An Article on free will

[Johann]

In other words, she had already had a practicing faith.

Yes-

and the Lord opened her heart to respond -- In the conversion of Lydia God worked the same way he did in any other case of conversion. She came to faith through the preaching of the Word of God (Rom_10:17). A person's heart is said to be closed when that person is unwilling to hear and obey God's message. The heart is open when the message is received and believed.

Opened -- "thoroughly opened" Act_16:27 as the open door of the prison.
Open -- = διήνοιξεν = found 8 x, to open thoroughly.
Mar_7:34-35 - open ears
Luk_24:31 - open eyes
Luk_24:45 - open understanding

she attended -- Lydia "heeded" "responded" "gave heed" "paid attention" to Paul's message.

to the things spoken by Paul -- Luke has shared previously what particular things Paul spoke about on such occasions that he does not record the specific message again here. Luke say, "And when she had been baptized..." implying that this was one of the things she had been taught to do.

Be sure to notice the order of events.
a) She "heard us"
b) The "Lord opened her heart"
(Power not in the preacher but in the message)
c) She gave heed to the things spoken.
(Certain things appointed for her to do.)
(The power of germination is within the seed, and not the sower.)

J.

 

[Jim]

Not really. I can see where some would try to make that claim......maybe a few of them.

His disciples often didn't understand the parables. If you will focus on this fact, you will understand why Jesus spoke to them the way He did.

It was to challenge them to reason their existence with natural things/facts. This life we live teaches us about spiritual things. This life is patterned after spiritual things.

So much of the teachings of Jesus to the twelve was not understood by the twelve until after His ascension and the inspiration by the Holy Spirit on and following Pentecost. In that, they could recall His teachings in the parables and understand the meanings behind them.

 

[Johann]

If someone is a "Semipelangian" (1/2 Pelagian), then what is his other half? Calvinist? That's like saying one is half pregnant and the other half not pregnant. The idiots who came up with that term are just that: idiots.

I use the term Synergy in the same sense that the Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος) in Mark 1:20 and 1 Cor 3:9.

In Mark 1:20, the Greek words του κυριου συνεργουντος translate to Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers and in 1 Cor 3:9 the Greek words συνεργοι θεου translate to God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers.

(Mark 16:20) εκεινοι δε εξελθοντες εκηρυξαν πανταχου του κυριου συνεργουντος (Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) και τον λογον βεβαιουντος δια των επακολουθουντων σημειων σημειων αμην

(1 Cor 3:9) θεου γαρ εσμεν συνεργοι θεου (God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) γεωργιον θεου οικοδομη εστε

Literal Translation of 1 Cor 3:9: God for we are God's synergists, God’s cultivation, God’s structure you are.

People's attempt to warp the Apostolic meaning of the word συνεργοι will not succeed. The silly notion that "God and man cooperate equally," or that man initiates everything or that God does not get all of the glory is just silly.

The term synergy in the context of salvation and the relationship between God and man is indeed present in certain passages, but it’s important to carefully analyze the meaning and usage of the Greek word συνεργός (synergos) in Mark 1:20 and 1 Corinthians 3:9, and the broader theological implications.

Mark 1:20 – "Lord’s Synergists"
In Mark 1:20, the term συνεργούντος comes from συνεργός (synergos), meaning "fellow worker" or "co-worker." The verse reads:

"And immediately he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him." (KJV)


The Lord working with them (tou kuriou sunergountos). Genitive absolute.

This participle not in Gospels elsewhere nor is bebaiountos nor the compound epakolouthountōn, all in Paul’s Epistles. Interesting, right @synergy?

Pantachoū once in Luke. Westcott and Hort give the alternative ending found in L: “And they announced briefly to Peter and those around him all the things enjoined. And after these things Jesus himself also sent forth through them from the east even unto the west the holy and incorruptible proclamation of the eternal salvation.”


1) "And they went forth," (ekeinoi de ekselthontes) "Then those (of His chosen fellowship, the church) went out," as He mandated they should do, Joh_20:21; Act_1:8.

2) "And preached every where," (ekeruksan pantachou) "And proclaimed, announced, or heralded (the gospel) everywhere," wherever they went, on and on, as a spirit empowered company, after Pentecost, Joh_14:16; Act_1:8; Act_8:4; Act_13:3-5; Rom_1:4-16.

3) "The Lord working with them," (tou kuriou sun ergountos) "While the Lord was working with them," continually helping and blessing them, through the empowering of the Spirit, Act_10:43-44; Act_11:15; Act_13:4; Act_19:11-12.

4) ''And confirming the word," (kai ton logon bebaiountos) "And He was confirming the word repeatedly," Act_28:2-7; Act_28:9.

