT???? OMNIPOTENT????
[We should probably look at the verse.]
No. Because the future is open and unsettled and God knows that. God is still omniscient.
But He knows what it will be.
atpollard
Active Member
Ummm ... the future is open and unsettled and I know that. So I am also omniscient?
civic
Active Member
Except you do not know where I will be on Friday at 3pm whereas God does.Ummm ... the future is open and unsettled and I know that. So I am also omniscient?
TibiasDad
Active Member
He is not bound by foreknowledge in any way; God chose to allow mankind to have freedom of choice and will, and he acts within that protocol willingly and purposefully. We all have a limited ability with those whom we know very well; we can know or predict how someone will respond in a certain circumstance and manipulate things to create that reaction. The arrogance of Herod and Pilate were used purposefully to achieve what God wanted, as if preparing a recipe to bake a cake. A+B will always equal C. If we can do that, why can’t God?
Jer 19:5 puts the matter to rest:
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Now if God has predetermined every act of man, how can something happen that ‘never entered his mind’?
Doug
That HE supposedly did NOT make us individuals with no racial sinfulness like HE did with the angels but supposedly instead chose to create us burdened by the effects of Adam's sin means HE chose to burden us with our enslavement to sins.
Why are we enslaved to sin in Adam if it was not how GOD willed us to be created!!!
Michael was not so burdened by Satan's fall, nor Gabriel etc, so why were we not created this way with an individual right to self determination NOT supposedly under the power of another's fall???
I know you cannot abide solving the doublethink of HIM being loving and holy yet creating sinners by rejecting the concept that HE created us sinful, suffering and under the sentence of death in Adam but your theology says just that, stubbornly standing against HIS revealed nature, sigh!!!!
A free will cannot be under a coercive power or constraint of another person's will when making the choice. Christ told us that to be a sinner was to be enslaved to sin. However you define enslavement it refers to an infringement of our free will, and your theology says GOD made us this way by having us to be created into Adam's sin when HE did not have to create us this way at all!
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Of course HE did: every sinner became enslaved to sin by their own free will decision ot rebel against HIM or HIS command...no one is enslaved to sin due to another's fall, and every sinner who is saved is freed from the consequences of their own choice to be enslaved to sin by HIS loving patience.
We agree on salvation, just not on how we fell into our enslavement to sin, the infringement of our free will.
ImCo:
Omniscience is badly defined and sadly needs a complete overhaul...
GOD's omniscience:
The early Church followed the pagan Greek widom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly and all, eh? To bad it is a blasphemy...
GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.
This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so...therefore it is blasphemy.
GOD does all things for HIS pleasure but HE takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked - therefore HE did not create them evil to go to hell! Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked...
Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation!
So what do I offer in its place? Acts 15:18 KJB Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE was created by HIS creative decree, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE does NOT KNOW IT....except as a possibility. The enslavement to sin of the wicked does not curtail their inventiveness in creating evil, it just curtails their ability to act righteously on the truth they know to be true, Rom 1:18+ ...
Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.
This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that If HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created them for ourselves and brought them into reality.
Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (you, me) but all sinners were created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or eternally evil.
So, as for Jer 19:5, HE did not create the evil thoughts of reprobate sinners so HE did not know them except as possibilities until they chose them but allowed them to be created by the eternally fallen to prove to HIS fallen elect, HIS sheep gone astray into sin after the reprobate, the true depths of their evil just as HE did in Job's story...
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