An Article on free will

[civic]

Are you ? Because :
Jn 1:12 is clarified by the very next verse 13 they received Him because they had been born of God.

nope they were born again after believing/receiving.

you have it completely backwards and are reading calvin into the Bible and replacing him with Jesus.

next fallaxy.

 

[civic]

No, you are wrong. Such knowledge comes only from the study of God's written word as given to the apostles and prophets.

All of those events concern the special revelation given to apostles and prophets. They have nothing to do with knowledge being bestowed upon any others. More specifically, neither you nor I nor anyone else today fall into the category of ones to whom the Holy Spirit speaks to and teaches directly.

ditto

 

[Jim]

Amen,

A little more about this. Many Christians believe that the Holy Spirit not only has given us the Bible as such, but also gives us definitive, subjective help in understanding it. This is called the doctrine of illumination, which is the idea that the Spirit speaks directly to our minds, directly stimulating our intellects to perceive the true meaning of Scripture. The following texts are said to promise this gift of knowledge to every believer: Matt 10:19-20; John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:10-13; Heb 8:10-11 (Jer 31:31-34); 1 John 2:20,27. Some take this to be the main purpose of the Spirit’s indwelling, and they pray, “Open my eyes, illumine me, Spirit divine.” The doctrine of illumination as commonly taught is not a biblical doctrine. This is true for four reasons.

One, Christian people who claim to be illumined by the Spirit often have different and even opposing understandings of the same passages of Scripture, e.g., texts about gender roles or the millennium.

Two, In the final analysis it is a useless idea, for even those who believe in illumination recognize that individual Christians grow in their understanding and sometimes change their interpretations of Scripture. When this happens, one always assumes that he is changing from a mistaken view to the correct view, or from a non-illumined view to an illumined view. But does this not mean that what he once thought was an illumined view was actually a mistaken view? So how can he be sure that his present views are illumined rather than mistaken, and that no further changes will occur?

Three, the doctrine of illumination is actually the product of the doctrine of universal total depravity. Illumination is necessary because the totally depraved person is completely blind in his intellect and cannot understand the Bible unless illumined by the Spirit. But as I have said so many times, the doctrine of total depravity is itself not biblical. The sinner’s blindness is partial and willful, not total and inborn (Rom 1:18; Eph 4:18).

The fourth reason for rejecting the doctrine of illumination is that it has no exegetical basis in Scripture. Ironically, the passages cited as proof-texts for this doctrine are themselves misinterpreted and misapplied. For example, Matt 10:19-20; John 14:26; 16:13; and 1 Cor 2:10-13 apply only to the apostles, and refer to revelation and inspiration. They are not general promises to all Christians; to apply them thus is a serious error.

Even though the doctrine of illumination is false, this does not mean that we receive no help from God in our effort to understand Scripture. What it means is that such help is not a distinctive work of the Spirit. It is rather something God promises to us as a part of his special providential answer to prayer. See Ps 119:18; Eph 1:17-18; Phil 1:9-10; Col 1:9. All these Scriptures are prayers; and answers to prayer may be the work of the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. God will not answer such prayers by directly feeding knowledge into our minds, but by providing us with the means to achieve this knowledge through personal study. He will sharpen our mental processes, clear our preoccupied minds, prevent distractions, help us to concentrate, and help us to recall ideas or put ideas together. Also, James 1:5 instructs us to pray for wisdom. This is not a prayer for new knowledge, but for insight and understanding in how to use and apply what is already known.

Most of this comes, as you, @MTMattie, might expect from my favorite theologian, Jack Cottrell and his book, The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, Published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc..

 

[Johann]

1st Corinthians 2:14​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Johann, not only a rejection of God's wisdom, but Paul plainly said: "neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Which prove that regeneration must proceed a person being able to know and receive spiritual truths. The natural man must be made spiritual in order to embrace spiritual truths. It is not that deep, but it goes against man's pride of what he thinks of himself and his own ability without God ~and that's hard for him to let go of. I'm not speaking about any particular man on thsi forum, but all men as they are by nature.

You're saying that 1 Corinthians 2:14 proves a person has to be regenerated before they can understand or receive spiritual truth. But that’s not actually what Paul is saying in this passage. Let’s break it down.

