What is silly is for you to think that mountains, rivers, sun, moon, stars, black holes can groan and be in pain.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I never said that. Nor did I even imply it. I said "life". The mountains are stone and rock. The sun is a big ball of "gas" that is burning. Our moon is devoid of life. Black holes..... well who knows what black holes are.....
Life on this earth GROANS in agony from the corruption that has been placed upon them. Obviously you don't know how to read.
Such ignorances is common with egomaniacs like yourself. You think you're the center of everything. I love what Jesus said.... You might want to consider it....
Luk 12:27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
As stated
You have issues
You go out of your way to bring a false witness against a brother in the Lord
Goodbye
infuse
Definition, Synonyms, Translations of infuse by The Free Dictionarywww.thefreedictionary.com
Infuse essentially conveys "To put into or introduce as if by pouring".
impart
Definition, Synonyms, Translations of impart by The Free Dictionary
Impart essentially conveys "To grant a share of; bestow".
Now let's look at the definition of infuse
To cause a person to become filled with a certain quality or principle
That matches your interpretation of Eph 2:8.
Where God causes man to be filled with faith.
Your theology teaches an infused faith.
Your argument just overlooked the fact faith is not the result of works if faith was the gift rather than salvation
Your interpretation also overlooks the fact it is your works not God's works which are in view and denied
It would be silly to say faith is not a result of your work but would make all sense to say salvation is not a result of your works.
And of course, there is no gender agreement between faith and the relative Greek pronoun touto (That), so faith is not its antecedent
So the text is not saying faith is not of yourself which is contrary to scripture
The concept that faith is unilaterally given by God is inconsistent with the biblical data
Christ rebukes for a lack of faith
Matthew 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8; Luke 12:28; Mark 4:40
Christ commends great faith
Matthew 8:10; Luke 7:9
Thy faith or your faith
Matthew 9:22; 15:28; Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 7:50; 8:48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32 Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20
if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
Myers, J. D.. What is Faith?: How to Know that You Believe (Christian Questions Book 3) (p. 136). Redeeming Press. Kindle Edition.
The third position PCE is unbiblical.
You are arguing we were seminally in Adam and Eve thus sinned with them ?
The notion that God condemns all of Adam’s descendants for his transgression—a sin they neither initiated nor committed—contradicts the clear principles of divine justice. God has consistently declared, “Parents shall not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents; each individual shall be put to death for their own sin” (Deut. 24:16; 2 Kings 14:6; 2 Chronicles 25:4).
Lord Jesus Christ's context is inside of His declaration “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
Johann
Well-known member
Something to consider here brother.
I’ve been thinking about your concern that it would be unjust for us to bear guilt because of Adam’s sin, and that verses like Deuteronomy 24:16 seem to contradict the idea of inherited guilt. I get where you’re coming from—it feels unfair, especially if we assume that guilt can only come from personal actions.
But I think there’s a bigger biblical picture we need to keep in view, especially when it comes to how Paul talks about Adam and Christ.
First, let’s make sure we’re not mixing categories. Deuteronomy 24:16 is about human legal justice in Israel’s courts. It says that children shouldn't be executed for their fathers’ crimes, and vice versa.
That’s about criminal law, not about how God deals with humanity as a whole. Paul, on the other hand, is dealing with something covenantal and representative—he’s not talking about individuals getting punished randomly, but about how Adam’s act brought sin and death into the world because he stood as a representative head for the whole human race.
You see this clearly in Romans 5:12–21, especially where Paul says, “through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Now, if Paul meant that everyone dies only because they sin personally, it would make no sense that he brings up people who didn’t sin like Adam (Rom. 5:14)—including infants. But they still die. That’s because Adam’s sin had a judicial effect on all humanity. It’s not about being blamed for something we didn’t do—it’s about being in him when he did it, covenantally.
This might sound foreign to modern individualism, but it’s the same logic that explains why we can be declared righteous through Christ’s obedience. If we deny the representative nature of Adam’s sin, we actually undermine the representative nature of Christ’s righteousness.