5) "With signs following. Amen." (dia ton epakolouthounton semeion) "Through the accompanying (confirming) signs." The signs that followed the miraculous testimonies and deeds of the early disciples and apostles were: 1) the diseased in body and spirit were healed, and 2) the poisonous viper did not harm Paul when it bit him, so that, both those who observed and those who heard of the incident on the Island, accepted that he was sent from God in power, with a message, Act_2:45; Heb_2:4.


1) "For we are labourers together with God." (Greek theou gar esmen sunergoi) "For we are fellow or together-workers of God." The ministry and the members of each congregation form God's custodial ministry of the Word and worship in this age.

2) "Ye are God's husbandry." (theou georgion) "of God" (ye are) "a husbandry or tillage." The church of Jesus Christ, each congregation, is God's husbandry in that community, to do His work, to bear fruit for Him.

3) "Ye are God's building." (Greek theou oikodome este) "Ye are God's house or domed up building." This refers to the church at Corinth, as God's dwelling place in Spiritual power, from which His work is to be done, 1Ti_3:15; Mar_13:34-37. Whether servant, layman, or porter each shall give account to the Lord at His return.

New Testament Terms that always refer to
The Church

To build for the greatest degree of honor and glory to God and rewards for believers one must labor in and through the covenant fellowship of the Lord's church, Eph_3:21. The New Testament Church is referred to as:
a) The Church (institutionally), Act_20:28; Eph_5:23-25.
b) The Bride of Christ, Joh_3:27-30; 2Co_11:2; Rev_19:7-9.
c) The house of God, Mar_13:34-37; 1Ti 3:15; 1Pe_2:5.
d) The Temple of God, 1Co_3:15-16; 2Co_6:16.
e) The Kingdom of heaven, Mat_13:1-58; Mat_16:18-19; Mat_25:1; Mat_25:14.
f) The body of Christ, Eph_1:22-23; 1Co_12:12-13.


In 1 Corinthians 3:9, the apostle Paul writes:

"For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." (KJV)

Here, συνεργοί θεοῦ is translated as "God's fellow workers" or "God's co-workers."

This indicates that Paul and his co-workers are working alongside God in His redemptive plan. However, like in Mark 1:20, this does not imply an equal partnership between man and God, but rather it reflects man's cooperative role in God's work, with God being the one who ultimately controls and empowers the process. The idea of synergy here refers to man's active participation in God’s plan, but the initiative and ultimate power lie with God.

Does This Suggest Equal Cooperation?
Your statement, “People's attempt to warp the Apostolic meaning of the word συνεργοι will not succeed,” holds some truth in that συνεργοί (fellow workers) does not imply equality in the relationship. God is still sovereign in both Mark 1:20 and 1 Corinthians 3:9.

Synergy in these passages does not mean that God and man are equally cooperating on the same level.

Rather, it means that God uses human agents to accomplish His purposes, but it is God’s will, power, and direction that ultimately make the work fruitful.


The idea that "God and man cooperate equally" in the theological sense of salvation does indeed need careful consideration.

In Christian theology, especially in soteriology, the understanding is that salvation is a work of God (Eph 2:8-9), and man’s cooperation (through faith, obedience, etc.) does not make man equal to God in the process of salvation.

Faith itself is a gift from God (Eph 2:8), and the Holy Spirit empowers the believer to act. Thus, synergy in salvation should not be confused with equivalence or an equal initiation of the process. God is the one who initiates, sustains, and completes the work of salvation, while human beings respond in faith and obedience.

In conclusion, while συνεργός (synergos) does indeed translate as "fellow worker" or "co-worker," the Apostolic use of the term does not suggest an equal, mutual cooperation between God and man.

It indicates man's participation in God's work, under God's guidance and authority. Thus, synergy in the context of salvation refers to human cooperation in the redemptive process, but God is the initiator, sustainer, and ultimate actor in salvation.

The idea that "God and man cooperate equally" is not a correct biblical understanding of synergy in the context of salvation.

Correct? I won’t respond to the other points you made, as they come across as quite aggressive.

By the way, the Apostles are no longer alive.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And a certain woman, named Lydia,.... Whether this woman was a Jewess or a Gentile, is not certain, her name will not determine; she might be called so from the country of Lydia, which was in Asia minor, and where was Thyatira, her native place; Horace makes frequent mention of one of this name (g) and it might be a Jewish name; we read of R. Simeon ben Lydia (h); and as these seem to be Jewish women that met at this oratory, she might be one:


Lydia, as described in Acts 16:14, was a worshiper of God (Greek: "θεοσεβής" or theosebes), which implies she was a Gentile who was devout and likely adhered to the God of Israel, worshiping Him as a proselyte or a God-fearer.

The term "worshiper of God" suggests she was not a full Jewish convert (proselyte), but rather someone who was sympathetic to Judaism and attended synagogue worship, as seen in the passage where Paul encounters her by the riverside during a time of prayer.

