An Article on free will

[Johann]

'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name (Himself):
.. Which (Who) were (was) born,
.... not of blood,
...... nor of the will of the flesh,
........ nor of the will of man,
.......... but of God.
And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.'
(Joh 1:11-14)

Hello @Red Baker,

Please consider the following quote from my Bible's marginal notes:-


(Ref:- The Companion Bible's marginal notes -Dr. E.W. Bullinger )

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi @Complete.


The argument that John 1:13 originally read in the singular ("Who was begotten") rather than the plural ("who were born") is highly controversial and not widely accepted in textual criticism. Below is an analysis of the issue based on manuscript evidence, patristic testimony, and grammatical considerations.

1. Manuscript Evidence
The overwhelming majority of Greek manuscripts, including P66 (c. AD 200), P75 (early 3rd century), Codex Sinaiticus (4th century), Codex Vaticanus (4th century), Codex Alexandrinus (5th century), and the Byzantine tradition, all contain the plural form:
"οἳ... ἐγεννήθησαν" ("who were born").

No known extant Greek manuscript supports the singular reading (ὃς... ἐγεννήθη "Who was born").

The Latin Codex Veronensis does have "Qui natus est", which could support the singular, but this is an Old Latin text, not a Greek one. A few other Old Latin manuscripts contain similar singular readings.

2. Patristic Testimony

Irenaeus (c. AD 180) quotes the verse in the plural (Against Heresies 3.16.2), contradicting the claim that he supported the singular reading.

Tertullian (c. AD 208) appears to reference the singular (De Carne Christi 19), but this is in a polemical context where he is arguing against Gnostic interpretations of Christ's incarnation.

Augustine (c. AD 395) accepts the plural reading in Contra Julianum 6.10 but discusses the singular as a possible alternative.

The suggestion that the plural reading was an alteration by Valentinian Gnostics does not hold up under scrutiny, as Gnostic texts often emphasize divine descent rather than human rebirth, and the manuscript tradition does not support this claim.

3. Grammatical and Contextual Considerations
The plural reading aligns with the immediate antecedent, "τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ" ("those who believe in His name"), clearly referring to believers.

The singular reading would lack a clear grammatical antecedent since "His name" (τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ) is neuter, while ὃς (who) is masculine.

The transition to John 1:14 ("And the Word became flesh") strongly suggests that verse 13 speaks of believers, leading up to the Incarnation in verse 14.

The plural reading is overwhelmingly supported by Greek manuscripts, early patristic sources, and the natural flow of the text.

The singular reading, though attested in some Latin texts and used in theological discussions by Tertullian, lacks Greek manuscript evidence and does not fit well grammatically.

The claim that the plural form was introduced by Valentinian Gnostics is historically unsubstantiated.

Thus, Bullinger’s assertion in The Companion Bible is not supported by the best manuscript evidence, and the standard reading of John 1:13 should remain plural ("who were born").

Thanks.

J.

 

[Johann]

Context is king Johann ~ I know you know this, just a friendly, brotherly reminder. verses 10,11, John tell us the the world, (Gentiles) knew him not, then the Spirit through John said that he came unto his own (the Jewish people), and they received him not....notice carefully the very nest word: BUT.....Johann, you and I should greatly rejoice in the inspired disjunctive – but – for the light of life made a difference. In spite of the previous verse stating that His own received Him not, some did. The historical narrative continued, stating exceptions to the previous generality. Natural man cannot and will not receive Christ, even by the Spirit (I Cor 2:14). To receive Christ is to believe on Him as Son of God; see last clause of 1:12. To receive Christ is to accept and believe His doctrine and duties (Col 2:5-9).
To them gave he power to become the sons of God.

You Have the Order Backward BROTHER.
You insist that people are born again before they believe, but John 1:12 explicitly states:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

The sequence here is crystal clear:

First, they receive Christ (which is equated with believing in His name).
Then, they are given the right to become sons of God.

If your position were correct, John 1:12 should say, “As many as were regenerated, to them He gave the ability to believe.” But it doesn’t. It says belief comes first, then the status of sonship is granted.

2. You Misread the Present Tense "Believe"

You highlight that "believe" (πιστεύουσιν) is in the present tense and try to twist that into an argument that faith must be the result of regeneration. But that is a complete category error.

The present participle simply describes the ones receiving Christ as those who are believing.
It does not mean that belief is the result of regeneration.

Even if John had used an aorist participle, it still wouldn’t support your case. The point remains that believing is the means by which people receive Christ and are given the right to be sons of God.

3. John 1:13 Does Not Reverse the Order of Verse 12
You claim John 1:13 proves regeneration precedes faith, but you completely misinterpret its function in the passage. Let’s examine it:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This verse explains why receiving Christ leads to becoming God's child—it is because this new birth is a divine work, not a human effort.
But it does not negate the previous statement that faith is the condition for receiving Christ.

If your interpretation were correct, we would expect John 1:13 to say something like, "As many as were born of God, they then believed in His name and received Him." But it doesn’t say that.

John never disconnects faith from sonship.
Being born of God is not opposed to faith—it is the means by which the new life begins, through faith (John 3:16, John 5:24, Gal. 3:26).