First, when Paul talks about the “natural man” (ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος), he’s talking about someone who is operating purely on worldly thinking, someone who doesn’t accept the wisdom of God because, to them, it seems foolish. But notice the wording—it’s not that the natural man cannot ever understand; it’s that he does not receive it. That’s a key difference. This is about rejection, not an inherent inability.

If we look at the surrounding context in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Paul is explaining that divine wisdom is revealed by the Spirit, and those who are spiritual recognize it. But that doesn’t mean an unregenerate person is incapable of grasping anything about God. Instead, the issue is their disposition—they choose to see it as foolishness because they’re leaning on human wisdom.

And if we compare this with other scriptures, the idea that people have to be regenerated before they can even grasp spiritual truth doesn’t hold up.

Take John 7:17, where Jesus says, If anyone wants to do His will, he will know about the teaching.

That shows that a willingness to seek God precedes understanding, not the other way around. Or look at Acts 17:11—when Paul preached, the Bereans examined the Scriptures daily to see if what he said was true. They were unregenerate at that point, yet they were capable of reasoning through spiritual truth.

Now, about the phrase “spiritually discerned” (πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται) in 1 Corinthians 2:14—it means divine wisdom is understood through the Spirit’s guidance. But nowhere does it say this can’t happen before regeneration. The Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), meaning He’s working on people before they’re saved. Look at Acts 26:18—Paul was sent to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. That means people in darkness can recognize the truth when it’s presented to them.

The bigger problem with saying that regeneration comes before faith is that it contradicts what Scripture actually teaches about salvation. Over and over again, the Bible presents faith as the prerequisite to being born again, not the result of it.

John 1:12 – Those who received Him were given the right to become children of God.
John 3:16 – Whoever believes has eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13 – After believing, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:43-44 – Cornelius and his household believed, and then the Holy Spirit came upon them.

If regeneration had to happen first, these passages would read the other way around. But they don’t.

And then there’s the issue of free will. All throughout the Bible, God calls people to make a choice:

Deuteronomy 30:19 – Choose life.
Isaiah 55:6-7 – Seek the Lord while He may be found.
Matthew 23:37 – Jesus says, You were not willing. That means they could have but refused.

If people had to be regenerated before they could even understand or receive spiritual truth, none of these calls to seek God and believe would make sense. The Bible constantly presents belief as something people are called to do, not something that happens after they’re regenerated.

So, no, 1 Corinthians 2:14 doesn’t prove that regeneration precedes faith. What it does show is that the natural man, left to his own way of thinking, rejects divine truth. But the Holy Spirit convicts and draws people so they can respond in faith. Faith comes first—then regeneration follows.

Contextual Analysis of 1 Corinthians 2:14
Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 340-345 – Wallace explains that ψυχικός (psychikos, "natural man") refers to one governed by human reasoning rather than divine wisdom and that the rejection of divine truth is due to a moral disposition, not an ontological inability.

A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 532-536 – Robertson discusses how πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται (spiritually discerned) emphasizes perception through the Spirit’s guidance but does not require prior regeneration.
C.F.D. Moule, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p. 108-112 – Moule notes that Paul's contrast in 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 is between worldly reasoning and divine wisdom, not between the regenerate and unregenerate in an absolute sense.

2. The Work of the Holy Spirit Before Regeneration
John 16:8-9 – Jesus states that the Holy Spirit convicts the world (not just the elect) of sin before salvation, indicating that the unregenerate can recognize divine truth before regeneration.

Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, p. 241-245 – Bauckham argues that divine revelation is made available to all, though only those who respond in faith receive its full understanding.

3. Biblical Evidence That Faith Precedes Regeneration
John 1:12-13 – Receiving Christ (faith) is the basis for becoming a child of God, showing that faith precedes regeneration.
Ephesians 1:13 – Paul states that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing, which contradicts the claim that regeneration (which involves receiving the Spirit) must happen first.

David L. Allen, The Extent of the Atonement, p. 271-276 – Allen emphasizes that faith is the means by which people receive salvation, not the result of prior regeneration.

