All men

[TibiasDad]

Yes you have.

That is your burden to prove. All you have to do is falsify my argument that ‘God’s determination is what necessitates X to occur, and when its necessity is fixed.’

Specifically demonstrate what action can be done? (Don’t worry, I am not holding my breath, so take your time.)


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So I reject both complete FREE WILL to choose God and HARD DETERMINISM to compel men to reject God.

He who walks the middle of the road, gets hit from both directions!


Doug

 

[atpollard]

I’m sure your response will be that man wants to go against God, but who determines what a man wants in your perspective?

Man’s free but fallen nature. Why does a Lion behave like a Lion and not like a Cow or a Bird … it’s innate nature. The innate nature of man is NOT “Godward”. That was the message of all those scripture verses that I quoted. It is not a matter of human logic, it is a matter of God-breathed TRUTH. So we must either accept the Truth that God has revealed, or we choose to reject the truth that God has revealed.

Is it not God?

No, it is not God. Some “Calvinists” would say that it is (those that embrace Hard Determinism where God ordains man’s reprobation as an active choice of God). I am unqualified to pass judgement on the beliefs of others except to point out where God’s word has said differently. Which I have.

Man’s fallen nature belongs to man.
God gives some men a new heart that changes their nature and, therefore, their wants.
The desire for God, belongs to God.

Thus, I embrace the narrow “Doctrines of Grace” while rejecting the broader “Reformed Theology”. I am neither FREE WILL nor DETERMINIST … I am COMPATIBALIST and I am a Reformed Baptist (from a tradition NOT part of the Protestant Reformation). There is simply no John Calvin in my background … just a Paul and John and Scripture in vernacular.

 

[atpollard]

He who walks the middle of the road, gets hit from both directions!


Doug

We Credobaptists are accustomed to being martyred for choosing SCRIPTURE over “the church”.
At one point a Catholic Bishop wrote that more Credobaptists had been executed by the church than all other heresies combines.

 

[atpollard]

That is your burden to prove. All you have to do is falsify my argument that ‘God’s determination is what necessitates X to occur, and when its necessity is fixed.’

Specifically demonstrate what action can be done? (Don’t worry, I am not holding my breath, so take your time.)


Doug

I think we are misunderstanding one another (and it is my poor wording at the core).

I acknowledge that your argument is …

“What we have said is that if one is determined by God to do X, then God’s determination is what makes it necessary to happen. This logically removes man’s responsibility for he has no other option but to do X.”

… and it is a good logical argument.

For my part, I reject all “logical arguments” that cannot be supported by SCRIPTURE and I do not believe that SCRIPTURE supports an argument that: God exerts so much control that man has no responsibility.

The key is understanding what SCRIPTURE states about human nature (free, fallen … human nature).
What does it mean that “The leopard cannot change its spots”?

 

[atpollard]

• Ephesians 1:4–5: Paul writes that God chose and predestined believers before creation according to His will.

He predestined them to be holy…

This seems a distinction without a difference. Can one be “holy” and “unsaved”? Can one be “saved” and not be “holy”? The critical point is not WHAT they were predestined for (salvation vs holiness) but that GOD is the one that did the CHOOSING and PREDESTINING. (God is the “He” that is the subject in the sentence. “Chose” and “predestined” are the verbs in the sentence which describe what the “subject” - GOD - did.)

 

[TibiasDad]

I am COMPATIBALIST

And so was @civic (to which he can attest), and I have always held that to be a ‘black equals white’ position. Free will and determination are antithetical concepts, meaning both cannot be true in the same context and circumstance. You cannot logically be free in your own will and determined by a higher authority’s decision, at the same point of reference.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

• Ephesians 1:4–5: Paul writes that God chose and predestined believers before creation according to His will.

This seems a distinction without a difference. Can one be “holy” and “unsaved”? Can one be “saved” and not be “holy”? The critical point is not WHAT they were predestined for (salvation vs holiness) but that GOD is the one that did the CHOOSING and PREDESTINING. (God is the “He” that is the subject in the sentence. “Chose” and “predestined” are the verbs in the sentence which describe what the “subject” - GOD - did.)

4For he chose us… Paul is referring specifically to those who are already believers

in him… that is in Christ who gave himself up for the sake of mankind

before the creation of the world…that is in eternity past.


to be holy and blameless in his sight… This phrase is the specific object of the “choosing”. Having foreseen who would believe, he chose that the character of those who would believe in Christ would be “holy and blameless” in his judgment of them. The choosing is not a choice of individuals to be saved, but a choice of what those who would believe would be like.


In love 5he predestined…after having foreseen those who are now believing


us…those already believing


for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…Again, he had predestined the mode of acceptance and inclusion of those who believed. Not persons but the protocol of accomplishment.


Doug

 

[Kampioen]

Hard determinism postulates that man does not CHOOSE to reject God, but is forced to reject God.

What is an example of being forced to reject God?

And what made them want what they wanted to begin with?