4. Your Misuse of 1 Corinthians 2:14

You cite 1 Corinthians 2:14 ("The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God") as if this proves people cannot believe unless they are first regenerated.

But that passage refers to the rejection of spiritual wisdom by unbelievers, not the necessity of regeneration before faith.

Jesus commands sinners to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15).

If people were incapable of responding without first being regenerated, this command would be meaningless.

5. Your Analogy of Physical Birth Fails

You argue that since we had no part in our first birth, we must have no part in our second birth. But that’s a false analogy.

The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the Word (Romans 10:17).
James 1:18 – "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth."
1 Peter 1:23 – "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God."

Both of these verses show that the new birth is brought about through the reception of God's Word, which necessarily involves faith.

If your view were correct, people would be born again apart from hearing the gospel, but that’s not what Scripture teaches.

6. The Entire Gospel of John Opposes Your View
John constantly presents faith as the means of life—not the result of being regenerated first.

John 3:16 – "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 5:24 – "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."
John 6:47 – "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

If regeneration precedes faith, why does John repeatedly say that believing leads to life?

7. The Fatal Theological Problem in Your View

Your claim that regeneration precedes faith leads to an unavoidable contradiction:

If people are regenerated before they believe, then they are saved before believing in Christ.
That would mean they are born again before trusting in Jesus.
Which means they are sons of God before receiving Christ.

That is utterly unbiblical and absurd.

Final Challenge to You

Brother, you are ignoring the plain order of the text because of a theological system that John himself never taught. John 1:12 says that belief precedes the right to become sons of God. John 1:13 does not override that—it simply clarifies that this new birth is entirely God’s work, not man's effort.

You have two choices:

Let Scripture speak plainly and acknowledge that belief in Christ is the condition for sonship.
Force your theological system onto the text and ignore what the passage actually says.

Which will you choose, my friend?

Johann.

 

[Red Baker]

Your exclusionary beliefs betray you. You don't get to choose who God accepts worship from.

God's word has clearly reveal to us the evidence of false prophets and their religion from whence they come from. He also told us to withdraw ourselves from them. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5!

 

[praise_yeshua]

God's word has clearly reveal to us the evidence of false prophets and their religion from whence they come from. He also told us to withdraw ourselves from them. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5!

Then why are you here? Do you think before you respond? Withdraw yourself if you think I'm one of them.

God hasn't withdrawn Himself from me. You can do whatever you want but don't pretend you're actually following what you preach to others. You're not.

BTW. Do you need to know English to understand what God has said? Do you communicate "spiritually" only?

JUST FYI....

By definition the "Word of God" is innately alive and able to communicate the message of God. No "special" revelation needed. It just needs to be believed.

All this "spiritual hocus pocus" you're preaching is nonsense. Without another man teaching what God has revealed, you have nothing. You're dependent upon MEN to know God.

Sadly, you're listening to the wrong people.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You Have the Order Backward BROTHER.
You insist that people are born again before they believe, but John 1:12 explicitly states:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

The sequence here is crystal clear:

First, they receive Christ (which is equated with believing in His name).
Then, they are given the right to become sons of God.

If your position were correct, John 1:12 should say, “As many as were regenerated, to them He gave the ability to believe.” But it doesn’t. It says belief comes first, then the status of sonship is granted.

2. You Misread the Present Tense "Believe"

You highlight that "believe" (πιστεύουσιν) is in the present tense and try to twist that into an argument that faith must be the result of regeneration. But that is a complete category error.

The present participle simply describes the ones receiving Christ as those who are believing.
It does not mean that belief is the result of regeneration.

Even if John had used an aorist participle, it still wouldn’t support your case. The point remains that believing is the means by which people receive Christ and are given the right to be sons of God.

3. John 1:13 Does Not Reverse the Order of Verse 12
You claim John 1:13 proves regeneration precedes faith, but you completely misinterpret its function in the passage. Let’s examine it:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This verse explains why receiving Christ leads to becoming God's child—it is because this new birth is a divine work, not a human effort.
But it does not negate the previous statement that faith is the condition for receiving Christ.

If your interpretation were correct, we would expect John 1:13 to say something like, "As many as were born of God, they then believed in His name and received Him." But it doesn’t say that.

John never disconnects faith from sonship.
Being born of God is not opposed to faith—it is the means by which the new life begins, through faith (John 3:16, John 5:24, Gal. 3:26).

4. Your Misuse of 1 Corinthians 2:14

You cite 1 Corinthians 2:14 ("The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God") as if this proves people cannot believe unless they are first regenerated.

But that passage refers to the rejection of spiritual wisdom by unbelievers, not the necessity of regeneration before faith.

Jesus commands sinners to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15).

If people were incapable of responding without first being regenerated, this command would be meaningless.

5. Your Analogy of Physical Birth Fails

You argue that since we had no part in our first birth, we must have no part in our second birth. But that’s a false analogy.

The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the Word (Romans 10:17).
James 1:18 – "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth."
1 Peter 1:23 – "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God."

Both of these verses show that the new birth is brought about through the reception of God's Word, which necessarily involves faith.