Isaiah 53 makes this even clearer. “The LORD laid on him the iniquity of us all.” That’s not metaphor—it’s substitution.
Christ wasn’t punished for His own sins; He had none. He bore ours. If you reject the idea of legal substitution and representation, then the whole gospel begins to unravel.
Also, a quick note about the Position of Corporate Election (PCE)—I know it tries to affirm that individuals are only elect “in Christ” and avoids the idea of pre-temporal individual election. That part’s worth considering. But when it shifts the fall into something more corporate in sociology than covenantal in theology, it undercuts what Paul is arguing in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. Paul doesn’t just say Adam and Christ affected their respective communities—he says their actions determined the status of those communities.
You’re either in Adam and condemned, or in Christ and justified. It’s binary and judicial, not gradual and cultural.
And just to lay it out more clearly, here’s the comparison Paul draws between Adam and Christ—this isn’t my structure, it’s Paul’s:
Adam and Christ in Paul’s Theology
In Adam In Christ
One man’s sin brought death to all One man’s obedience brings life to many
Many were made sinners Many will be made righteous
Death reigned because of one Believers reign in life through One
All die in Adam All in Christ will be made alive
Earthly image (dust) Heavenly image (glory)
First Adam: living soul Last Adam: life-giving Spirit
See: Romans 5:12–21; 1 Corinthians 15:21–49
I get that this isn’t easy to grasp at first, but the thing that helped me most was realizing that if I throw out Adam’s representational guilt to protect my idea of fairness, I end up throwing out the representational righteousness of Christ too—and that’s a price I can’t afford.
This from Utley.
"one man" This generic phrase (lit. henos anthrôpou) is used to represent Adam (Rom_5:12; Rom_5:16-19) or Jesus (Rom_5:15 [twice], 17 [twice], 18,19). They each represent a group or community (i.e., "many," cf. Rom_5:15 [twice], 19[twice]; "all," cf. Rom_5:12-13; Rom_5:18 [twice]).
"death through sin" Augustine first coined the term "original sin." It describes the consequences of Adam/Eve's choices in Genesis 3. Their rebellion has affected all of creation. Humans are impacted by
1. a fallen world system
2. a personal tempter
3. a fallen nature
Original sin (Rom_5:12-14; Rom_5:16 a,17) forms a partnership with personal sin (Rom_5:12 d,16b) to make all humans sinful! Sin results in "death" (cf. Rom_1:32; Rom_6:13; Rom_6:16; Rom_6:21; Rom_6:23; Rom_7:5; Rom_7:9-11; Rom_7:13; Rom_7:24; Rom_8:13).
The Jerome Biblical Commentary (p. 308) mentions the rabbinical tradition that there were three periods of history.
1. Adam - Moses
2. Moses - Messiah
3. Messiah - eschaton
If Paul was thinking of these divisions then
1. Adam - Moses (original sin, no law but death)
2. Moses - Messiah (personal sin, violation of law)
3. Messiah - (freedom from the Law/law through grace)
"death spread to all men" The major thrust of this paragraph is the universality of the consequences of sin (cf. Rom_5:16-19; 1Co_15:22; Gal_1:10), which is death.
1. spiritual death - Gen_2:17; Gen_3:1-24; Isa_59:2; Rom_7:10-11; Eph_2:1; Col_2:13; Jas_1:15
2. physical death - Gen_3:4-5; Gen_5:1-32
3. eternal death - Rev_2:11; Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8
"because all sinned" All humans sin in Adam corporately (i.e., inherited a sinful state and a sinful propensity.) Because of this each person chooses to sin personally and repeatedly. The Bible is emphatic that all humans are sinners both corporately and individually (cf. 1Ki_8:46; 2Ch_6:36; Psa_14:1-2; Psa_130:3; Psa_143:2; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Isa_9:17; Isa_53:6; Rom_3:9-18; Rom_3:23; Rom_5:18; Rom_11:32; Gal_3:22; 1Jn_1:8-10).
