All men

[TibiasDad]

Umm … God is in control of salvation; man is in control of damnation. It is a SCRIPTURAL paradox (like all good paradoxes, it may appear false while in fact being true … that is what makes it a paradox instead of a contradiction).

Salvation (of God):

• One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. - Acts 16:14 [ESV]

Indeed, the conviction of the Spirit cause us to hear/understand the truth about our standing with God and God’s offer of forgiveness and mercy, and allows us to respond personally to that message.

For instance, Lydia believed, but many do not believe. We see this demonstrated in Acts 17 with Paul in Athens:

32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

• For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [ESV]

Yep, and the standard set by God is that he will have mercy and grant eternal life to anyone that believes in him! (Not anyone to whom God gives belief.)

God is the only one who can forgive and save us.

• For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV]

Again, and by your own admission by placing this verse in the category of “Salvation”, the gift is salvation, being saved. The means by which salvation occurs is “by grace through faith”. Salvation is “not of our own doing”, “not by works” (which in Paul’s mind is always referring to works of keeping the Law”!).

Again, God cannot possibly be obligated to act with kindness by any action of man; thus, salvation cannot possibly be “by works”. And since God is the offended party, only he can grant reconciliation to mankind. (The cheating spouse is never the one to grant the reconciliation of the relationship. Only the offended spouse can do that.)

So even if man would be able to seek God’s forgiveness, God is not obligated to do so.

Damnation (of man):

• And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [ESV]
• "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]
• And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3 ESV]

I would never say anything other than this. We are guilty before God. Period. We cannot make God reconcile with us. Only God can do that! Our desires are irrelevant and ineffectual. Only God’s desire and power are effectual to reconciliation.


Doug

 

[atpollard]

• For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV]

It is always amusing that when I bring up Ephesians 2:8-9, my synergist brothers and sisters always immediately run to “not works of the OT Law” (which is the law that Paul was referring to in the verse). Yet I am forever pointing out the weightier matter that salvation “is not of your own doing” and salvation “is the gift of God”. It beggars the imaginations that some are so comfortable claiming it IS of themselves (as salvation is a cooperative joint venture that God does not accomplish alone … the definition of Free Will synergism) and the gift must be accepted (which IS a reason for boasting in that you HAVE earned the gift by choosing to accept it while others did not, making you better than the damned). You embrace any works except those of the OT Law as acceptable.

No, I see it as 100% “gift” and 100% “of God” and 100% “not of our own doing” … not a 50/50 partnership salvation.

 

[civic]

• For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV]

It is always amusing that when I bring up Ephesians 2:8-9, my synergist brothers and sisters always immediately run to “not works of the OT Law” (which is the law that Paul was referring to in the verse). Yet I am forever pointing out the weightier matter that salvation “is not of your own doing” and salvation “is the gift of God”. It beggars the imaginations that some are so comfortable claiming it IS of themselves (as salvation is a cooperative joint venture that God does not accomplish alone … the definition of Free Will synergism) and the gift must be accepted (which IS a reason for boasting in that you HAVE earned the gift by choosing to accept it while others did not, making you better than the damned). You embrace any works except those of the OT Law as acceptable.

No, I see it as 100% “gift” and 100% “of God” and 100% “not of our own doing” … not a 50/50 partnership salvation.

Agreed salvation is of the Lord. But God requires faith in the gospel to be saved. That is mans responsibility to believe the gospel. When man believes God saves. Not before.

 

[Kampioen]

Sorry, I get into enough trouble defending what I DO believe in without seeking extra trouble by trying to defend positions that I do not hold. The core of HARD DETERMINISM is that God decides everything … as in EVERYTHING … so those that are saved are saved because God decided they would be saved and those damned are damned because God decided that they would be damned. It is not my theory, I just know the definition of Hard Determinism.

Well since you are not a hard determinist and don't believe God decides everything, then what does He *not* decide? And who decides those things that God doesn't decide?

 

[atpollard]

Agreed salvation is of the Lord. But God requires faith in the gospel to be saved. That is mans responsibility to believe the gospel. When man believes God saves. Not before.

On that, you and I agree.

We will probably never agree on the SOURCE of that belief … is it something innate to man that manifests itself (as you claim) or is it part of the gift of God that is our salvation (as I claim). Fortunately, it is NOT an important point. Our opinions do not change reality and ultimately we both agree that the road to salvation passes through both belief and grace … so the exact order is a small matter above our pay grade. As Paul advises: Let each be firmly convinced in their own mind, and Let no man judge the servant of another.

 

[atpollard]

Well since you are not a hard determinist and don't believe God decides everything, then what does He *not* decide? And who decides those things that God doesn't decide?

Q. Who decides the things that God doesn’t decide?
A. Man decides some of them.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:18-21 [ESV]

• Who is responsible for the choosing not to honor God? God or the men?