If your view were correct, people would be born again apart from hearing the gospel, but that’s not what Scripture teaches.

6. The Entire Gospel of John Opposes Your View
John constantly presents faith as the means of life—not the result of being regenerated first.

John 3:16 – "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 5:24 – "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."
John 6:47 – "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

If regeneration precedes faith, why does John repeatedly say that believing leads to life?

7. The Fatal Theological Problem in Your View

Your claim that regeneration precedes faith leads to an unavoidable contradiction:

If people are regenerated before they believe, then they are saved before believing in Christ.
That would mean they are born again before trusting in Jesus.
Which means they are sons of God before receiving Christ.

That is utterly unbiblical and absurd.

Final Challenge to You

Brother, you are ignoring the plain order of the text because of a theological system that John himself never taught. John 1:12 says that belief precedes the right to become sons of God. John 1:13 does not override that—it simply clarifies that this new birth is entirely God’s work, not man's effort.

You have two choices:

Let Scripture speak plainly and acknowledge that belief in Christ is the condition for sonship.
Force your theological system onto the text and ignore what the passage actually says.

Which will you choose, my friend?

Johann.

If he were skilled in what he believes...... he would have already made it known that enlightenment isn't regeneration.

Which is correct. It isn't. However, all Calvinists are so self serving that they can't see enlightenment for what it really is. They fabric the notion that "enlightenment" only comes directly from the Spirit of God. Which is nonsense.

The Gospel itself enlightens. "Enlightenment" comes from learning. It is result of maturity and understanding that comes from living within God's design (this life we live). There are many things that teach us and it is the very breath of God that begins life in every human being that animates and enables mankind to learn.

Calvinism is just such a egotistic theology. It drives men crazy with self worth/pride.

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

You Have the Order Backward BROTHER.
You insist that people are born again before they believe, but John 1:12 explicitly states:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

Yeah and Jn 1:13 tells why

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were born of God. A person must be born again or of God to see the Kingdom of God Jn 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus was the Kingdom of God among them, but not all could see[perceive] that Lk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
They also did not realize that the Kingdom of God was personified in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Red Baker]

Calvinists and too many others completely misunderstand 1 Corinthians 2.

@Jim

Good to see you posting Jim. You and I have debated this very scripture more than once over the years, so, what I have to say will be more for those who have not considered your position before.

It is not about the difference between the born again and the others. It is between the divinely inspired and the others.

Jim, as the last time we debated these scriptures, the truth of them has not changed, and I see neither has your understanding of them, which should, if you consider not only the overall context of 1st Corinthians 2, but the scriptures overall.

The entire passage of 1 Corinthians 2 concerns Paul's divinely inspired revelation.

Jim, this is not correct, please consider:

1st Corinthians 2:7​

“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”

Jim, this is not limited to Paul, but to the whole household of faith! And if limited to the children of God, and it is, then these hidden mystery is revealed to them by the Spirit of God which each and every child of God possess.

1st Corinthians 2:8
"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

The natural men of this world, did not know, for if they had know (by the revelation of God's Spirit) then they would have never crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:9​

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, (the natural men) the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”

Jim, why are you attempting to take the children bread away from them? Shame on you, you should know better. Jim, these blessed truths which Paul is speaking about has entered in our hearts, God's Spirit has taught us about these glorious truths and we have lay hold of them by faith, just as Abraham did of old.

Hebrews 11:13-16​

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Jim: Verse 12 speaks of what Paul and the other apostles of Christ received, not from the spirit of this world, but rather from the Spirit of God. You are not taught by the Spirit of God; you are taught by the words of the divinely inspired words of the apostles and prophets. You are neither.

Jim, while it is true holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost and no scriptures is of any private interoperation, yet it is just as true ~ God's Spirit is within each and every child of God and He is their teacher which truth you reject, which is sad and it leaves you to your own wisdom that will never allow you to come unto the of truth as it is in Christ Jesus. You reject:

Ephesians 1:17​

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,”

Jim: This is all summarized by verse 16: "We have the mind of Christ". That is not me or you.

Jim you ae so wrong! When one is born again, they are created after the image of Jesus Christ, giving the child of God the mind of Christ, and by that mind we live our life on this earth as we travel unto the promise land.

Philippians 2:5​

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”

Jim: That can be said only of the divinely inspired apostles and prophets. If that referred to the born again, then among the born again, there could not possibly be any conflict in our theology ever.

Jim, the reason righteous men disagree, is because we still live in this body of sin and death, thereby, as sad as it is, we will disagree more than we desire to do. Also, false prophets are here constantly fueling the fire.

Jim: If we had the mind of Christ, we would not need anything more; we would not need the Bible. The Holy Spirit does not teach you or me anything.

Jim why are you saying these childish things? Even Jesus said that man should not live by bread alone but by every word of God, even Christ, and the apostles needed the scriptures, and Christ had the Spirit without measure ~ and they were filled with the Spirit, much more than any of us will ever be. Apart form teh scriptures we would not know anything, so they are very important for us along with having the mind of Christ, which our new man has!

