Thanks. I was just checking with you since you at least partly would encounter the topic of wrath.
Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?
- Thread starter Swordman
- Start date
I would assume that. Just remember this simple principle - The broader the context for interpretation, the less likely you are to be in error.
The job of the exegete is to determine the best meaning of the text, not to defend a theological position.
brightfame52
Active Member
I stick with what I said
ok. Can you give an exegetical argument for your position?
So I took a look at your short statement. I see two issues (so far):
The statement does not presuppose that God has appoint some to wrath. In fact, the Bible is quite clear elsewhere that all are under sin and thus wrath at some point in their lives (Eph 2:3; Rom. 1:18-32, etc.). In fact, the only thing that can be stated here is that we are not appointed to wrath because we are in Christ.
Second, not every appointment implies a pretemporal election for individuals. TITHEMI can be used for a temporal appointment. For example, the apostles were appointed by Jesus to go a bear fruit (John 15:16). This was not a pretemporal appoint, but one that took place at the choosing of the disciples. Likewise, Paul was chosen for service to Christ because he proved faithful (1 Tim. 1:12). Appointments are often covenantal as well.
We cannot conclude that all appointments are pretemporal elections. Often they are God's activities within time.
brightfame52
Active Member
Lol yes it does
to appoint with oneself or in one's mind: τινα εἰς ὀργήν, to decree one to be subject to wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9;
The esv For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For God hath not appointed us to wrath,.... To destruction and ruin, the effect of wrath; though there are some that are vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, of old ordained to condemnation, and who are reserved for the day of evil; but there are others who are equally children of wrath, as deserving of the wrath of God in themselves as others, who are not appointed to it; which is an instance of wonderful and distinguishing grace to them:
Those who reject Jesus experience God’s wrath, which “abides” on them (John 3:36), while belief in Christ secures eternal life (John 3:36). God’s wrath is “revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom 1:18)—a response rooted in divine holiness confronting sin. This wrath manifests as spiritual alienation from God, where God allows people to experience the consequences of refusing relationship with him1.
The consequences of unbelief are severe and multifaceted. Those who do not know God and reject the gospel face “retribution” and “eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess 1:8–9). Without belief in Jesus, individuals “will die in [their] sins” (John 8:24). Rejection of Christ means standing already judged (John 3:16–18), and Christ’s words themselves become the judge at the final day for those who reject him (John 12:48).
Critically, wrath is not permanent to God’s nature—while love and holiness are essential, wrath depends on human sin1. The atonement became necessary because sin provoked the wrath of a holy Creator, making divine wrath and human depravity fundamental to understanding Christ’s redemptive work2. Though God’s opposition to sin exposes people to wrath, he offers deliverance through Christ to those who trust his mercy, creating a division between the freed and those remaining under wrath1.
Additional biblical passages: Belief and baptism lead to salvation, while disbelief results in condemnation (Mark 16:16). The unbelieving face the “lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Rev 21:8). Eternal life exists in God’s Son alone, so those without the Son lack life itself (1 John 5:10–12).
- 1
Stephen H. Travis, “Wrath of God: New Testament,” in The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 6:997. - 2
Tom Ascol, “Calvin and the Atonement,” The Founders Journal: Reconsidering Calvin and Calvinism, Winter (2009), 11.
brightfame52
Active Member
They are born and created for that.
Not stated in scripture
God desires all be saved
1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it is, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
And you dont believe scripture, you dont believe that the person in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8
So dont pretend you believe scripture when its shown to you
The stumbling to injury is the appointment *because* of a lack of faith ie disobedience/works of the law/flesh. But faith is not a work of the flesh.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? *Because* they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
brightfame52
Active Member
They were appointed to disobedience unbelief
You ignore the many verses.
First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved
1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
second
1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.
Third
When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him
And the person is not left in the flesh
Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.
brightfame52
Active Member
*Because* they sought it not by faith ie not unconditional predetermination.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? *Because* they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
And for persistence in disobedience ie *for this cause* or *because of this* they were appointed to more disbelief ie believe a lie ie further hardening. So you are partially correct. ...
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
You failed to address scripture and did not address a single point.
First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved
1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
second
1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.
Third
When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him
And the person is not left in the flesh
Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.
brightfame52
Active Member
They sought it not by Faith because God appointed them to disobedience and unbelief, and withheld Faith from them
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe them all, not one of them says God didn't make some as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction as it clearly indicates in Rom 9
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