Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?

[TomL]

You havent provided one verse that states what you say

That is simply bald denial.


You failed to address scripture and did not address a single point.

First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved

Do you deny that, or will you, as usual, just ignore an answer?

1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

If he desires all to be saved, how consistent is it if he determines they will be lost?

Will you ever addresss this

second

1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.

You failed to address this

Third

When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

God is pleased when men believe and are then regenerated

And that person is not left in the flesh

Believers are not in the flesh when they believe but are when remaining in unbelief

In your theology, God chooses, saves, regenerates those in the flesh.

Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.

The Jews of Romans 9 in case you forgot were involved in denying Christ.

And those who do not believe are not made alive, contrary to your theology.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[TomL]

No, their disobedience was appointed, determined 1 Pet 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
τιθέναι τινα εἰς τί, to appoint one to (destine one to be) anything, passive, 1 Peter 2:8;

G5087 - tithēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G5087 - τίθημι títhēmi, tith'-ay-mee; a prolonged form of a primary θέω théō theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different...

www.blueletterbible.org

and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.ESV

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief they become a rock of offense to Christ and a stone to which they stumble


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.



It was their disbelief which results in their appointment to such

 

[FreeInChrist]

No, their disobedience was appointed, determined 1 Pet 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
τιθέναι τινα εἰς τί, to appoint one to (destine one to be) anything, passive, 1 Peter 2:8;

G5087 - tithēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G5087 - τίθημι títhēmi, tith'-ay-mee; a prolonged form of a primary θέω théō theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different...

www.blueletterbible.org

and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.ESV

1 Peter 2:8 trips up a lot of people because the English can sound like God predestined certain people to disobey, but that’s not actually what Peter is saying. Let’s slow it down and walk through it carefully and biblically.

1 Peter 2:8 does not mean God predestined people to disobey. The Greek “tithēmi” means placed or appointed. God appointed Christ as the stone; those who choose disobedience therefore stumble. The appointment is to the consequence (stumbling/judgment), not to the sin itself.

The actual verse says......​

1 Peter 2:8 (KJV) “They stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”

Now the key question is: What were they appointed to? (And this is where you are tripping u[p.)

Were they appointed to disobedience itself or the result of disobedience (stumbling/judgment)?

Here the Greek matters a lot.

You cited τίθημι (tithēmi) which means “to place, set, appoint.”

The most Important point is It does not automatically mean predestine morally or causally.
It often means simply set , place , assign , establish.

It is context that determines what is appointed.

Now look at the grammar flow.

Peter says: They stumble because they disobey the word to which they were appointed.

Notice the order:

1. They disobey (their action)
2. Therefore they stumble
3. That stumbling is what they were appointed to

DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT WAS THEIR STUMBLING THAT THEY WERE APPOINTED TO??????????

AND THIS APPOINTMENT FOLLOWS THEIR RESPONSE.

If Peter had meant “God predestined them to be disobedient” he would have structured it differently.

Instead he describes their choice becomes their consequence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do hope you are still reading for it will be clearer now.

The immediate context explains it​

Peter has just said 1 Peter 2:7–8 The stone which the builders rejected ... a stone of stumbling

(Actual wording: 7, This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8, and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.)

The stone (which is Christ) is what God appointed. Meaning that God has set/placed Christ as the dividing line.

So believers have salvation, and the disobedient go on stumbling.

God appointed the stone, not their unbelief.

A clearer paraphrase​

Do you need Peter’s meaning to be clearer?

“They stumble because they disobey the word — and stumbling is exactly what happens to those who reject Him.”
or
“They were appointed to this consequence.”
Not: appointed to sin But: appointed to the outcome of sin

Please pay attention......

Scripture never says God predestines people to disobey.

Instead it does say... God desires all to come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), He doesn’t tempt or cause sin (James 1:13)
People are responsible for their unbelief (John 5:40 “you will not come”)

So Peter cannot be teaching divine causation of disobedience.

We see this same pattern elsewhere...​

This “appointed to consequence” language appears in other places:

1 Thess 5:9 ~ God has not appointed us to wrath​

Meaning: not assigned to the result (wrath)

Luke 2:34 ~ appointed for the fall and rising of many​

Meaning: Jesus is appointed as the dividing line, not causing people to fall morally.

The very Same idea in 1 Peter.

​

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, you are correct that they were destined/appointed/determined to stumble because they were disobedient,

No they were destined to disobey, that's why they stumbled. Man naturally are already children of disobedience Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction God confirms what they are naturally. But the elect, He renews them with a nature that is obedient to the word

 

[brightfame52]

That is simply bald denial.