"A certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14, KJV)

2. Lydia's Discovery of the Messiah

It is not explicitly stated in Acts 16 that Lydia had already found her Messiah before meeting Paul. The passage tells us that she was listening to Paul's message, and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the gospel. This suggests that while Lydia may have been a devout worshiper of God, she had not yet fully recognized Jesus as the Messiah until she heard Paul's preaching.

"Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14)

This indicates that Lydia’s recognition of Jesus as the Messiah occurred after Paul’s preaching and through the work of the Holy Spirit in her life, leading her to believe in Christ.

So, while Lydia was indeed a devout worshiper of God and likely a Gentile who had embraced aspects of Judaism, it is more accurate to say that Lydia came to faith in Jesus as the Messiah after hearing Paul’s message, rather than having already found the Messiah before this encounter.

J.

Jews were SCATTERED EVERYWHERE.... The Jewish "diaspora" διασπορά

Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

If you can use such flimsy reasoning to claim she was a Gentile then I can certainly claim otherwise. Even Timothy was falsely claimed to be a Gentile. The loyalty of children of Israel to the proper Messiah has always come from their mothers. It is why Messiah only came from the line of Sarah.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So much of the teachings of Jesus to the twelve was not understood by the twelve until after His ascension and the inspiration by the Holy Spirit on and following Pentecost. In that, they could recall His teachings in the parables and understand the meanings behind them.

They even got that wrong at times after receiving the Spirit of God. Living a life in the Spirit of God isn't what most believe it to be. It is a challenge to separate ourselves to the voice of God in our lives. We often mistake our own voice for the voice of God.

It is often a challenge for me to properly deal with this issue among all of you. I come from a perspective of having accepting many things many of you reject..... a very long time ago. I've lived a life theologically contrary to most anything you can accept. That hinders us from being able to properly communicate at times....

But I'm not the only one with that issue. The same was true of Jesus Christ. The idea that Jesus wasn't successful in teaching the disciples properly is offensive to my thoughts. He taught them perfectly.

The gift of the Holy Spirit didn't enhance their understanding in the manner you see. The Spirit was "always with them" and Jesus had to leave. In fact Jesus even said.... "I WILL COME TO YOU".....

It is was a matter of time. The more time they spent with God the more it changed them.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Brethren, He is with us. Be patient. The things we have always been reluctant to accept of Him ARE EXACTLY what is hindering us now. Sometimes it takes "living" to learning what we should have always known.

 

[Johann]

Jews were SCATTERED EVERYWHERE.... The Jewish "diaspora" διασπορά

Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

If you can use such flimsy reasoning to claim she was a Gentile then I can certainly claim otherwise. Even Timothy was falsely claimed to be a Gentile. The loyalty of children of Israel to the proper Messiah has always come from their mothers. It is why Messiah only came from the line of Sarah.

Acts 16:14 – Worshiper of God
In Acts 16:14, Lydia is described as a worshiper of God (Greek: θεοσεβής or theosebes), a term typically used for Gentiles who were not full converts to Judaism but who practiced the Jewish faith, attending synagogue and observing the God of Israel.

“A certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Acts 16:14, KJV)

Worshipers of God were often Gentiles who had not fully converted to Judaism through circumcision but were sympathetic to Jewish teachings and attended synagogue worship. This term doesn't describe a Jewish woman but someone who was a God-fearing Gentile.

2. Lydia’s Place of Origin – Thyatira
Lydia is specifically noted as being from Thyatira, a city in the region of Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey). Thyatira was a city known for its Gentile population, particularly in trade and commerce, and there is no indication in the text that Lydia was a Jew. She is identified as a seller of purple, a profession linked to a Gentile trade, and this further suggests that she was not of Jewish descent, as this occupation was common among Gentiles, especially in cities like Thyatira.

3. The Context of the Passage – Gentile Converts and God-Fearers
The context of Lydia's conversion is also significant. Paul and his companions were in Philippi, a Roman colony where there were few Jews, and they met Lydia by the river, a place where Jews typically gathered for prayer. The fact that Lydia was among a group of Gentile women praying suggests that she was likely a Gentile who had not fully converted but was devout and seeking the God of Israel.

4. Reputable Scholarly Sources:
Several scholars have noted Lydia’s Gentile status based on these contextual clues.

F. F. Bruce, in his commentary The Book of Acts (NICNT), notes that Lydia was a God-fearing Gentile, and the fact that she is described as a worshiper of God implies she was a Gentile who was interested in Judaism but had not fully converted.

John Stott, in The Message of Acts (The Bible Speaks Today), also explains that Lydia was a Gentile who worshiped the God of Israel but was not a full proselyte.

Craig S. Keener, in his The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament, suggests that Lydia's role as a seller of purple and her connection to the God-fearers in the Jewish community makes her a Gentile convert.