Yet it must be said that the contextual emphasis (cf. Rom_5:15-19) is that one act caused death (Adam) and one act causes life (Jesus). However, God has so structured His relationship to humanity that human volition is a significant aspect of "lostness" and "justification." Humans are volitionally involved in their future destinies! They continue to choose sin or they choose Christ. They cannot affect these two choices, but they do volitionally show to which they belong!
The translation "because" is common, but its meaning is often disputed. Paul used eph' hô in 2Co_5:4; Php_3:12; and Php_4:10 in the sense of "because." Thus each and every human chooses to personally participate in sin and rebellion against God. Some by rejecting special revelation, but all by rejecting natural revelation (cf. Rom_1:18 to Rom_3:20).
Thanks.
J.
I am going to heaven. But yes, this body will be burned up in a crematorium. And that probably not too long from now.
Most of the life here on this earth is not human life. For the most part it lives in the present, neither considering the past nor the future. And certainly is not groaning and waiting for anything.
Correct me if I am wrong, but in this post you have been arguing for original sin. I must disagree strongly. The very concept of "sinning in Adam corporately" is an affront to God.
Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die......20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
With respect to Romans 5, the death being spoken of in verses 12-19 is not physical death, but rather spiritual death. Physical death is an integral feature of the physical creation. We know that because of the existence of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden. If physical death was not intrinsic to the physical life of Adam and Eve, there would have been no reason for the tree of life. It was there to keep them from dying physically so long as they were obedient to God. When they sinned, God ejected them from the garden, in part, to keep them from having access to the fruit of the tree of life (Gen 3:22).
The point of "sinning that was not like the transgression of Adam" and "sin not counted where there is no law" tells us that there was indeed law before the "law was given". Paul had said earlier, that Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Babies who die, do not die because of Adam's sin. They die because that is the way the world works; that is the way the world was created to work. That is what Paul meant when he said that sin is not counted where there is no law. So then where is there no law? There is no law in those too young or too mentally deficient to even perceive of such a thing as God's law.
With respect to verse 18 and 19, the discussion there is only about the difference between the effect of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience. The effects of both deal with mankind universally as they are born into the world. In effect, Paul is telling us that the death of Jesus on the cross was to negate anything like original sin. That is, had Jesus not been obedient and had He not given himself as a sacrifice to God, then the whole of mankind would have been condemned. But as it is, given the actuality of Jesus' obedience, all mankind comes into this world free of any such condemnation. All men come into this world justified and righteous. They come into this world free from sin. The free gift of righteousness that Paul is referring to in Romans 5 is not that conferred by God upon the repentant believing sinner; but rather the righteousness of all mankind as they are born into the world. They remain in that righteousness until that time that they, themselves, have sinned. At that point in time in their life, they die spiritually.
The effect of the obedience of Jesus on the cross on the effect of the sins of the individual is taken up in the following chapter, chapter 6, where Paul tell us that "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life". That newness of life is precisely justification and regeneration.
Thus while so many point to Romans 5 as a statement of original sin, it in fact does just the opposite. It is a statement of original grace. The only sin that anyone is held accountable for is his own.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself
Your first post to me in this thread is quoted below, showing your defense for your purported free-will.
The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com); therefore, the exact concept is faith in Galatians 5:22-23. The Apostle Paul's list of Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exclusively nouns, even the exact Greek word πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) is a noun, yet your heart converts the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) into an adjective of πιστός (Strong's 4103 - pistos - Faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing- BibleHub.com) for you to adulterate the Holy Scripture into Free-willian Philosophy.
The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).
Therefore, faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a Fruit of the Spirit, the work of God, without ever being your work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21), TibiasDad, for the King of Glory declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
Free-willians idolize themselves for in the free-willian heart lies the deception that faith is the work of the free-willian's flesh, and "the works of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE IN WHOSE BLOOD IS THE NEW COVENANT!!!
Johann
Well-known member
Couple of inconsistencies Jim.