 

[TibiasDad]

We Credobaptists are accustomed to being martyred for choosing SCRIPTURE over “the church”.
At one point a Catholic Bishop wrote that more Credobaptists had been executed by the church than all other heresies combines.

I am a Credobaptist; both in the sense of baptism and that scripture is the only grounds of belief.

Our differences of interpretation does not negate either one of us from being such.

Doug

 

[atpollard]

What is an example of being forced to reject God?

And what made them want what they wanted to begin with?

Sorry, I get into enough trouble defending what I DO believe in without seeking extra trouble by trying to defend positions that I do not hold. The core of HARD DETERMINISM is that God decides everything … as in EVERYTHING … so those that are saved are saved because God decided they would be saved and those damned are damned because God decided that they would be damned. It is not my theory, I just know the definition of Hard Determinism.

 

[atpollard]

I am a Credobaptist; both in the sense of baptism and that scripture is the only grounds of belief.
Our differences of interpretation does not negate either one of us from being such.

Doug

That was a “distinctive” that drew me to the Baptist Church … freedom of Christians to read scripture, reach different conclusions, and still both FELLOWSHIP together. The Baptist church (local congregation) that is 100% Free Will or 100% Doctrine of Grace [General or Particular in Baptist terms] is the exception rather than the rule. Most congregations are mixed General and Particular Baptist members.

 

[atpollard]

4For he chose us… Paul is referring specifically to those who are already believers

That is where I break from Hard determinists. Scripture claims (and I acknowledge) that GOD CHOSE those who are believers.

I see no claim that God chooses men to NOT BELIEVE (which Hard Determinism claims). Rather, I see in scripture that all men have a fallen nature that naturally leads them to choose to NOT BELIEVE … unless God does something (like draw them, give them a new heart, choose them for salvation).

 

[atpollard]

In love 5he predestined…

Yes.

after having foreseen those who are now believing

What verse actually SAYS this?
Where is the scripture that teaches the “God looks through the corridors of time” doctrine of “foreseeing”?

 

[TibiasDad]

I see no claim that God chooses men to NOT BELIEVE (which Hard Determinism claims).

It is a purely logical necessity where there are only two options, namely, to believe or not believe, if God chooses a set of people to believe, that act effectively chooses that the others will not believe. (Assuming your theological principle, that God is totally in control of all aspects of the salvation process.)

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes.


What verse actually SAYS this?
Where is the scripture that teaches the “God looks through the corridors of time” doctrine of “foreseeing”?

Rom 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[TibiasDad]

Rather, I see in scripture that all men have a fallen nature that naturally leads them to choose to NOT BELIEVE …

Rom 10:14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Paul teaches that the only thing needed to potentially believe is something to believe in and someone to tell us what we need to believe.

God gives us something to believe in; preachers tell us that God has something to believe in; we have to choose if we believe their message!

unless God does something (like draw them, give them a new heart, choose them for salvation).

God always has to act first:
He has to give us something to believe in, an offer of hope, good news.

His Spirit is responsible for convicting us of our sin and guilt before God, and thus our need of the good news God has offered.

God establishes the perimeters and protocols by which he will do what he promises in the good news, and that is that we believe, have faith in, trust his character to keep his promise.

God gives us a choice and the means to choose through Christ’s life, death, and resurrection. Our choice is the last step in the process, and God grants us that freedom! I say again, I see no value in the term “Justice” if there is no personal choice free of mandate from a higher authority.

Doug

 

[atpollard]

(Assuming your theological principle, that God is totally in control of all aspects of the salvation process.)

Umm … God is in control of salvation; man is in control of damnation. It is a SCRIPTURAL paradox (like all good paradoxes, it may appear false while in fact being true … that is what makes it a paradox instead of a contradiction).

Salvation (of God):

• One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. - Acts 16:14 [ESV]
• For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [ESV]
• For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV]

Damnation (of man):

• And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [ESV]
• "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]
• And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3 ESV]

 

[atpollard]

Rom 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

That says GOD does all the foreknowing and predestining and calling and justifying and glorifying.
It says NOTHING about “because men did something” (you added that) and it says nothing about God “looking down the corridors of time” (you added that).

“Those God foreknew” indicates that it was PEOPLE (who) God knew beforehand and not FACTS (what) they would do.

As I stated, where is the doctrine of God looking through time actually taught in scripture? It is not in the verses that you quoted.

 

[atpollard]

Paul teaches that the only thing needed to potentially believe is something to believe in and someone to tell us what we need to believe.

Paul teaches no such thing.

Romans 10:14-15 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Paul is merely stating that the LOST must remain LOST unless they hear the Good News. In other words, Paul is claiming that there is no salvation apart from the Gospel (because there is no salvation apart from Jesus). That makes it important for us to share what we know … it is the only path from lost to saved.

However, not all soil is “good soil” and it is not the job of the soil to remove the rocks, burn the weeds, and break up the hard ground … the farmer (God) prepares the soil and makes it “good soil” (like this):

• One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. - Acts 16:14 [ESV]