While the Bible does not explicitly state Lydia’s ethnic background, the evidence from Acts 16:14, her profession, and her designation as a worshiper of God all suggest that Lydia was a Gentile who had not fully converted to Judaism but was devout in her faith and receptive to the message of the gospel. This would align with the scholarly consensus that Lydia was a Gentile who became a follower of Christ after hearing Paul’s preaching.

Sarah is significant in the Bible because she is the mother of Isaac, and the promise of the Messiah is linked to Isaac, Sarah’s son. God makes a covenant with Abraham that the Messiah would come through his line, but specifically, it's through Isaac, not through his other sons like Ishmael (who was born to Sarah's maid, Hagar). In Genesis, God explicitly tells Abraham that the promise will go through Isaac:

Genesis 17:19: “And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.”

Genesis 21:12: “In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”

So, when you say that the Messiah came from Sarah's line, you're right in that the promise of the Messiah goes through Isaac, Sarah’s son.

However, it’s not just any descendant of Isaac that the Messiah comes through. The Bible prophesies that the Messiah will come from the tribe of Judah, which is one of Isaac's son Jacob's (also called Israel) twelve tribes. In fact, Genesis 49:10 gives us the prophecy that the ruler or Messiah will come from Judah’s line:

Genesis 49:10: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”
So, while the Messiah comes through Isaac, the final line comes through Judah, one of Isaac’s grandsons. Jesus, for example, is traced back to Judah, as the New Testament shows:

Matthew 1:1-2: “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren.”

Luke 3:34: “Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham...”

In summary, the Messiah does come from Sarah’s line, but it’s important to remember that the line specifically goes through Isaac and Judah, fulfilling all the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob about the coming of the Messiah.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Acts 16:14 – Worshiper of God
In Acts 16:14, Lydia is described as a worshiper of God (Greek: θεοσεβής or theosebes), a term typically used for Gentiles who were not full converts to Judaism but who practiced the Jewish faith, attending synagogue and observing the God of Israel.

“A certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Acts 16:14, KJV)

Worshipers of God were often Gentiles who had not fully converted to Judaism through circumcision but were sympathetic to Jewish teachings and attended synagogue worship. This term doesn't describe a Jewish woman but someone who was a God-fearing Gentile.

2. Lydia’s Place of Origin – Thyatira
Lydia is specifically noted as being from Thyatira, a city in the region of Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey). Thyatira was a city known for its Gentile population, particularly in trade and commerce, and there is no indication in the text that Lydia was a Jew. She is identified as a seller of purple, a profession linked to a Gentile trade, and this further suggests that she was not of Jewish descent, as this occupation was common among Gentiles, especially in cities like Thyatira.

3. The Context of the Passage – Gentile Converts and God-Fearers
The context of Lydia's conversion is also significant. Paul and his companions were in Philippi, a Roman colony where there were few Jews, and they met Lydia by the river, a place where Jews typically gathered for prayer. The fact that Lydia was among a group of Gentile women praying suggests that she was likely a Gentile who had not fully converted but was devout and seeking the God of Israel.

4. Reputable Scholarly Sources:
Several scholars have noted Lydia’s Gentile status based on these contextual clues.

F. F. Bruce, in his commentary The Book of Acts (NICNT), notes that Lydia was a God-fearing Gentile, and the fact that she is described as a worshiper of God implies she was a Gentile who was interested in Judaism but had not fully converted.

John Stott, in The Message of Acts (The Bible Speaks Today), also explains that Lydia was a Gentile who worshiped the God of Israel but was not a full proselyte.

Craig S. Keener, in his The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament, suggests that Lydia's role as a seller of purple and her connection to the God-fearers in the Jewish community makes her a Gentile convert.

While the Bible does not explicitly state Lydia’s ethnic background, the evidence from Acts 16:14, her profession, and her designation as a worshiper of God all suggest that Lydia was a Gentile who had not fully converted to Judaism but was devout in her faith and receptive to the message of the gospel. This would align with the scholarly consensus that Lydia was a Gentile who became a follower of Christ after hearing Paul’s preaching.

Sarah is significant in the Bible because she is the mother of Isaac, and the promise of the Messiah is linked to Isaac, Sarah’s son. God makes a covenant with Abraham that the Messiah would come through his line, but specifically, it's through Isaac, not through his other sons like Ishmael (who was born to Sarah's maid, Hagar). In Genesis, God explicitly tells Abraham that the promise will go through Isaac:

Genesis 17:19: “And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.”

Genesis 21:12: “In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”

So, when you say that the Messiah came from Sarah's line, you're right in that the promise of the Messiah goes through Isaac, Sarah’s son.

