The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
This is the work of Picasso. More simply, this is Picasso's work. This is not the work Picasso requires of you.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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This is the work of Picasso. More simply, this is Picasso's work. This is not the work Picasso requires of you.
civic
Well-known member
Conflating belief and works again
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I didn't even mention belief.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Correct. You responded as such nonetheless.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
God is better than Picasso. God is different than Picasso. This is such a silly comparison. You seek to make God like yourself.
Are you indebted to God?
Give it up as you were refuted by scripture and even Calvinist commentators
Christs choice was of his apostles
His disciples were given to him by the Father.
John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.
From them he chose 12 to be apostles
Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
clearly Christ chose his apostles
and even Calvinist commentators rebuke your view
Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.
But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.
Notice the reference to Luke 6:13
13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:
True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel
John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.
hello even Calvin
consider the various choices here in the wedding feast
Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.
Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.
Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.
Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.
Yiu simply lump them all together assuming there is bit one cholicef
In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles
Your position suffers from the following defects
Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ
you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation
yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation
Further we know God chooses to save those that believe
1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.
Three times it is clearly stated Christ chose his apostles
Luke 6:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:
John 6:70 (NASB 2020) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
Acts 1:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had given orders by the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom He had chosen.
ignoring scripture to posit your theology is not God honoring
You wrote "You willfully are skipping past verse 27 and I'm not going to let you get away with it", so let's do visit John 6:27.
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).
Do not be condused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!
In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35).
The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).
Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means work for Christ (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means your "He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" is false according to the Word of God!
Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God
Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.
Let’s review the exchange:
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:28-33)
The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that @The Rogue Tomato astutely put it, “You’re insisting that Jesus is somehow required to answer them according to their question. He is under no such obligation. He answered correctly. This is the work OF GOD, that you believe on whom He has sent. It's like: 'Dad, how long will it take us to walk to school?' 'I'm driving you there.'” (post #1,796).
The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33).
Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the Bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).
PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!
In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!
Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).
The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and your, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
Your heart's treasure produces false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
You just proved that you make false statements, because the Apostle John wrote "So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, 'Rabbi, when did You get here?' Jesus answered them" (John 6:23-26), so the "they" and "them" in John 6:28-30 and John 6:32-33; therefore, your "Jesus is talking to the 12 as being chosen by Him not everyone" is "More eisegesis. The context and sound exegesis refutes your false claims" regarding the blessed Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
Your heart's treasure produces false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God
Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.
Let’s review the exchange:
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:28-33)
The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that @The Rogue Tomato astutely put it, “You’re insisting that Jesus is somehow required to answer them according to their question. He is under no such obligation. He answered correctly. This is the work OF GOD, that you believe on whom He has sent. It's like: 'Dad, how long will it take us to walk to school?' 'I'm driving you there.'” (post #1,796).
The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33).
Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).
PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!
In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!
Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).
The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and your, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).
This examination needs to expand to the larger passage of "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).
Do not be condused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!
In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35).
The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).
Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means "work for Christ" as in fruit of the Spirit of the Living God (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and Galatians 5:22-23), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means free-willian philosopher's "He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" (the word of Rockson, see post #1,847) is false according to the Word of God!
Your heart's treasure produces false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST'S HOLY NAME!!!
civic
Well-known member
I see you came up with your empty claims and false assertions again. Let me know when you can refute me with scripture and exegesis which is lacking above.
You are all over the place with cheery picked verses that have nothing to do with Jesus teaching the 12.
Before this gets out of hand Please tone it down a bit.
As always you ignore rebuttal and context
Verse 28 defines for us the works of God
John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”
as what are we to do'
. What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? That is, such things as God will approve. This was the earnest inquiry of men who were seeking to be saved. They had crossed the Sea of Tiberias to seek him; they supposed him to be the Messiah, and they sincerely desired to be taught the way of life; yet it is observable that they expected to find that way as other sinners commonly do—by their works. The idea of doing something to merit salvation is one of the last that the sinner ever surrenders.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.
The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.
Messianic work.
28. τί ποιῶμεν …; What must we do (v. 5) that we may work? Perhaps they understood Him to mean that they must earn what they desire; certainly they see that Christ’s words have a moral meaning; they must do the works required by God. But how?
29. τὸ ἔργον. They probably thought of works of the law, tithes, sacrifices, &c. He tells them of one work, one moral act, from which all the rest derive their value, continuous belief (πιστεύητε, not πιστεύσητε) in Him whom God has sent. Comp. Acts 16:31. On ἵνα and ἀπέστειλεν see on 1:8, 33, 4:47, 17:3.1
1 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 155.
τὰ ἔργα τοῦ θεοῦ must not be taken to mean ‘the works which God works,’ but, as in Jer. 48:10 (31:10 LXX): 1 Cor. 15:58, the works well pleasing to God.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 760–761.
and of course in reference to John 15:16
Christ's disciples were given to him by the Father
John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything which You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on the behalf of those whom You have given Me, because they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
He did not choose them
Rather, from that group he chose his apostles
Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.
But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples (apostles) by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.
12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.
True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.
16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.
In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.
Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.
Three other times we read of Christ choosing
Each time it refers to choosing his apostles
John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
John 13:18 (ESV) — 18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
day
Acts 1:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had given orders by the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom He had chosen.
you have ignored the overall context of scripture and isolated John 15:16 to propagate your theology
Rockson
Well-known member
I find interesting that even John Calvin on the Jn 6:27 verse sought to exhort others not to go down the road and make the mistake that some of the Calvinists on here do.
civic
Well-known member
They should take heed from the founder of their theology.
civic
Well-known member
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
End of discussion as the founder of your theology just refuted you. Back to the drawing board.
Hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
So much for your view even Calvin who is the founder of your systematic theology opposes your view and agrees with me, Jesus and the Apostles.
hope this helps !!!
You wrote "Your monergism just crashed and burned" about "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned above are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!
No Christian writes that the Word of God "crashed and burned".
The "faith" is controlled by God in "we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13) because the same Apostle Paul wrote:
by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
And, the Apostle Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ saying "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Your heart issues falsehoods about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY, SOVEREIGN KING JESUS!!!
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civic
Well-known member
the founder of your doctrines disagrees with your eisegesis below:
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
You wrote not of my Founder, so you bear false witness against me.
The founder of my Christian doctrine is Lord Jesus Christ who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned above are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!
Your heart superimposed Calvin onto Christ when you wrote "the founder of your doctrines disagrees with your eisegesis below: John Calvin"; therefore, your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
civic
Well-known member
Are you reformed or a calvinist ? yes or no