No its not. Just one scripture, you have failed

 

[brightfame52]

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

The will of God

 

[brightfame52]

1 Peter 2:8 trips up a lot of people because the English can sound like God predestined certain people to disobey, but that’s not actually what Peter is saying.

Yes it is saying that,

 

[brightfame52]

You cited τίθημι (tithēmi) which means “to place, set, appoint.”

The most Important point is It does not automatically mean predestine morally or causally.
It often means simply set , place , assign , establish.

Yes it does to appoint one to (destine one to be) anything, passive, 1 Peter 2:8;

G5087 - tithēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G5087 - τίθημι títhēmi, tith'-ay-mee; a prolonged form of a primary θέω théō theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different...

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[TomL]

The will of God

You ignored scripture

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief they become a rock of offense to Christ and a stone to which they stumble


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.



It was their disbelief which results in their appointment to such

 

[TomL]

No its not. Just one scripture, you have failed

As usual you address nothing

That is simply bald denial.


You failed to address scripture and did not address a single point.

First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved

Do you deny that, or will you, as usual, just ignore an answer?

1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

If he desires all to be saved, how consistent is it if he determines they will be lost?

Will you ever addresss this

second

1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.

You failed to address this

Third

When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

God is pleased when men believe and are then regenerated

And that person is not left in the flesh

Believers are not in the flesh when they believe but are when remaining in unbelief

In your theology, God chooses, saves, regenerates those in the flesh.

Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.

The Jews of Romans 9 in case you forgot were involved in denying Christ.

And those who do not believe are not made alive, contrary to your theology.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored scripture

Not one scripture says what you say. Some people God created for His Justice and wrath in Hell Rom 9 they are called vessels of wrath. He was willing to do that as their Potter Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word willing in the greek is thelō:
to will, have in mind, intend

1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish
3. to love

Same word used here

1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Of course 1 Tim 2:4 is His will for the elect vessels of mercy, but Rom 9 22 is His will for the non elect vessels of wrath

 

[brightfame52]

As usual you address nothing

See above Post 91

 

[TomL]

See above Post 91

Why as you address none of this there?

As usual you address nothing

That is simply bald denial.


You failed to address scripture and did not address a single point.

First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved

Do you deny that, or will you, as usual, just ignore an answer?

1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

If he desires all to be saved, how consistent is it if he determines they will be lost?

Will you ever addresss this

second

1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.

You failed to address this

Third

When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

God is pleased when men believe and are then regenerated

And that person is not left in the flesh

Believers are not in the flesh when they believe but are when remaining in unbelief

In your theology, God chooses, saves, regenerates those in the flesh.

Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.

The Jews of Romans 9 in case you forgot were involved in denying Christ.

And those who do not believe are not made alive, contrary to your theology.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[TomL]

The will of God

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief they become a rock of offense to Christ and a stone to which they stumble


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.



It was their disbelief which results in their appointment to such

 

[TomL]

The will of God

As I stated again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief they become a rock of offense to Christ and a stone to which they stumble


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.



It was their disbelief which results in their appointment to such

 

[TomL]

Not one scripture says what you say. Some people God created for His Justice and wrath in Hell Rom 9 they are called vessels of wrath. He was willing to do that as their Potter Rom 9:22

This shows the falsity of your claim;y

You ignored scripture

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief they become a rock of offense to Christ and a stone to which they stumble


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.



It was their disbelief which results in their appointment to such

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word willing in the greek is thelō:
to will, have in mind, intend

1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish
3. to love

That just shows some are vessels of wrath

i.e. those that are disobedient

Same word used here

1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Of course 1 Tim 2:4 is His will for the elect vessels of mercy, but Rom 9 22 is His will for the non elect vessels of wrath

1 Tim 2:4 speaks of all men and says nothing about any unconditionally elect

further

1 Timothy 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

shows Christ was given for all

 

[brightfame52]

Why as you address none of this there?

For what ?

 

[brightfame52]

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Its the will of God that some He made as Vessels of Wrath and fits them for destruction. Rom 9:22

 

[brightfame52]

This shows the falsity of your claim;y

How ? Not one of them says a word you say ?

 

[Kampioen]

No they were destined to disobey, that's why they stumbled. Man naturally are already children of disobedience Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction God confirms what they are naturally. But the elect, He renews them with a nature that is obedient to the word

But Rom 9:33 says the believers didn't stumble.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So nothing says anyone was unconditionally destined to stumble.

Election is real, but it is not unconditional.