However, it’s not just any descendant of Isaac that the Messiah comes through. The Bible prophesies that the Messiah will come from the tribe of Judah, which is one of Isaac's son Jacob's (also called Israel) twelve tribes. In fact, Genesis 49:10 gives us the prophecy that the ruler or Messiah will come from Judah’s line:

Genesis 49:10: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah...until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”
So, while the Messiah comes through Isaac, the final line comes through Judah, one of Isaac’s grandsons. Jesus, for example, is traced back to Judah, as the New Testament shows:

Matthew 1:1-2: “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren.”

Luke 3:34: “Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham...”

In summary, the Messiah does come from Sarah’s line, but it’s important to remember that the line specifically goes through Isaac and Judah, fulfilling all the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob about the coming of the Messiah.

J.

There is nothing in your response that justifies anything "Gentile". Nothing.

The man is not without the women nor the women without the man. So don't leave the women out. You're leaving the WOMEN out of your theology.

Did you know Sarah was the sister of Abraham? Same father, different mothers. Does that mean anything to you?

 

[Johann]

Did you know Sarah was the sister of Abraham? Same father, different mothers. Does that mean anything to you?

Yes, I’m aware that Sarah was also the half-sister of Abraham.

According to Genesis 20:12, Abraham himself clarifies this when he speaks to King Abimelech, saying, "And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." This means that Sarah and Abraham shared the same father, Terah, but had different mothers.

The fact that Sarah was Abraham’s half-sister is interesting for a few reasons, though it doesn't change the broader biblical narrative significantly.

1. Lineage and Promise
The shared ancestry of Abraham and Sarah might remind us of the importance of family lines in the biblical narrative, especially in the promises of God. Even though Abraham and Sarah were half-siblings, God’s covenant with Abraham was passed through Isaac (the son born to Sarah), and it was through Isaac’s descendants that the Messiah would come, as God promised in Genesis 17:19.

This relationship doesn’t negate the covenant God made with Abraham nor the promise made to Sarah to be the mother of Isaac, through whom the promise would be fulfilled.

2. Theological Significance
From a theological perspective, the fact that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister might raise questions about familial relationships and the purity of the line of promise, but it’s important to note that in the context of ancient times, marrying a half-sibling wasn’t uncommon. It wasn’t until later in biblical history that such practices were prohibited, as seen in Leviticus 18. This doesn’t detract from the sovereignty of God in choosing the line through which He would bring about His purposes.

3. The Narrative and God’s Sovereignty
God’s choice of Isaac, the son of Abraham and Sarah, was part of His divine plan for redemption and fulfillment of promises, irrespective of Sarah being Abraham's half-sister. God works within human circumstances, sometimes in ways that don’t conform to later cultural norms, yet His purposes always come to pass.

4. The Line of the Messiah
The fact that Sarah and Abraham were half-siblings doesn’t alter the lineage of the Messiah. The promise to Abraham was always about Isaac, and through Isaac’s descendants—especially the line of Judah—the Messiah would come. The genealogy of Jesus Christ, as noted in Matthew 1:1-2, is traced back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who was the son of Isaac and Rebekah.


While the fact that Sarah and Abraham were half-siblings is an interesting detail, it doesn’t significantly change the theological or historical trajectory.

The covenant and promise from God were through Isaac, and the Messiah was to come through his line, particularly through Judah. This aspect of Sarah's relationship to Abraham doesn't affect God's redemptive plan as revealed throughout Scripture.

Lineage and Inheritance through the Father
In biblical Israel, the father’s line was typically the one through which lineage, inheritance, and tribal affiliation were traced. This is evident in both the genealogies and in the way the promises and covenants were passed down. For example:

Genesis 12:7 — The promise made to Abraham about his descendants being a blessing to the nations passes to Isaac, not through Ishmael.
Genesis 25:19-26 — The covenant promise is passed to Jacob (Israel), the son of Isaac, and not Esau.
In ancient Israel, tribal identity and inheritance rights were generally determined by the father’s lineage. This is why the genealogies in the New Testament trace Jesus' lineage through Joseph, his legal father (Matthew 1:1-16, Luke 3:23-38), despite Jesus’ miraculous virgin birth.

2. Role of the Mother in Jewish Identity
While lineage passed through the father, the Jewish identity of a child was determined by the mother’s lineage in Jewish law. According to Jewish Halakhah, a child born to a Jewish mother is considered Jewish, regardless of the father's ethnicity. This is because Jewish identity was traditionally matrilineal (passed through the mother).

For example:

In the book of Ruth, Ruth (a Moabite) marries Boaz, and their son, Obed, becomes part of the Davidic line (Ruth 4:17). While Obed’s identity is Jewish by virtue of his father Boaz, Ruth's role is acknowledged as pivotal.

John 8:41 reflects this notion, as Jesus' opponents claim to be children of Abraham, indicating the importance of familial and ethnic identity through the father.