Jim: He is indeed a helper, a comforter, a "paraclete"., one who helps us to understand the words of the apostles and prophets, one who helps us to obey those words.

So, are saying that we have the mind of Christ? You are getting close, keep going.

1 Corinthians 2:14​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Jim, were those at Corinth that Paul was writing to, natural men, or spiritual? For he clearly said: "for they are foolishness unto him:" Jim, this can in no way be said of a child of God. He also said neither can he know them.....so, who are these natural men that thinks the word of God is foolishness, and are unable to know them? Men like the princes of this world! So much more could be said, but enough for now.

 

[Johann]

@Johann



Yeah and Jn 1:13 tells why

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were born of God. A person must be born again or of God to see the Kingdom of God Jn 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus was the Kingdom of God among them, but not all could see[perceive] that Lk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
They also did not realize that the Kingdom of God was personified in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have it backward @brightfame52.

Breathing Before Birth?

Analogy-- Imagine someone arguing that a baby must breathe before being born. This would be absurd because breathing is a result of birth, not the cause of it.

γεννάω (gennáō, "to be born") in John 1:13 is an aorist passive participle (οἳ ἐγεννήθησαν - hoi egennēthēsan) meaning the action happened to them—they did not birth themselves.

If regeneration (γεννάω ἄνωθεν, "to be born again" in John 3:3) came before faith, it would be like breathing before birth—logically impossible.

John 1:12 says those who "received Him" (ἔλαβον, aorist active indicative of λαμβάνω), "to them He gave the right to become children of God."

If they were already regenerated, they would already be children of God before believing.

2. Hearing Before Understanding

Analogy--A person cannot understand a language they have never heard. Faith comes by hearing (ἀκοή - akoē), and hearing comes through the Word (Romans 10:17).

John 5:24 – ὁ τὸν λόγον μου ἀκούων καὶ πιστεύων ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον ("The one hearing My word and believing has eternal life").

The present active participles (ἀκούων, "hearing"; πιστεύων, "believing") precede the present active indicative (ἔχει, "has") eternal life.

The sequence is hearing → believing → life.

If regeneration preceded faith, John should have said, "the one having life believes," but instead, life follows believing.

3. Eating Before Hunger?

Analogy-- Imagine saying someone must be full before eating. Hunger leads to eating, not the other way around.

John 6:35 – ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός με οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ διψήσει πώποτε ("The one coming to Me will never hunger, and the one believing in Me will never thirst").

The present participles (ἐρχόμενος - "coming"; πιστεύων - "believing") precede the satisfaction (οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, "will never hunger"; οὐ μὴ διψήσει, "will never thirst").

If regeneration came first, the person would already be satisfied before coming and believing—again, reversing the order Jesus established.

4. Opening Eyes Before Seeing

Analogy-- A blind man cannot see before his eyes are opened. Faith is the opening of spiritual eyes to perceive the truth (Acts 26:18).

2 Corinthians 4:4-6 – Satan has "blinded the minds" of unbelievers, but when God shines the light, they "see."

Faith is light entering the heart, not the result of already having sight.

Acts 16:14 – διήνοιξεν τὴν καρδίαν ("The Lord opened her heart"), aorist active indicative showing that hearing and responding to the Gospel followed the heart being opened.

5. Drinking Before Water is Offered?

Analogy-- No one can drink water that has not yet been given. Jesus offers the living water to those who believe, not to those who have already received it.

John 7:37-39 – ἐάν τις διψᾷ, ἐρχέσθω πρός με καὶ πινέτω ("If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink").

The condition is thirst (διψᾷ - present active subjunctive) → The action is coming and drinking.

Verse 39 clarifies that this refers to the Spirit, who was given later. If regeneration preceded faith, why does Jesus invite them to come first, then receive?

These analogies demonstrate that faith is the means by which one receives new life, not the result of being regenerated first.

The Greek verbs and syntax consistently show the logical order: hearing → believing → life, not regeneration → faith.

Right?

J.

 

[Red Baker]

You Have the Order Backward BROTHER.

@Johann

I'm finish for today, but will answer you tomorrow. The Lord who is gracious above all, be so to you brother. RB

 

[brightfame52]

You have it backward @brightfame52.

Breathing Before Birth?

Analogy-- Imagine someone arguing that a baby must breathe before being born. This would be absurd because breathing is a result of birth, not the cause of it.

γεννάω (gennáō, "to be born") in John 1:13 is an aorist passive participle (οἳ ἐγεννήθησαν - hoi egennēthēsan) meaning the action happened to them—they did not birth themselves.

If regeneration (γεννάω ἄνωθεν, "to be born again" in John 3:3) came before faith, it would be like breathing before birth—logically impossible.

John 1:12 says those who "received Him" (ἔλαβον, aorist active indicative of λαμβάνω), "to them He gave the right to become children of God."

If they were already regenerated, they would already be children of God before believing.

2. Hearing Before Understanding

Analogy--A person cannot understand a language they have never heard. Faith comes by hearing (ἀκοή - akoē), and hearing comes through the Word (Romans 10:17).