Misapplication of Ezekiel 18: Individual Moral Responsibility vs. Federal Headship in Salvation History
Your appeal to Ezekiel 18:20 (“the soul that sinneth, it shall die...”) is often marshaled to refute original sin, but this text is not addressing covenantal federal headship. It addresses legal injustice in Israelite jurisprudence, not the covenantal structure of Adamic representation found in Romans 5:12–21.
The context of Ezekiel 18 is clearly socio-legal: Israel had adopted a fatalistic proverb—"the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge"—to deny personal responsibility for national judgment. God rebukes this as false fatalism.
Ezekiel is not addressing why death exists or how Adam's sin affects humanity, but rather that individuals in the present nation of Judah are being judged for their own actions, not their fathers’. It deals with proximate generational guilt, not Adamic imputation.
Furthermore, even the Mosaic Law that Ezekiel upholds made provision for corporate judgment (cf. Exod 20:5; Josh 7). Therefore, Ezekiel’s text must be read within its own context and cannot be used as a theological lens to override Romans 5 or the Adam-Christ typology.
2. Spiritual vs. Physical Death: A False Dichotomy
Your assertion that Romans 5:12–21 refers only to spiritual death and not to physical death is exegetically untenable.
In Romans 5:12, Paul writes:
“δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν, καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν”
(“Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death passed to all men”).
Paul’s reference to death (θάνατος) must include physical death, because:
He explicitly says in v.14: “Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam’s transgression”—referring to people who died even though they had not transgressed a known law (like infants).
This proves that death is a judicial consequence of Adam’s sin, even apart from personal guilt, and must be physical, since spiritual death is not “observable” in infants.
Further, in Romans 8:20–23, Paul speaks of creation groaning under corruption, which includes decay and mortality, the effects of Adam’s sin.
The notion that the Tree of Life merely prolonged natural mortality without sin contradicts Genesis 2:17 (“in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”), which shows death was a penalty, not a natural process.
3. "Sin is not counted where there is no law" (Rom. 5:13): What Paul Actually Means
Romans 5:13 says, “until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
Your claim that this refers to mentally deficient or infantile persons is reading something into the text that is not present.
Paul is dealing with epochs in redemptive history: Adam to Moses, and Moses to Christ. This is about covenantal revelation, not cognitive capacity.
Yet Paul insists that death reigned even before Sinai. This demonstrates that guilt existed, even when specific transgressions were not counted due to lack of revealed Torah. That guilt came from Adam’s sin, not individual violation.
This affirms federal imputation, not innocence. Paul even underscores that Adam is a τύπος τοῦ μέλλοντος—“a type of the one who was to come” (Rom. 5:14). Typology demands representative parallelism, not personal autonomy.
4. Misreading Romans 5:18–19: Corporate Grace ≠ Original Righteousness
“All mankind comes into this world free of any such condemnation.”
This is not what Paul says. Romans 5:18–19 presents a parallelism, but not a symmetrical one:
v.18: “So then as through one trespass [παραπτώματος] came condemnation [κατάκριμα] to all men, so through one act of righteousness [δικαιώματος] comes justification [δικαίωσιν ζωῆς] to all men.”
The aorists indicate completed events with continuing effect, and they do not describe what people are born into, but what is applied through identification—either “in Adam” or “in Christ.”
Paul is not saying everyone is automatically justified at birth; rather, he is contrasting two humanities: those who remain in Adam and those united to Christ. Elsewhere (Rom. 6:3–5), he specifies that union with Christ’s righteousness happens through baptism into His death, not by birth.
The statement “all men come into the world justified” is Pelagian and violates the flow of Romans. If all are born justified, why would Paul elsewhere declare that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23), and that “there is none righteous, no, not one” (Rom. 3:10)?
5. Babies Die Because of Adam’s Sin, Not Merely Natural Processes
The idea that babies die simply because “that is the way the world works” is a naturalistic assertion foreign to the biblical worldview.
Romans 8:20–21 tells us that creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, i.e., God in response to Adam’s sin.