3. The Lineage of Jesus
The question of Jesus’ lineage is somewhat different. The prophecies of the Messiah stated that He would come from the line of David, specifically from Judah (Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:16). Even though Jesus was born of Mary, and the virgin birth meant He did not inherit Joseph's biological nature, His legal lineage (as per Jewish customs) was still through Joseph, because Joseph was legally His father.

Matthew 1:1-16: Traces Jesus' genealogy through Joseph, showing that Jesus was legally a descendant of David and Abraham, fulfilling the Messianic prophecies.

Luke 3:23-38: Offers a different genealogy (often thought to reflect Mary’s line, though it says Joseph's) but still affirms that Jesus is of Davidic descent.

In essence, Jesus' legal right to the throne of David was secured through Joseph, even though His biological birth was of Mary, fulfilling the prophecy that the Messiah would be from David's line (Matthew 1:16, Luke 1:32-33).

4. A Few Additional Considerations
The prophetic promises regarding the Messiah (coming from David’s line) were fulfilled through Joseph because he was from the house of David. Jesus did not inherit a biological link through Joseph, but Joseph’s legal adoption of Jesus gave Him the right to the Davidic throne (this is critical for understanding the genealogies in Matthew and Luke).

Jesus' actual birth (according to the Gospels) was a miraculous conception through Mary (Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-25), making Him fully divine and fully human.

Lineage and inheritance traditionally followed the father’s line in ancient Israel.
Jewish identity was established through the mother.
In the case of Jesus, His legal descent from David is traced through Joseph in the genealogies of Matthew and Luke, fulfilling the Messianic prophecies of a Davidic king.

Do you have a problem with the meaning of proselyte?

J.

 

[Johann]

There is nothing in your response that justifies anything "Gentile". Nothing.

And there's nothing in your response that justifies anything "Jewish"-Nada.

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, I’m aware that Sarah was also the half-sister of Abraham.

Do you have a problem with the meaning of proselyte?

J.

There is no proselyte without Messiah. Zero. None.

Israel was designed to share Messiah with the world. They didn't. Messiah did it Himself.

My issue is with how your theology dismisses the necessity of Sarah, Tamar, Ruth and all the other women that God chose to bring about Messiah to the world.

Your bloviating doesn't change those facts. You're choosing between competing arguments. They are not compatible with one another. They are there to challenge your thoughts and for you to make choices. You're making the wrong choice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And there's nothing in your response that justifies anything "Jewish"-Nada.

J.

Easy.....Sure there is....

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Before Christ, faith was "shut up" in the lineage of the faithful mothers of Messiah and their descendants. Sure... those ungodly Pharisee claimed Abraham but they didn't care anything about Sarah. Nothing. Nothing at all.

You're making the same mistakes.

Isn't it funny how you're here arguing over a women named Lydia......

 

[Johann]

There is no proselyte without Messiah. Zero. None.

Israel was designed to share Messiah with the world. They didn't. Messiah did it Himself.

My issue is with how your theology dismisses the necessity of Sarah, Tamar, Ruth and all the other women that God chose to bring about Messiah to the world.

Your bloviating doesn't change those facts. You're choosing between competing arguments. They are not compatible with one another. They are there to challenge your thoughts and for you to make choices. You're making the wrong choice.

Is your shoulders strong enough to carry that swollen head of yours?

J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is your shoulders strong enough to carry that swollen head of yours?

J.

I like that........ it means you're paying attention.

No need to get offended. Keep digging. You'll find it yourself. You don't need me.

 

[Johann]

Easy.....Sure there is....

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Before Christ, faith was "shut up" in the lineage of the faithful mothers of Messiah and their descendants. Sure... those ungodly Pharisee claimed Abraham but they didn't care anything about Sarah. Nothing. Nothing at all.

You're making the same mistakes.

Isn't it funny how you're here arguing over a women named Lydia......

Since there's nothing in Scripture that says Lydia was Jewish and you are the one making mistakes here-

How Many Times Does Scripture Say This?
This is the only time in the New Testament where faith is explicitly described as being "shut up" (συγκλειόμενοι – from συγκλείω, meaning to enclose, confine, or imprison).

What Does It Mean?
Paul is saying that before faith came, people were under the law, essentially imprisoned until Christ came to reveal the way of faith.

This does not mean that faith was absent before Christ—many had faith (e.g., Abraham, David, Ruth)—but rather that the full revelation of faith in Christ was not yet made manifest.

The context (Galatians 3:22-25) contrasts the law as a temporary guardian with the arrival of faith in Christ, which sets people free from the constraints of the law.

Does This Support the Idea That Faith Was "Shut Up" in a Maternal Lineage?

No, because Paul is talking about the law acting as a custodian, not about faith being limited to a biological lineage. In fact, Galatians 3:26-29 immediately states that all who have faith in Christ are now part of Abraham’s seed:

Galatians 3:28-29
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

Thus, faith was not “shut up” in a maternal line, but rather faith in Christ was not fully revealed until His coming.

