That is your burden to prove. All you have to do is falsify my argument that ‘God’s determination is what necessitates X to occur, and when its necessity is fixed.’
Man’s free but fallen nature. Why does a Lion behave like a Lion and not like a Cow or a Bird … it’s innate nature. The innate nature of man is NOT “Godward”. That was the message of all those scripture verses that I quoted. It is not a matter of human logic, it is a matter of God-breathed TRUTH. So we must either accept the Truth that God has revealed, or we choose to reject the truth that God has revealed.
No, it is not God. Some “Calvinists” would say that it is (those that embrace Hard Determinism where God ordains man’s reprobation as an active choice of God). I am unqualified to pass judgement on the beliefs of others except to point out where God’s word has said differently. Which I have.
We Credobaptists are accustomed to being martyred for choosing SCRIPTURE over “the church”.
I think we are misunderstanding one another (and it is my poor wording at the core).
And so was @civic (to which he can attest), and I have always held that to be a ‘black equals white’ position. Free will and determination are antithetical concepts, meaning both cannot be true in the same context and circumstance. You cannot logically be free in your own will and determined by a higher authority’s decision, at the same point of reference.
4For he chose us… Paul is referring specifically to those who are already believers
I am a Credobaptist; both in the sense of baptism and that scripture is the only grounds of belief.We Credobaptists are accustomed to being martyred for choosing SCRIPTURE over “the church”.
At one point a Catholic Bishop wrote that more Credobaptists had been executed by the church than all other heresies combines.
Sorry, I get into enough trouble defending what I DO believe in without seeking extra trouble by trying to defend positions that I do not hold. The core of HARD DETERMINISM is that God decides everything … as in EVERYTHING … so those that are saved are saved because God decided they would be saved and those damned are damned because God decided that they would be damned. It is not my theory, I just know the definition of Hard Determinism.
That was a “distinctive” that drew me to the Baptist Church … freedom of Christians to read scripture, reach different conclusions, and still both FELLOWSHIP together. The Baptist church (local congregation) that is 100% Free Will or 100% Doctrine of Grace [General or Particular in Baptist terms] is the exception rather than the rule. Most congregations are mixed General and Particular Baptist members.
That is where I break from Hard determinists. Scripture claims (and I acknowledge) that GOD CHOSE those who are believers.
Yes.
What verse actually SAYS this?
It is a purely logical necessity where there are only two options, namely, to believe or not believe, if God chooses a set of people to believe, that act effectively chooses that the others will not believe. (Assuming your theological principle, that God is totally in control of all aspects of the salvation process.)
Rom 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
