An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Johann
Active Member
What matters about election is what God says about it. Knowing what God says, I question the quotation of Grudem -- the reason for election is God's sovereign choice? The reason? I love God's choosing, His election, but the reason for it is God's sovereign choice? Where does scripture say that? And isn't "election" itself simply "God's choice"? Election is His choice, not the reason for His choice.
Choosing ahead of time does not follow that the choosing is unconditional. Not with God. God is not bound by time. He is Omniscient. I guess we're supposed to believe that choosing beforehand means the choice is unconditional. Doesn't God's timelessness and omniscience allow for God to elect only those who believe?
Grudem also twists foreseen faith into foreseen merit. Calvinists do this by making foreseen faith a work by categorizing faith as someone's individual choice or election. I agree that election or choosing is separated in the Bible as a unique aspect of God in salvation. However, man does believe and believing isn't technically, that is, scripturally, a choice. Men choose, but salvation doesn't come by choice, but by faith. I'm saying that faith isn't a choice, because the Bible doesn't say it is. Faith and choice are different. Even in real time, after the foundation of the world, among men, faith is not choice.
Grudem and Combs are saying that faith, if it is foreseen, is a choice and, therefore, merit, because man is making that choice, because man believing equals man choosing. However, let's say that faith isn't a choice and yet man is still believing. Because man is believing, that doesn't make it or mean it is a work, just because it is a man believing. Is God believing for a man? Is a man actually not doing the believing either? Because if he believes, a man, then it is a work? Either way, biblical faith isn't a work, and Grudem and Combs are wrong on this, no matter how they promote this false dilemma.
A lot of twisting going on-here, read the article.
I have a theory or opinion about Calvinists. Even if it were true, I can't see one of them admitting it, but I think that Calvinists feel ashamed of their view of God, which is why they keep barking about these points that don't plainly follow from the text of scripture. Their emotion, often anger, comes out of that shame. I expect Calvinists to mock this. But they know why people don't believe it. People who reject the points of Calvin can't wrap their brain around the idea that God has predetermined people to heaven and to hell. Scripture doesn't come out and say that. Calvinists get that idea from a kind of deduction that I don't think we should call logical. All teaching in scripture included, the Calvinist idea isn't supported. It isn't logical because the premises of Calvinism aren't all true.
J.
dwight92070
Active Member
So God was controlling Hamas when they cut the fingers of a 7 year-old Israeli boy off and the foot of his little sister? God was controlling Hamas when they beheaded babies and baked them in ovens? God was controlling Hamas when they raped women and machine-gunned whole families?
God was in control when Hamas terrorists called their mothers to brag about how many Jews they slaughtered? And God was in control when those same mothers were filled with joy to hear of the innocent Jewish children and babies and elderly being tortured and the young girls being raped - by their sons?
synergy
Active Member
It is @brightfame52's god who is in control of those satanic events, who can be no one other, by sheer deduction, than satan himself. It all makes sense now.
FALSE
1Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Tim 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Tim 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
The good Lord desires all people to be saved and He has given the means, the mediator Christ Jesus.
In your theology God does not desire all people to be saved.
You are adding to Scripture, where is the word elect in the passage?
Nowhere.
You are doing the same as @jeremiah1five , he adds the word Jews to the passage, also nowhere in the passage.
-----
Let's see what you further have to add to Scripture to make your false belief believable to yourself.
1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. [Scripture]
1 John 2:2 -He is the propitiation for our sins (the elect), and not for ours (the elect) only but also for the sins of the (elected) whole world. [YOU]
John 1:29 - The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! [Scripture]
John 1:29 - The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the (elected) world! [YOU]
You might even believe Jesus only died for the elect ?
But you think you are??
Once one accepts that false doctrine of Total Depravity, the false Calvinist doctrine of election must follow. With Total Depravity and without the Calvinist election then the whole of mankind would be eternally condemned. Total Depravity is not derived from the scriptures but from Augustine's Manichaeism which he carried over into his Christian theology.A lot of twisting going on-here, read the article.