Faith Was Never "Shut Up" in a Particular Lineage of Mothers

The biblical narrative consistently presents faith as something based on trust and obedience in God, not physical lineage through mothers or fathers.



Genesis 15:6 states that Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness—showing that faith was never restricted to a biological line but rather to those who trusted in the promises of God.



Ruth, a Moabite woman, was grafted into Israel by faith (Ruth 1:16) and became an ancestor of David and ultimately Jesus.



If faith had been locked in a biological lineage, she would have been excluded.



Rahab, a Canaanite, also joined the people of God by faith (Hebrews 11:31, James 2:25).

Thus, faith was never confined to a maternal line—it has always been about those who respond to God in trust and obedience.



2. Ephesians 2:12 in Context

The passage says that Gentiles were once without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise. However, the next verses (Ephesians 2:13-14) explain that this status changed through Christ, who brought both Jews and Gentiles near by His blood:



Ephesians 2:13: "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."



Ephesians 2:14: "For He is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us."



This passage does not say faith was “shut up” in a certain lineage but rather that Gentiles were formerly outside of the covenants.



Through Jesus, the barrier between Jew and Gentile is removed. Faith is now accessible to all, not just to those in a particular maternal line.



3. Misunderstanding of the Pharisees and Abraham



Your argument claims that the Pharisees only cared about Abraham and ignored Sarah, implying that Sarah’s lineage was somehow the key to faith.



However, nowhere in Scripture does it say that salvation or faith came through Sarah's maternal line specifically.



The Pharisees’ error was trusting in their physical descent from Abraham (John 8:39-44) rather than in faith in God. Jesus rebuked them, saying, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39), meaning that true descendants of Abraham are those who have faith (cf. Romans 4:16, Galatians 3:7).



Paul explicitly states in Galatians 3:28-29 that all who are in Christ are Abraham’s seed—not by physical descent but by faith.



4. Your non nonsensical argument About Lydia



Your dismissive remark about "arguing over a woman named Lydia" suggests a misunderstanding of why Lydia is important in Acts 16.

Lydia is not being used as a proof of maternal lineage but rather as an example of a Gentile woman who worshiped God and responded in faith to the gospel.



This directly refutes the idea that faith was “shut up” in a specific lineage before Christ. Lydia was not of Jewish descent, yet she responded to the gospel (Acts 16:14-15), proving that faith was always about the heart, not ethnicity.



Faith was never restricted to a specific maternal lineage—Old Testament and New Testament examples show faith was based on a relationship with God, not physical descent.



Ephesians 2:12 simply states that Gentiles were once alienated from the covenants of promise, but through Christ, they are now included.



The Pharisees’ mistake was trusting in physical descent from Abraham, but Jesus and Paul both affirm that faith—not lineage—is what matters.



Lydia is relevant because she was a Gentile believer, proving that faith was never limited to a physical lineage, even before Christ.



Your argument about faith being confined to a maternal lineage does not align with Scripture. Faith has always been about trusting in God's promises, not genetics.



J.

 

[Johann]

Observing whats in the context:

How can they hear if they are not of God ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So WHO-in this context, were NOT of God?

J.

 

[brightfame52]

So WHO-in this context, were NOT of God?

J.

Read it, this is in the context,

How can they hear if they are not of God ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Johann]

Read it, this is in the context,

How can they hear if they are not of God ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Who, in this context, heard God's words?

The direct recipients of John 8:47 were the Jewish religious leaders (primarily the Pharisees) who were arguing with Jesus in John 8. These were the same people who:

Rejected Jesus’ claims (John 8:13).
Misunderstood His teachings (John 8:19, 8:27).
Took pride in being Abraham’s descendants but did not act like Abraham (John 8:39-40).
Were called “of their father the devil” by Jesus (John 8:44).
Sought to kill Jesus (John 8:37, 8:59).

What Does "He That is of God Hears God's Words" Mean?
The phrase "He that is of God heareth God's words" (ὁ ὢν ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ τὰ ῥήματα τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούει) means that only those who truly belong to God—those who are receptive to His truth—can recognize and accept His words.

Jesus explains why these Jewish leaders do not hear Him:

They are not “of God” (ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ) – This does not refer to creation, since all people are created by God. Rather, it refers to spiritual origin—those who are spiritually aligned with God will receive His words, while those who reject Christ prove that they are not truly God’s.

Their hearts were hardened – Similar to Isaiah 6:9-10, they were unable (or unwilling) to perceive the truth.
They were not Abraham’s true children – Though physically descended from Abraham, Jesus makes clear that spiritual descent is what matters (John 8:39).

How Can They Hear If They Are Not of God?

Jesus is stating that those who are “of God” will respond to His voice. Those who reject Him prove that they are not of God. This aligns with John 10:26-27:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

This means that those who are spiritually aligned with God (His sheep) will hear and respond, while those who are spiritually opposed will reject Him.

