All men

[TibiasDad]

Yes you have.

That is your burden to prove. All you have to do is falsify my argument that ‘God’s determination is what necessitates X to occur, and when its necessity is fixed.’

Specifically demonstrate what action can be done? (Don’t worry, I am not holding my breath, so take your time.)


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So I reject both complete FREE WILL to choose God and HARD DETERMINISM to compel men to reject God.

He who walks the middle of the road, gets hit from both directions!


Doug

 

[atpollard]

I’m sure your response will be that man wants to go against God, but who determines what a man wants in your perspective?

Man’s free but fallen nature. Why does a Lion behave like a Lion and not like a Cow or a Bird … it’s innate nature. The innate nature of man is NOT “Godward”. That was the message of all those scripture verses that I quoted. It is not a matter of human logic, it is a matter of God-breathed TRUTH. So we must either accept the Truth that God has revealed, or we choose to reject the truth that God has revealed.

Is it not God?

No, it is not God. Some “Calvinists” would say that it is (those that embrace Hard Determinism where God ordains man’s reprobation as an active choice of God). I am unqualified to pass judgement on the beliefs of others except to point out where God’s word has said differently. Which I have.

Man’s fallen nature belongs to man.
God gives some men a new heart that changes their nature and, therefore, their wants.
The desire for God, belongs to God.

Thus, I embrace the narrow “Doctrines of Grace” while rejecting the broader “Reformed Theology”. I am neither FREE WILL nor DETERMINIST … I am COMPATIBALIST and I am a Reformed Baptist (from a tradition NOT part of the Protestant Reformation). There is simply no John Calvin in my background … just a Paul and John and Scripture in vernacular.

 

[atpollard]

He who walks the middle of the road, gets hit from both directions!


Doug

We Credobaptists are accustomed to being martyred for choosing SCRIPTURE over “the church”.
At one point a Catholic Bishop wrote that more Credobaptists had been executed by the church than all other heresies combines.

 

[atpollard]

That is your burden to prove. All you have to do is falsify my argument that ‘God’s determination is what necessitates X to occur, and when its necessity is fixed.’

Specifically demonstrate what action can be done? (Don’t worry, I am not holding my breath, so take your time.)


Doug

I think we are misunderstanding one another (and it is my poor wording at the core).

I acknowledge that your argument is …

“What we have said is that if one is determined by God to do X, then God’s determination is what makes it necessary to happen. This logically removes man’s responsibility for he has no other option but to do X.”

… and it is a good logical argument.

For my part, I reject all “logical arguments” that cannot be supported by SCRIPTURE and I do not believe that SCRIPTURE supports an argument that: God exerts so much control that man has no responsibility.

The key is understanding what SCRIPTURE states about human nature (free, fallen … human nature).
What does it mean that “The leopard cannot change its spots”?

 

[atpollard]

• Ephesians 1:4–5: Paul writes that God chose and predestined believers before creation according to His will.

He predestined them to be holy…

This seems a distinction without a difference. Can one be “holy” and “unsaved”? Can one be “saved” and not be “holy”? The critical point is not WHAT they were predestined for (salvation vs holiness) but that GOD is the one that did the CHOOSING and PREDESTINING. (God is the “He” that is the subject in the sentence. “Chose” and “predestined” are the verbs in the sentence which describe what the “subject” - GOD - did.)

 

[TibiasDad]

I am COMPATIBALIST

And so was @civic (to which he can attest), and I have always held that to be a ‘black equals white’ position. Free will and determination are antithetical concepts, meaning both cannot be true in the same context and circumstance. You cannot logically be free in your own will and determined by a higher authority’s decision, at the same point of reference.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

• Ephesians 1:4–5: Paul writes that God chose and predestined believers before creation according to His will.

This seems a distinction without a difference. Can one be “holy” and “unsaved”? Can one be “saved” and not be “holy”? The critical point is not WHAT they were predestined for (salvation vs holiness) but that GOD is the one that did the CHOOSING and PREDESTINING. (God is the “He” that is the subject in the sentence. “Chose” and “predestined” are the verbs in the sentence which describe what the “subject” - GOD - did.)

4For he chose us… Paul is referring specifically to those who are already believers

in him… that is in Christ who gave himself up for the sake of mankind

before the creation of the world…that is in eternity past.


to be holy and blameless in his sight… This phrase is the specific object of the “choosing”. Having foreseen who would believe, he chose that the character of those who would believe in Christ would be “holy and blameless” in his judgment of them. The choosing is not a choice of individuals to be saved, but a choice of what those who would believe would be like.


In love 5he predestined…after having foreseen those who are now believing


us…those already believing


for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…Again, he had predestined the mode of acceptance and inclusion of those who believed. Not persons but the protocol of accomplishment.


Doug

 

[Kampioen]

Hard determinism postulates that man does not CHOOSE to reject God, but is forced to reject God.

What is an example of being forced to reject God?

And what made them want what they wanted to begin with?