John 5:24 – ὁ τὸν λόγον μου ἀκούων καὶ πιστεύων ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον ("The one hearing My word and believing has eternal life").

The present active participles (ἀκούων, "hearing"; πιστεύων, "believing") precede the present active indicative (ἔχει, "has") eternal life.

The sequence is hearing → believing → life.

If regeneration preceded faith, John should have said, "the one having life believes," but instead, life follows believing.

3. Eating Before Hunger?

Analogy-- Imagine saying someone must be full before eating. Hunger leads to eating, not the other way around.

John 6:35 – ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός με οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ διψήσει πώποτε ("The one coming to Me will never hunger, and the one believing in Me will never thirst").

The present participles (ἐρχόμενος - "coming"; πιστεύων - "believing") precede the satisfaction (οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, "will never hunger"; οὐ μὴ διψήσει, "will never thirst").

If regeneration came first, the person would already be satisfied before coming and believing—again, reversing the order Jesus established.

4. Opening Eyes Before Seeing

Analogy-- A blind man cannot see before his eyes are opened. Faith is the opening of spiritual eyes to perceive the truth (Acts 26:18).

2 Corinthians 4:4-6 – Satan has "blinded the minds" of unbelievers, but when God shines the light, they "see."

Faith is light entering the heart, not the result of already having sight.

Acts 16:14 – διήνοιξεν τὴν καρδίαν ("The Lord opened her heart"), aorist active indicative showing that hearing and responding to the Gospel followed the heart being opened.

5. Drinking Before Water is Offered?

Analogy-- No one can drink water that has not yet been given. Jesus offers the living water to those who believe, not to those who have already received it.

John 7:37-39 – ἐάν τις διψᾷ, ἐρχέσθω πρός με καὶ πινέτω ("If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink").

The condition is thirst (διψᾷ - present active subjunctive) → The action is coming and drinking.

Verse 39 clarifies that this refers to the Spirit, who was given later. If regeneration preceded faith, why does Jesus invite them to come first, then receive?

These analogies demonstrate that faith is the means by which one receives new life, not the result of being regenerated first.

The Greek verbs and syntax consistently show the logical order: hearing → believing → life, not regeneration → faith.

Right?

J.

You have it wrong, Jn 1:12 is clarified by Jn 1:13 one received Christ because they had been born of God

 

[Johann]

1 Corinthians 2:14​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Jim, were those at Corinth that Paul was writing to, natural men, or spiritual? For he clearly said: "for they are foolishness unto him:" Jim, this can in no way be said of a child of God. He also said neither can he know them.....so, who are these natural men that thinks the word of God is foolishness, and are unable to know them? Men like the princes of this world! So much more could be said, but enough for now.

@Johann

I'm finish for today, but will answer you tomorrow. The Lord who is gracious above all, be so to you brother. RB

Amen brother-have a good rest.

Johann.

 

[Johann]

You have it wrong, Jn 1:12 is clarified by Jn 1:13 one received Christ because they had been born of God

Are you a robot? All you do is repeat the same one-liners without offering any scriptural rebuttals!

J.

 

[TomL]

Hello @TomL,

I believe that God has foreknowledge, therefore knows beforehand what will take place, and the choices that will be made, but that those choices made are not pre-determined, otherwise how could God judge justly?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

hello Chris

That is a common belief. I would agree choices are not predetermined.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Good to see you posting Jim. You and I have debated this very scripture more than once over the years, so, what I have to say will be more for those who have not considered your position before.


Jim, as the last time we debated these scriptures, the truth of them has not changed, and I see neither has your understanding of them, which should, if you consider not only the overall context of 1st Corinthians 2, but the scriptures overall.

Jim, this is not correct, please consider:

1st Corinthians 2:7​

“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”

Jim, this is not limited to Paul, but to the whole household of faith! And if limited to the children of God, and it is, then these hidden mystery is revealed to them by the Spirit of God which each and every child of God possess.

You speak with only the knowledge derived from what the apostles and prophets have written for us by the power of the Holy Spirit. You can cite absolutely zero knowledge given you apart from that written revelation. The Holy Spirit does not impart to you any knowledge personally.

All the rest of your post is in direct conflict with that fact, no matter how you attempt to claim otherwise.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you a robot? All you do is repeat the same one-liners without offering any scriptural rebuttals!

J.

Are you ? Because :
Jn 1:12 is clarified by the very next verse 13 they received Him because they had been born of God.

 

[Johann]

Are you ? Because :
Jn 1:12 is clarified by the very next verse 13 they received Him because they had been born of God.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did accept Him, and trust in His name, He gave the right to become the children of God,

You have the order wrong.