… and what DID God do:

• v.24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
• v.26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
• v.28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

God surrendered men to follow THEIR natural desires rather than HIS will.
Q. What then does God not decide?
A. Reprobation … one thing God has no need to decide is which person will rebel; who will sin; will men seek God or follow their heart and hide (just as Adam did) … because 100% of mankind exercises his free and fallen nature to follow his natural desires away from God.

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [ESV]

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]

 

[Kampioen]

Q. Who decides the things that God doesn’t decide?
A. Man decides some of them.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:18-21 [ESV]

• Who is responsible for the choosing not to honor God? God or the men?

… and what DID God do:

• v.24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
• v.26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
• v.28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

God surrendered men to follow THEIR natural desires rather than HIS will.
Q. What then does God not decide?
A. Reprobation … one thing God has no need to decide is which person will rebel; who will sin; will men seek God or follow their heart and hide (just as Adam did) … because 100% of mankind exercises his free and fallen nature to follow his natural desires away from God.

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [ESV]

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]

But then didn't God monergize Adam's descendents to what Adam decided? The naturalness was then monergized rather than truly natural on its own.

And was Adam libertarian? If so, then God intentionally left the monergistic fate of mankind up to Adam.

But if Adam was monergized too, then altogether your view still nets out to double predestination like Calvin.

 

[atpollard]

But then didn't God monergize Adam's descendents to what Adam decided? The naturalness was then monergized rather than truly natural on its own.

And was Adam libertarian? If so, then God intentionally left the monergistic fate of mankind up to Adam.

But if Adam was monergized too, then altogether your view still nets out to double predestination like Calvin.

Is what God asks impossible for man? I mean, does God demand that all men be perfect before He will save them, or does God simply demand that men turn to Him for salvation before He will save them?

If God requires that which is possible (even trivially easy) to do, and men freely REFUSE to do that one thing (as scripture states all men do) … then WHO is responsible? In what sense is this disobedience being compelled by God?

(Since you ignored them the first time, here is the Word of God again)

• For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:18-21 [ESV]
• Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, - Romans 1:24
• For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; - Romans 1:26
• And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:28
• And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [ESV]
• "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]

It is a form of Double Predestination, but most people really have no interest in an honest discussion of PREDESTINATION because they (like you) only desire to equate it to ‘Positive-positive’ schema Double Predestination (where God is equally active in both salvation and damnation and acts to compel both equally). You never want to discuss or acknowledge ‘Positive-negative’ schema Double Predestination (where God takes an active role in salvation, but is merely a passive bystander in damnation who allows men to damn themselves without jumping in and forcibly stopping all their bad choices).

And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. - Genesis 3:8 [ESV]

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:20 [ESV]

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3 [ESV]

It is human nature (our natural instinct) to sin and to hide from (rather than run to) God … always was, always is, always will be … unless God does something about it (like John 6:44-45 or Ephesians 2:4-5).

 

[atpollard]

But then didn't God monergize Adam's descendents to what Adam decided? The naturalness was then monergized rather than truly natural on its own.

And was Adam libertarian? If so, then God intentionally left the monergistic fate of mankind up to Adam.

But if Adam was monergized too, then altogether your view still nets out to double predestination like Calvin.

Setting aside THEOLOGY and LOGIC and SCRIPTURE, if you will permit me a moment to speak personally (from the heart):

I was not always a Christian. Before God laid claim to me (a story in itself), I genuinely embraced ‘nihilism’ [the belief that not only is there no God, but there is no ‘good’ or ‘evil’ … they are meaningless concepts created by individuals. If I kill a man to take money to survive, I am a monster but if I join the Army and kill 100 men I am a hero … where is the morality in that? Therefore no actions have any innate meaning - good or evil]. Towards that end, I set people on fire before they had a chance to shoot me. I smuggled drugs across state lines.

Even then, I accepted that MY CHOICES were my choices. No “victim” mentality. Circumstances made certain choices logical, but I made every choice that I made. Every sinful act was mine … it was my choice.

I viewed God like I viewed Santa and the Easter Bunny … a fiction that you told children that reality teaches you does not exist. Thus the only choice that was NOT mine, was the choice to believe in God … to believe that Jesus had saved me. That was the last thing on my mind when God came looking for me and claimed me … literally told me that effective immediately, I belonged to Him and not to me.

So I don’t buy the “we are all victims of Monergism and Double Predestination” whining speech. We make our choices and then most people just don’t want to own them. (It was my parents, it was my circumstances, it was my race, society, the government … anyone and everyone is responsible except the man in the mirror) … balderdash! We choose to do wrong and, without any prompting, we do just like Adam: First we hide, then we blame everyone else (including God).

Not me. For all my many sins, I will not play the hypocrite and also refuse to own what I did. We (people) freely choose sin over God because we want to. The Devil didn’t need to MAKE us do it.