Michael L. Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, Vol. 2, p. 138-142 – Brown argues that the biblical pattern consistently shows people responding to the gospel before receiving new life in the Spirit.

4. The Role of Human Responsibility and Free Will
Deuteronomy 30:19 – The command to “choose life” implies real human responsibility.
Matthew 23:37 – Jesus’ lament that people were “not willing” supports the idea that people resist divine truth, not that they are incapable of responding before regeneration.

David L. Allen, Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique, p. 84-92 – Allen critiques the claim that people must be regenerated before faith, showing that many biblical passages call for an act of belief before new birth.

The interpretation that 1 Corinthians 2:14 proves regeneration must precede faith is inconsistent with both Greek grammar and the broader biblical witness. The passage describes the rejection of divine truth, not an inherent inability to understand it. Numerous passages (John 1:12, John 3:16, Ephesians 1:13) demonstrate that faith precedes regeneration, and the Spirit convicts and draws sinners before they are born again (John 16:8, Acts 26:18). Thus, the claim that the unregenerate cannot understand spiritual truth at all apart from regeneration is not supported by the text.

But the natural man -- The NIV inserts "the man without the Spirit" for the Greek "the natural man" or "physical man". In 1Co_2:12-13 the word "know" becomes "understand", and erroneously teaching that we cannot understand the Scripture without the direct operation of the Spirit.

Johann.

 

[Jim]

You're saying that 1 Corinthians 2:14 proves a person has to be regenerated before they can understand or receive spiritual truth. But that’s not actually what Paul is saying in this passage. Let’s break it down.

First, when Paul talks about the “natural man” (ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος), he’s talking about someone who is operating purely on worldly thinking, someone who doesn’t accept the wisdom of God because, to them, it seems foolish. But notice the wording—it’s not that the natural man cannot ever understand; it’s that he does not receive it. That’s a key difference. This is about rejection, not an inherent inability.

If we look at the surrounding context in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Paul is explaining that divine wisdom is revealed by the Spirit, and those who are spiritual recognize it. But that doesn’t mean an unregenerate person is incapable of grasping anything about God. Instead, the issue is their disposition—they choose to see it as foolishness because they’re leaning on human wisdom.

And if we compare this with other scriptures, the idea that people have to be regenerated before they can even grasp spiritual truth doesn’t hold up.

Take John 7:17, where Jesus says, If anyone wants to do His will, he will know about the teaching.

That shows that a willingness to seek God precedes understanding, not the other way around. Or look at Acts 17:11—when Paul preached, the Bereans examined the Scriptures daily to see if what he said was true. They were unregenerate at that point, yet they were capable of reasoning through spiritual truth.

Now, about the phrase “spiritually discerned” (πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται) in 1 Corinthians 2:14—it means divine wisdom is understood through the Spirit’s guidance. But nowhere does it say this can’t happen before regeneration. The Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), meaning He’s working on people before they’re saved. Look at Acts 26:18—Paul was sent to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. That means people in darkness can recognize the truth when it’s presented to them.

The bigger problem with saying that regeneration comes before faith is that it contradicts what Scripture actually teaches about salvation. Over and over again, the Bible presents faith as the prerequisite to being born again, not the result of it.

John 1:12 – Those who received Him were given the right to become children of God.
John 3:16 – Whoever believes has eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13 – After believing, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:43-44 – Cornelius and his household believed, and then the Holy Spirit came upon them.

If regeneration had to happen first, these passages would read the other way around. But they don’t.

And then there’s the issue of free will. All throughout the Bible, God calls people to make a choice:

Deuteronomy 30:19 – Choose life.
Isaiah 55:6-7 – Seek the Lord while He may be found.
Matthew 23:37 – Jesus says, You were not willing. That means they could have but refused.

If people had to be regenerated before they could even understand or receive spiritual truth, none of these calls to seek God and believe would make sense. The Bible constantly presents belief as something people are called to do, not something that happens after they’re regenerated.

So, no, 1 Corinthians 2:14 doesn’t prove that regeneration precedes faith. What it does show is that the natural man, left to his own way of thinking, rejects divine truth. But the Holy Spirit convicts and draws people so they can respond in faith. Faith comes first—then regeneration follows.