Greek Text (Textus Receptus):
ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ

1. Morphological Analysis:
ὅσοι (hósōi) – relative pronoun, nominative masculine plural; “as many as” or “whoever.” Indicates an open, conditional category.
δὲ (dé) – conjunction; “but” or “however.” Contrasts those who rejected Him (John 1:11) with those who received Him.
ἔλαβον (élabon) – aorist active indicative 3rd person plural of λαμβάνω; “they received.” The aorist tense denotes a completed action in the past.
αὐτόν (autón) – accusative singular masculine pronoun; “Him” (referring to the Logos, Jesus Christ).
ἔδωκεν (édōken) – aorist active indicative 3rd person singular of δίδωμι; “He gave.” Again, the aorist denotes a definitive, completed action.
αὐτοῖς (autois) – dative plural pronoun; “to them.” The recipients of the given authority.
ἐξουσίαν (exousían) – accusative singular feminine noun; “authority, right, power.” Denotes delegated authority rather than inherent ability.
τέκνα (tékna) – accusative plural neuter noun; “children.” Different from υἱοί (huioí) (“sons”), emphasizing relationship rather than legal status.
Θεοῦ (Theoû) – genitive singular noun; “of God.” Indicates possession or origin.
γενέσθαι (genésthai) – aorist middle infinitive of γίνομαι; “to become.” The middle voice suggests participation in the process rather than passivity.
τοῖς πιστεύουσιν (toîs pisteúousin) – present active participle dative masculine plural of πιστεύω; “the ones believing.” The present tense signifies continuous, ongoing faith.
εἰς (eis) – preposition governing the accusative; “into.” Denotes movement toward an object.
τὸ ὄνομα (tò ónoma) – accusative singular neuter noun; “the name.” Represents the person and authority of Christ.
αὐτοῦ (autoû) – genitive singular masculine pronoun; “His.” Refers to Jesus Christ.
2. Syntactical Observations:
ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν – Subordinate clause functioning as the subject of the main verb ἔδωκεν; “But as many as received Him.”
τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ – Dative substantive participial phrase modifying αὐτοῖς (those who received Him). Continuous belief is linked to reception.
ἐξουσίαν τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι – Object of ἔδωκεν; literally “He gave them the authority to become children of God.”

3. Theological Analysis:
The verse establishes that divine sonship is not inherent but conferred upon those who receive and believe in Christ.
ἐξουσίαν does not mean automatic regeneration but rather the right or privilege to enter into the status of being God’s children.

The present participle πιστεύουσιν (believing) contrasts with the aorist ἔλαβον (received), showing that faith is continuous while receiving Him is a decisive act.

The preposition εἰς with πιστεύω (believe) implies full trust or commitment, not mere intellectual assent.

Antithesis in John 1:12

John 1:12 stands in antithetical contrast to both the preceding and following verses:

1. Contrast with John 1:11
John 1:11: εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν, καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον – “He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.”

John 1:12: ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν... – “But as many as received Him...”

Antithesis:

In v.11, His own (the Jews) did not receive Him (οὐ παρέλαβον).

In v.12, those who did receive Him (ἔλαβον) were given authority to become children of God.

The rejection of Christ results in a lost relationship, whereas receiving Him leads to divine adoption.

2. Contrast with John 1:13
John 1:12: He gave them the right to become children of God.
John 1:13: οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς, ἀλλ’ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν. – “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Antithesis:

v.12 emphasizes the human response of receiving and believing.

v.13 clarifies that this new birth is not of natural descent but a divine act. I think we all can agree here.

Faith and reception do not cause regeneration; rather, God is the ultimate agent of new birth.
The contrast emphasizes that becoming a child of God (τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι) is based on God’s work rather than human lineage or effort.

This passage harmonizes divine sovereignty with human responsibility: salvation is granted by God, but it is experienced by those who actively receive and continuously trust in Christ.

Joh_1:12 "But as many as received Him" This shows humanity's part in salvation (cf. Joh_1:16). Humans must respond to God's offer of grace in Christ (cf. Joh_3:16; Rom_3:24; Rom_4:4-5; Rom_6:23; Rom_10:9-13; Eph_2:8-9). God is certainly sovereign, yet in His sovereignty He has initiated a conditional covenant relationship with fallen humanity. Fallen mankind must repent, believe, obey, and persevere in faith.
This concept of "receiving" is theologically parallel to "believing" and "confessing," which denoted a public profession of faith in Jesus as the Christ (cf. Mat_10:32; Luk_12:8; Joh_9:22; Joh_12:42; 1Ti_6:12; 1Jn_2:23; 1Jn_4:15). Salvation is a gift that must be received and acknowledged.
Those who "receive" Jesus (Joh_1:12) receive the Father who sent Him (cf. Joh_13:20; Mat_10:40). Salvation is a personal relationship with the Triune God!

As many as received him (hosoi elabon auton). Effective aorist active indicative of lambanō “as many as did receive him,” in contrast with hoi idioi just before, exceptional action on the part of the disciples and other believers.

To them (autois). Dative case explanatory of the relative clause preceding, an anacoluthon common in John 27 times as against 21 in the Synoptists. This is a common Aramaic idiom and is urged by Burney (Aramaic Origin, etc., p. 64) for his theory of an Aramaic original of the Fourth Gospel.

The right (exousian). In Jhn_5:27 edōken (first aorist active indicative of didōmi) exousian means authority but includes power (dunamis). Here it is more the notion of privilege or right.

To become (genesthai). Second aorist middle of ginomai, to become what they were not before.