J.

 

[brightfame52]

Who, in this context, heard God's words?

The direct recipients of John 8:47 were the Jewish religious leaders (primarily the Pharisees) who were arguing with Jesus in John 8. These were the same people who:

Rejected Jesus’ claims (John 8:13).
Misunderstood His teachings (John 8:19, 8:27).
Took pride in being Abraham’s descendants but did not act like Abraham (John 8:39-40).
Were called “of their father the devil” by Jesus (John 8:44).
Sought to kill Jesus (John 8:37, 8:59).

What Does "He That is of God Hears God's Words" Mean?
The phrase "He that is of God heareth God's words" (ὁ ὢν ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ τὰ ῥήματα τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούει) means that only those who truly belong to God—those who are receptive to His truth—can recognize and accept His words.

Jesus explains why these Jewish leaders do not hear Him:

They are not “of God” (ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ) – This does not refer to creation, since all people are created by God. Rather, it refers to spiritual origin—those who are spiritually aligned with God will receive His words, while those who reject Christ prove that they are not truly God’s.

Their hearts were hardened – Similar to Isaiah 6:9-10, they were unable (or unwilling) to perceive the truth.
They were not Abraham’s true children – Though physically descended from Abraham, Jesus makes clear that spiritual descent is what matters (John 8:39).

How Can They Hear If They Are Not of God?

Jesus is stating that those who are “of God” will respond to His voice. Those who reject Him prove that they are not of God. This aligns with John 10:26-27:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

This means that those who are spiritually aligned with God (His sheep) will hear and respond, while those who are spiritually opposed will reject Him.

J.

Read it, this is in the context,

How can they hear if they are not of God ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Since there's nothing in Scripture that says Lydia was Jewish and you are the one making mistakes here-

How Many Times Does Scripture Say This?
This is the only time in the New Testament where faith is explicitly described as being "shut up" (συγκλειόμενοι – from συγκλείω, meaning to enclose, confine, or imprison).

What Does It Mean?
Paul is saying that before faith came, people were under the law, essentially imprisoned until Christ came to reveal the way of faith.

This does not mean that faith was absent before Christ—many had faith (e.g., Abraham, David, Ruth)—but rather that the full revelation of faith in Christ was not yet made manifest.

The context (Galatians 3:22-25) contrasts the law as a temporary guardian with the arrival of faith in Christ, which sets people free from the constraints of the law.

Does This Support the Idea That Faith Was "Shut Up" in a Maternal Lineage?

No, because Paul is talking about the law acting as a custodian, not about faith being limited to a biological lineage. In fact, Galatians 3:26-29 immediately states that all who have faith in Christ are now part of Abraham’s seed:

There is no concept of biological lineage in my theology. However, you can't ignore the fact that the "truth of God" was contained in the teachings of faithful Jews. The "real Jews" who was one inwardly. Israel had an obligation to produce fruit among other nations. Their failures to accomplish this because of their own personal sin is the story of salvation in Christ alone.

While the large remainder of this world did as they pleased without inference from God, God worked among a very few to preserve the narrative of Jesus Christ to humanity.

I'm asking you to include all of the faithful. Even these "women" you seem to want to resist.

Remove faithful women from the narrative and you lose all context of the promise made to Eve. The hope of Adam was in Eve...... The hope of the Incarnate Christ was in Eve. In Mary. The seed of the women. Not the seed of Adam nor even of Abraham. It was in the seed of the woman. The "egg" of the Incarnation that meet the Full Glory of God in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

What Lydia knew came from faithful women. Even Timothy's faith came from women.

Most men today abandon the woman to nothing more than means of their own self gratification.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If someone is a "Semipelangian" (1/2 Pelagian), then what is his other half? Calvinist? That's like saying one is half pregnant and the other half not pregnant. The idiots who came up with that term are just that: idiots.

I use the term Synergy in the same sense that the Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος) in Mark 1:20 and 1 Cor 3:9.

In Mark 1:20, the Greek words του κυριου συνεργουντος translate to Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers and in 1 Cor 3:9 the Greek words συνεργοι θεου translate to God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers.

(Mark 16:20) εκεινοι δε εξελθοντες εκηρυξαν πανταχου του κυριου συνεργουντος (Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) και τον λογον βεβαιουντος δια των επακολουθουντων σημειων σημειων αμην

(1 Cor 3:9) θεου γαρ εσμεν συνεργοι θεου (God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) γεωργιον θεου οικοδομη εστε

Literal Translation of 1 Cor 3:9: God for we are God's synergists, God’s cultivation, God’s structure you are.

People's attempt to warp the Apostolic meaning of the word συνεργοι will not succeed. The silly notion that "God and man cooperate equally," or that man initiates everything or that God does not get all of the glory is just silly.

Well said!