Infants dying is not merely biological entropy; it is the judicial overflow of the fall. That is Paul’s entire point in Romans 5: that death is not natural but penal, and its spread demonstrates the forensic transmission of Adam’s guilt.
6. Theological Danger of Denying Federal Headship
To deny federal headship in Adam is to unravel the basis of justification in Christ, which is also federal.
If Adam’s sin cannot be imputed to us, then neither can Christ’s righteousness be reckoned to us (cf. 2 Cor 5:21).
J.I. Packer writes: “The assertion that ‘the righteousness of one’ is imputed to believers is unintelligible if ‘the disobedience of one’ is not likewise imputed.” (cf. Intro to Owen’s “Death of Death”).
Even the early Jewish context affirms this: 4 Ezra 7:118, 2 Baruch 23:4, and Wisdom 2:24 all understood that death entered through Adam, not through individual sin alone. Paul’s view is in continuity with this, not contradiction.
Thus your argument offered is internally inconsistent, exegetically faulty, and ultimately destructive to the very gospel it seeks to uphold. The structure of Romans 5 demands that Adam is the representative head whose sin is imputed, just as Christ is the new head whose obedience is imputed. Denying the former nullifies the latter.
To put it simply: if we are not condemned in Adam, we cannot be justified in Christ.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
“The gift is not grace; the gift is eternal life.”
Your statement is imprecise when judged by Pauline theology, because grace (χάρις) and gift (δωρεά) are not mutually exclusive, nor is grace merely the means of delivering the gift. Rather, in Paul's language, grace is the basis or source of the gift, but the gift may be multifaceted, and sometimes grace itself is called a gift.
a. Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift (τὸ δὲ χάρισμα) of God is eternal life (ζωὴ αἰώνιος) in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Here, χάρισμα (charisma) is a noun derived from χάρις, meaning a gracious gift—a gift rooted in unmerited favor.
In this verse, eternal life is the gift, yes—but it is a χάρισμα, a thing that exists because of grace, and its nature as a gift cannot be separated from grace.
b. Romans 5:15–17
“...much more have the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”
“...those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness...”
Paul distinguishes between grace (χάρις) and gifts that flow from grace (δωρεά, χάρισμα): e.g., righteousness, justification, and ultimately eternal life.
Therefore, grace is not itself the gift in the narrowest sense, but it is the operative power through which gifts like righteousness and eternal life are given.
So-
Your statement "The gift is not grace" is accurate only in the sense that grace is not the final object of the believer's inheritance; however, in Pauline theology, grace and gift are inseparably connected (cf. Eph 2:8–9: “by grace… through faith… it is the gift of God”).
J.
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Yes, of course I have defended the truth of the free will for all. But I didn't say anything like your accusation. I did not claim or suggest that, as you said in your reply #7878, "free-will is separated from God in such a way that you can choose God in your own initiative." That is strictly from you, not me. You lie in that way a lot. You need to stop it. I did not say any such thing.
With all due respect:
There is no covenantal federal headship imputing the sins of one to anyone else. That is a man-made construct. The attempt to apply, Paul's statement in Romans 5:12 that "all have sinned" to infants at birth is refuted by the very next statement in Romans 5:13 that "sin is not counted where there is no law", together with Romans 2:12-16, showing that there was/is law even if there was/is no law of Moses. It is only with the very young and the mentally deficient that it can be said that there is no law.
You cannot correctly or logically change the meaning of "all men" mid-sentence in Romans 5:18 or the meaning of "the many" mid-sentence in Romans 5:19 in order to defend a false concept of original sin.
Finally, the "you shall surely die" of Genesis 2:17 can only be said of dying spiritually in sin.
And your implication of 2 Corinthians 5:21as being condemned in Adam a requirement for being justified in Christ is simply not there.
The Holy Spirit reveals to me that the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14), so my faith is the work of God because the Word of God tells me “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, you are free to deny the above blessings by saying they are not directed to you.
Importantly, the Lord says "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).
Lord and God Jesus Christ declares His Sovereignty as shown in His sayings above, and He amplifies the treasure of the Word of God with "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