Children of God (tekna theou). In the full spiritual sense, not as mere offspring of God true of all men (Act_17:28). Paul’s phrase huioi theou (Gal_3:26) for believers, used also by Jesus of the pure in heart (Mat_5:9), does not occur in John’s Gospel (but in Rev_21:7). It is possible that John prefers ta tekna tou theou for the spiritual children of God whether Jew or Gentile (Jhn_11:52) because of the community of nature (teknon from root tek-, to beget).

But one cannot follow Westcott in insisting on “adoption” as Paul’s reason for the use of huioi since Jesus uses huioi theou in Mat_5:9. Clearly the idea of regeneration is involved here as in Jhn_3:3.

Even to them that believe (tois pisteuousin). No “even” in the Greek, merely explanatory apposition with autois, dative case of the articular present active participle of pisteuō.
On his name (eis to onoma). Bernard notes pisteuō eis 35 times in John, to put trust in or on. See also Jhn_2:23 and Jhn_3:36 for pisteuō eis to onoma autou. This common use of onoma for the person is an Aramaism, but it occurs also in the vernacular papyri and eis to onoma is particularly common in the payment of debts (Moulton and Milligan’s Vocabulary). See Act_1:15 for onomata for persons.

But this is an unfruitful exercise.

J.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

You speak with only the knowledge derived from what the apostles and prophets have written for us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed

You can cite absolutely zero knowledge given you apart from that written revelation.

Jim, this is true, and even I have said this so many times in the past fifteen years or so, since you and I have discuss scriptures. Of course the knowledge any child of God has come from what is written, no divine revelations outside of what is written ~ yet some men have greater knowledge, and that knowledge does not come through their own power, wisdom, but is given freely by the Spirit of God though a personal revelation as a reward for seeking, asking, searching, mediation, and faith, etc., and at times just because God wills to do so whomsoever he wills.

Matthew 13:11​

“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”

Matthew 13:16​

“But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Matthew 13:17​

“For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”

Ephesians 3:5​

“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”

John 8:56​

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

1 Peter 1:10​

“Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

Jim: All the rest of your post is in direct conflict with that fact, no matter how you attempt to claim otherwise.

See the proofs above just given! and there's more if needed. Plus, Jim, considered that the same truths reveal unto the apostles and prophets by the Spirit, must be be reveal unto us, or why would we even consider believing them if they are not ~ Christians are not rubber stamp followers of men, but we too search the scriptures and see if those things are so, trusting the same Spirit to open our understanding that we too may see, understand and embrace the same truths, we certainly do not trust our own hearts and wisdom, but God's words, through the Spirit of God.

 

[Red Baker]

You Have the Order Backward BROTHER.
You insist that people are born again before they believe, but John 1:12 explicitly states:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

The sequence here is crystal clear:

First, they receive Christ (which is equated with believing in His name).
Then, they are given the right to become sons of God.

@Johann

I'm sure to you you believe it is crystal clear, but is it really as clear as you think it is? Let us look at this a little bit more. Johann, you said:

If your position were correct, John 1:12 should say, “As many as were regenerated, to them He gave the ability to believe.” But it doesn’t. It says belief comes first, then the status of sonship is granted.

Johann, what the Spirit of God does say is almost as blunt as your quote, if we listen carefully.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Brother, one of you good points above stated concerning John 3:1-8 you said:

2. Logical Flow in John 3:1-8

Johann my brother, the same consideration must be consider in John 1:10-13, which I would think you would do so, but as a friendly advice to another brother, make sure you consider the flow of the context here as well, it will serve you greatly in coming to the knowledge of the truths contained herein. Please consider: In John 1:10,11 we read where neither the world = Gentiles, nor his own people the Jews, believed on him. John 1:12 starts out with But, which we carefully explained here:

notice carefully the very next word: BUT.....Johann, you and I should greatly rejoice in the inspired disjunctive – but – for the light of life made a difference. In spite of the previous verse stating that His own received Him not, some did. The historical narrative continued, stating exceptions to the previous generality. Natural man cannot and will not receive Christ, even by the Spirit (I Cor 2:14). To receive Christ is to believe on Him as Son of God; see last clause of 1:12. To receive Christ is to accept and believe His doctrine and duties (Col 2:5-9).

So, let us carefully consider the next phrase of this sentence to see what John is truly teaching us:

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Johann, those that received Christ, to THEM gave he power to become sons of God, which power/authority was not given to those in verses 10, and 11! Johann, the logical flow of the context will drive its interpretation for us, if we harden not our hearts to the the testimony of God. Faith, brother is the evidence taht this power/authority has been shown to us ~ that believe on his name.

3. John 1:13 Does Not Reverse the Order of Verse 12
You claim John 1:13 proves regeneration precedes faith, but you completely misinterpret its function in the passage. Let’s examine it:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This verse explains why receiving Christ leads to becoming God's child—it is because this new birth is a divine work, not a human effort.
But it does not negate the previous statement that faith is the condition for receiving Christ.

If your interpretation were correct, we would expect John 1:13 to say something like, "As many as were born of God, they then believed in His name and received Him." But it doesn’t say that.