Contextual Analysis of 1 Corinthians 2:14
Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 340-345 – Wallace explains that ψυχικός (psychikos, "natural man") refers to one governed by human reasoning rather than divine wisdom and that the rejection of divine truth is due to a moral disposition, not an ontological inability.

A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 532-536 – Robertson discusses how πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται (spiritually discerned) emphasizes perception through the Spirit’s guidance but does not require prior regeneration.
C.F.D. Moule, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p. 108-112 – Moule notes that Paul's contrast in 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 is between worldly reasoning and divine wisdom, not between the regenerate and unregenerate in an absolute sense.

2. The Work of the Holy Spirit Before Regeneration
John 16:8-9 – Jesus states that the Holy Spirit convicts the world (not just the elect) of sin before salvation, indicating that the unregenerate can recognize divine truth before regeneration.

Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, p. 241-245 – Bauckham argues that divine revelation is made available to all, though only those who respond in faith receive its full understanding.

3. Biblical Evidence That Faith Precedes Regeneration
John 1:12-13 – Receiving Christ (faith) is the basis for becoming a child of God, showing that faith precedes regeneration.
Ephesians 1:13 – Paul states that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing, which contradicts the claim that regeneration (which involves receiving the Spirit) must happen first.

David L. Allen, The Extent of the Atonement, p. 271-276 – Allen emphasizes that faith is the means by which people receive salvation, not the result of prior regeneration.

Michael L. Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, Vol. 2, p. 138-142 – Brown argues that the biblical pattern consistently shows people responding to the gospel before receiving new life in the Spirit.

4. The Role of Human Responsibility and Free Will
Deuteronomy 30:19 – The command to “choose life” implies real human responsibility.
Matthew 23:37 – Jesus’ lament that people were “not willing” supports the idea that people resist divine truth, not that they are incapable of responding before regeneration.

David L. Allen, Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique, p. 84-92 – Allen critiques the claim that people must be regenerated before faith, showing that many biblical passages call for an act of belief before new birth.

The interpretation that 1 Corinthians 2:14 proves regeneration must precede faith is inconsistent with both Greek grammar and the broader biblical witness. The passage describes the rejection of divine truth, not an inherent inability to understand it. Numerous passages (John 1:12, John 3:16, Ephesians 1:13) demonstrate that faith precedes regeneration, and the Spirit convicts and draws sinners before they are born again (John 16:8, Acts 26:18). Thus, the claim that the unregenerate cannot understand spiritual truth at all apart from regeneration is not supported by the text.

But the natural man -- The NIV inserts "the man without the Spirit" for the Greek "the natural man" or "physical man". In 1Co_2:12-13 the word "know" becomes "understand", and erroneously teaching that we cannot understand the Scripture without the direct operation of the Spirit.

Johann.

See my post just above this one.

 

[Johann]

See my post just above this one.

Interesting @Jim.

Most of this comes, as you, @MTMattie, might expect from my favorite theologian, Jack Cottrell and his book, The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, Published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc..

Do you have a link to this?

Johann.

 

[Jim]

Interesting @Jim.

Most of this comes, as you, @MTMattie, might expect from my favorite theologian, Jack Cottrell and his book, The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, Published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc..

Do you have a link to this?

Johann.

It is available in hard copy or on Kindle. You might be able to find information on this topic by searching Jack Cottrell online.

 

[civic]

It is available in hard copy or on Kindle. You might be able to find information on this topic by searching Jack Cottrell online.

I don't know much about him but from the few things I have read that have been posted here he seems to be a solid guy.

 

[Johann]

It is available in hard copy or on Kindle. You might be able to find information on this topic by searching Jack Cottrell online.

Thanks, Jim.

We are all students of God's Word, seeking to edify one another as members of the same body in Christ. "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Romans 12:5) "That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another." (1 Corinthians 12:25) "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

Jack Cottrell appears to be theologically sound and reliable.

God bless.

Johann.

 

[civic]

I'm not to big on the church of christ. But for now I won't hold that against him.

 

[Johann]

I'm not to big on the church of christ. But for now I won't hold that against him.

What do you mean civic?

J.

 

[civic]

What do you mean civic?