I have a theory or opinion about Calvinists. Even if it were true, I can't see one of them admitting it, but I think that Calvinists feel ashamed of their view of God, which is why they keep barking about these points that don't plainly follow from the text of scripture. Their emotion, often anger, comes out of that shame. I expect Calvinists to mock this. But they know why people don't believe it. People who reject the points of Calvin can't wrap their brain around the idea that God has predetermined people to heaven and to hell. Scripture doesn't come out and say that. Calvinists get that idea from a kind of deduction that I don't think we should call logical. All teaching in scripture included, the Calvinist idea isn't supported. It isn't logical because the premises of Calvinism aren't all true.
J.
Johann
Active Member
Many struggle with assurance of salvation in Christ, and when they encounter teachings on election and total depravity, they may stumble and be drawn away. "But he who received the seed by the wayside is the one who hears the word and does not understand it; then the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart" (Matt 13:19).
These doctrines, rooted in Augustine’s influence, have caused many to doubt, yet Scripture calls us to stand firm in truth. "Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as indeed you do" (1 Thess 5:11).
We need more defenders of the faith to refute these errors, for "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). @Jim
Have a blessed day brother.
Johann.
MTMattie
Active Member
@ProDeo said....
For a moment, forget everything you learned and focus on the below Scripture passage.
1Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Tim 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Tim 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
The good Lord desires all people to be saved and He has given the means, the mediator Christ Jesus.
Since when do you @brightfame52 include ALL in the elect?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Those that look at the Hebrew Scripture with a Gentile mindset formed by western thought will see the Hebrew Scripture from Genesis to Revelation as though God is addressing non-Hebrew Gentiles, but the context is "Jews" since Jesus Christ came to save "His people" (Matt. 1:21) and His people are the Jews. All twelve tribes plus one.
If there was another word instead of the misleading "world" in the passage it would be right there in the passage.
The facts are Messiah, or the One like unto Moses was prophesied to the children of Israel. John was sent to herald the coming of the One to the Hebrew people and this he did (John 1:31.) And Jesus came to and for the Hebrew people according to the Law. There is no Scripture that the high priest after offering yearly sacrifice for the children of Israel left Israel and went to the Gentiles and offered sacrifice for their sin. And for Jesus Christ who, as High Priest Himself, was sent and fulfilled the Law - including the target people for whom He was sacrificed in order to atone finally and eternally for the sins of the children of Israel. Israel's Savior, Redeemer, Messiah, Lord, and King was prophesied to and for Israel and to Israel He came. So, in speaking to Nicodemus it's not necessary to identify "Jews" as the "world of Jews" in John 3:16. If Jesus fulfilled the Law then His death as that of the animal was to and for the children of Israel. Saul knew this and correctly says:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4–5.
Gentiles excluded. They were never under the Law nor are they "His [Jesus'] people."
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Mt 1:20–21.
Gentiles are NOT "His people."
jeremiah1five
Active Member
When one comes to understand the elect of God are the seed of Abraham then they will read the Scripture in context to whom it was sent to: the children of Israel, the Jews.
So "all" and "world" and other words that would lead the Gentile mindset to interpret these words in the 21st century and in English miss the point. Israel is the Bride, the Church, the People of God. When one comes to understand to whom Messiah was prophesied to and for, then that person has come to the knowledge of the truth.
God promised nothing to Gentiles.
But God has promised ALL to the Jews.
Read it as intended. God's love letter to His elect people: the Jews.
Johann
Active Member
synergy
Active Member
You keep forgetting about the New Covenant that your favorite Apostle of all times (Paul) allowed Gentiles to participate in as the Lord's Supper. Come out and say that you love Paul. Don't be shy.
Your Ethnic Cleansing spirit must be convulsing in sheer agony because of that fact. Tell us its name so that we can proceed with its exorcism.
civic
Active Member
They most certainly are an arrogant, narcissistic bunch. Strange, since they can never know for sure that they are among the elect.
But I know some, such as @Red Baker who posts here, that are dedicated believing children of God. I am convinced that in spite of their adherence to such a false gospel and a false doctrine of soteriology have been accepted by God and have eternal life.
Johann
Active Member
Similar threads