What I said was this: John 1:13 is the Spirit's commentary to us concerning what was stated in John 1:12 and it is. When John started out v12 with "BUT" he pointed out to us that some did received and believed on Christ, and he went from there to show us why the difference between those that did and those that did not ~it is just that simple, even those men seek to complicate, or put a totally different spin on the verse to confuse God's children and others seeking the truth.

John never disconnects faith from sonship. Being born of God is not opposed to faith—it is the means by which the new life begins, through faith (John 3:16, John 5:24, Gal. 3:26).

I agree as far as being the evidence thereof, it certainly is not oppose, for without faith/works there is no evidence ~but our faith, which is so imperfect is not the means, for the "only means" is Jesus' obedience and and perfect faith, thereby, it cannot be ours. We can look at those verses later, if you desire for us to do so~ (John 3:16, John 5:24, Gal. 3:26).

Your Misuse of 1 Corinthians 2:14

I addressed @Jim post yesterday and again earlier today. See above.

I do see where you come from a different angle than Jim did, so let me address this.

But that passage refers to the rejection of spiritual wisdom by unbelievers, not the necessity of regeneration before faith.

1st Corinthians 2:14​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Johann, not only a rejection of God's wisdom, but Paul plainly said: "neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Which prove that regeneration must proceed a person being able to know and receive spiritual truths. The natural man must be made spiritual in order to embrace spiritual truths. It is not that deep, but it goes against man's pride of what he thinks of himself and his own ability without God ~and that's hard for him to let go of. I'm not speaking about any particular man on thsi forum, but all men as they are by nature.

5. Your Analogy of Physical Birth Fails

You argue that since we had no part in our first birth, we must have no part in our second birth. But that’s a false analogy.

Actually Johann, one may have more part in the natural birth than they do in their spiritual birth, since at least one has life before they ae born ~ but, truly not much difference.

The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the Word (Romans 10:17).
James 1:18 – "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth."
1 Peter 1:23 – "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God."

Johann, faith does cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but this is only true of one that has been given the power to believe, for we just read from 1st Corinthians 2:14 that the natural man cannot understand because they are spiritually discerned! This is not my opinion, but God very own testimony, which we know that he cannot lie.

Briefly, let us consider 1st Peter 1:23, which would hold true for James 1:18 as well.

1st Peter 1:23​

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

Scriptures are one cohesive whole and must be understood as such, and no scriptures will ever contradict another, which I know you know this. Knowing man's sate by nature and knowing that God must quicken one to life before they can see, hear, and obey, then when we read such scripture as this, we should become noble Christians and do what all godly, faithful men have ever done............seek the true sense of this verse by using the word of God. (Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15, etc.)

Please consider:

1st Corinthians 2:1​

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.”

All truths that we know comes from God's testimony from his word to us, and apart from that, we would not know any truth.

1st John 5:9,10​

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.”

To be short, we understand 1st Peter 1:23 to mean this: We are born again by the word of God, or by God witness that he has given in his word as to why, how, and by what means one is born again! Johann, what would you and I truly know about God, how we are born again and why we even need to be born again apart from God's very own testimony/witness in his word? You would not, and neither would any man, or even angels would know, because they desire to look into these things and know, for the word of God gives testimony as to the truths of these precious truths.

Let me stop here since I feel like I'm making this way too long, (not for me or you, but for others to even considering reading) maybe I'll come back later to finish.

 

[Jim]

@Jim


Agreed

Jim, this is true, and even I have said this so many times in the past fifteen years or so, since you and I have discuss scriptures. Of course the knowledge any child of God has come from what is written, no divine revelations outside of what is written ~ yet some men have greater knowledge, and that knowledge does not come through their own power, wisdom, but is given freely by the Spirit of God though a personal revelation as a reward for seeking, asking, searching, mediation, and faith, etc., and at times just because God wills to do so whomsoever he wills.

No, you are wrong. Such knowledge comes only from the study of God's written word as given to the apostles and prophets.

Matthew 13:11​

“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”

Matthew 13:16​

“But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Matthew 13:17​

“For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”

Ephesians 3:5​

“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”

John 8:56​

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

1 Peter 1:10​

“Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

See the proofs above just given! and there's more if needed. Plus, Jim, considered that the same truths reveal unto the apostles and prophets by the Spirit, must be be reveal unto us, or why would we even consider believing them if they are not ~ Christians are not rubber stamp followers of men, but we too search the scriptures and see if those things are so, trusting the same Spirit to open our understanding that we too may see, understand and embrace the same truths, we certainly do not trust our own hearts and wisdom, but God's words, through the Spirit of God.

All of those events concern the special revelation given to apostles and prophets. They have nothing to do with knowledge being bestowed upon any others. More specifically, neither you nor I nor anyone else today fall into the category of ones to whom the Holy Spirit speaks to and teaches directly.

 

[MTMattie]

No, you are wrong. Such knowledge comes only from the study of God's written word as given to the apostles and prophets.

All of those events concern the special revelation given to apostles and prophets. They have nothing to do with knowledge being bestowed upon any others. More specifically, neither you nor I nor anyone else today fall into the category of ones to whom the Holy Spirit speaks to and teaches directly.

Amen,