J.

see below especially the last paragraph. they have a similar view to the brethren movement about their denomination being the true church and being a member of one of their communities. Also their view of baptism by immersion only for the forgiveness of sins is a requirement to be saved. Another one is no musical instruments in the church. They are very legalistic. I had a family member years ago in the church of christ.

Salvation and

 

[Johann]

see below especially the last paragraph. they have a similar view to the brethren movement about their denomination being the true church and being a member of one of their communities. Also their view of baptism by immersion only for the forgiveness of sins is a requirement to be saved. Another one is no musical instruments in the church. They are very legalistic. I had a family member years ago in the church of christ.

Salvation and

It is my belief that all church denominations, in one way or another, tend toward legalism. This highlights the imperative for each of us to submit ourselves to the Spirit of truth, as we are called to do in John 16:13, which says, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth."

We must be vigilant against allowing pride to take root, as pride is a temptation that exists within all of us, as expressed in Proverbs 16:18, "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." Therefore, let us remember 1 Peter 5:5-6, which exhorts us, "Clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

Shalom.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

A little more about this. Many Christians believe that the Holy Spirit not only has given us the Bible as such, but also gives us definitive, subjective help in understanding it. This is called the doctrine of illumination, which is the idea that the Spirit speaks directly to our minds, directly stimulating our intellects to perceive the true meaning of Scripture. The following texts are said to promise this gift of knowledge to every believer: Matt 10:19-20; John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:10-13; Heb 8:10-11 (Jer 31:31-34); 1 John 2:20,27. Some take this to be the main purpose of the Spirit’s indwelling, and they pray, “Open my eyes, illumine me, Spirit divine.” The doctrine of illumination as commonly taught is not a biblical doctrine. This is true for four reasons.

One, Christian people who claim to be illumined by the Spirit often have different and even opposing understandings of the same passages of Scripture, e.g., texts about gender roles or the millennium.

Two, In the final analysis it is a useless idea, for even those who believe in illumination recognize that individual Christians grow in their understanding and sometimes change their interpretations of Scripture. When this happens, one always assumes that he is changing from a mistaken view to the correct view, or from a non-illumined view to an illumined view. But does this not mean that what he once thought was an illumined view was actually a mistaken view? So how can he be sure that his present views are illumined rather than mistaken, and that no further changes will occur?

Three, the doctrine of illumination is actually the product of the doctrine of universal total depravity. Illumination is necessary because the totally depraved person is completely blind in his intellect and cannot understand the Bible unless illumined by the Spirit. But as I have said so many times, the doctrine of total depravity is itself not biblical. The sinner’s blindness is partial and willful, not total and inborn (Rom 1:18; Eph 4:18).

The fourth reason for rejecting the doctrine of illumination is that it has no exegetical basis in Scripture. Ironically, the passages cited as proof-texts for this doctrine are themselves misinterpreted and misapplied. For example, Matt 10:19-20; John 14:26; 16:13; and 1 Cor 2:10-13 apply only to the apostles, and refer to revelation and inspiration. They are not general promises to all Christians; to apply them thus is a serious error.

Even though the doctrine of illumination is false, this does not mean that we receive no help from God in our effort to understand Scripture. What it means is that such help is not a distinctive work of the Spirit. It is rather something God promises to us as a part of his special providential answer to prayer. See Ps 119:18; Eph 1:17-18; Phil 1:9-10; Col 1:9. All these Scriptures are prayers; and answers to prayer may be the work of the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. God will not answer such prayers by directly feeding knowledge into our minds, but by providing us with the means to achieve this knowledge through personal study. He will sharpen our mental processes, clear our preoccupied minds, prevent distractions, help us to concentrate, and help us to recall ideas or put ideas together. Also, James 1:5 instructs us to pray for wisdom. This is not a prayer for new knowledge, but for insight and understanding in how to use and apply what is already known.

Most of this comes, as you, @MTMattie, might expect from my favorite theologian, Jack Cottrell and his book, The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, Published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc..

@Jim . A wonderfully concise explanation. Thank you for providing another truth, truly spoken by you and your favorite theologian, Jack Cotrell

@Johann , Amazon's link to the book is https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Once-A...or+all+bible+doctrine+for+today,aps,90&sr=8-1

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

I said not in the pure meaning of Calvinism, but did say very plainly that I was what is known as a High Calvinist, and I'm not ashamed of it. But, I prefer to be call what I'm according to the scriptures........ a believer, Christian, etc. I very seldom use the word Armenianism when speaking of those folks who teach a conditional salvation. I prefer just to going after the scriptures they used to refute them for most people used those two terms to attack the person and not their teachings

So you are not only a Calvinist...
but a HIGH CALVINIST.
I'm happy to hear this RB.....it's good to accept what we are.

No FORM of Calvinism is correct.
Not too much difference between the two....the main belief system remains the same.
I appreciate that you never called me an Arminan since I don't even know what Arminius taught.

I agree that you're a believer and a Christian...
HOWEVER,
I DO have no doubt whatsoever that you're following a different gospel ...
that calvinism is heretical (in the true meaning of the word)
and that this belief system blasphemes God...
attributing to God the work of satan. (evil works and OT of God).

You are ranting instead of refuting the scriptures that was used in the post. If you have a word to say that can refute what was said, then by means do so ~ otherwise, I'm moving on.

I'm not ranting.
It gets tiring replying to the SAME OLD VERSES over and over when the party on the other side (you) is so brainwashed that he cannot understand plain English.

You brought up Romans 9.
I studied both versions of the theology in Romans 9...
did you?

Calvinism has EVERYTHING wrong....
Words must be changed...
scripture must be twisted.
A plain and simple reading of scripture will NOT support calvinism.

Why don't you watch the following which is on Romans 9?
I've attempted to debate this with a couple of members...spend a lot of time on it....
and then it just dies out. (by the other member, not me).
So maybe YouTube could come in handy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOA1p3NaJ1c&t=33s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCLtbVnOqq4&t=321s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y4yjSwEkfY&t=97s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRo1HUXkWB0

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

Joh 1:12 But to all who did accept Him, and trust in His name, He gave the right to become the children of God,

You have the order wrong.

You have it wrong, Jn 1:12 is clarified by Jn 1:13

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All the jews were rejecting Him but them which had been born of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Since you boldly said that I did not understand Romans nine, then go there and prove to me that I do not.

Okay show me and after you are finish then I will post, but not until you say that you are finish. Anxiously, and patiently be waiting.

I'm finished.
See my post just above this one.
Watch if you dare.

Jacob and Isau represent Israel.....
Paul is not speaking about the salvation of individuals.

How could God hate anyone?
Jesus said we are to hate our parents if we want to follow Him.
Does Jesus mean this literally?
Did He not teach that we are to LOVE GOD, LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSESLF?

Watch the videos....
Yes. I repeat....CALVINISM DOES NOT PROPERLY EXEGETE ROMANS 9...
Just like it doesn't properly exegete many other verses.

 

[Johann]

@Johann



You have it wrong, Jn 1:12 is clarified by Jn 1:13

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All the jews were rejecting Him but them which had been born of God.

My brother, you seem unfamiliar with the true art of debate. You are merely repeating the same old one-liners, neglecting to consider the full counsel of Scripture. You use Bible verses that you think support your position, but in reality, they do not.

J.

 

[Johann]

I'm finished.
See my post just above this one.
Watch if you dare.

Jacob and Isau represent Israel.....
Paul is not speaking about the salvation of individuals.

How could God hate anyone?
Jesus said we are to hate our parents if we want to follow Him.
Does Jesus mean this literally?
Did He not teach that we are to LOVE GOD, LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSESLF?

Watch the videos....
Yes. I repeat....CALVINISM DOES NOT PROPERLY EXEGETE ROMANS 9...
Just like it doesn't properly exegete many other verses.

I do enjoy listening to Mike Winger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMuiT_R0zFQ&pp=ygUUcm9tYW5zIDkgbWlrZSB3aW5nZXI=

J.

 

[brightfame52]

nope they were born again after believing/receiving.

you have it completely backwards and are reading calvin into the Bible and replacing him with Jesus.

next fallaxy.

You have it backwards, even in the common sense perspective, anyone knows life is b4 activity. How can a dead person receive and believe ?