Victoria
Active Member
That's what Arius believed & taught, Jesus being created, & mortal, like newer translations suggest. It doesn't make it true.
Doesn't the Bible tell us not to listen to man's fables?
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Doesn't the Bible tell us not to listen to man's fables?
Runningman
Active Member
Get ahold of yourself. I just explained clearly what my point is in my previous long post. Are you going to actually address what I said or continue to gaslight the conversation?
Runningman
Active Member
Right, but doesn't the KJV describe Jesus as having died too? The Bible (not only the KJV) says the First and the Last was dead. What do you think it means?
Revelation 1 KJV
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
You still failed. You shared nothing of a paraphrase. You said something about being god-like that made no sense to the passage.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes I did point out how the Word is not The God in John 1:1. So the word as god is either personal or qualitative. I provided the reasons why a personal interpretation of the word as god doesn't make any sense in accordance with the rest of the Bible. The word as god is qualitative or has the qualities of God, hence it is not The God. This is where I win, but I think you haven't noticed it yet. You can't find the Word being God anywhere in the Bible, but I can find the word of God being godly, yet a thing nevertheless.
Victoria
Active Member
Kinda the point of needing a saviour, don't you think?
How else could God defeat sin, & death so that we too could one day share in that victory w/ Him?
A created mortal being, however? Nah
There's a reason for why John said the following in two of his Hebrew epistles. If it was just a created mortal being they boasted about, it'd be a laughing stock among the people.
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 John 4:3
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2 John 1:7
You just shared your belief but did not share how John 1:1 can be paraphrased to express what you think you mean. I get the feeling that you simply do not understand the verse.
Runningman
Active Member
I shared my belief based on the broad testimony of Scripture. If you actually had examples of the Word being God, saying, or doing anything then you may have a point. Otherwise, you are wasting your time trying to prove a moot point. The word of God is consistently described as a thing hundreds of times throughout the Bible. Trinitarians mistranslated John 1:1 based on personal theology rather than sound scriptural foundation and reason.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, I was going to say Hebrews is a good place to begin. Jesus' sin sacrifice is how sin and death were defeated so he had to die. So do you believe only his human body died and that's it, or was his spirit and/or soul sacrificed as well?
I still see you are not able to provide a paraphrase or example of applying these words to a human person. It is because the verse does not make sense in the way you twist it.
Runningman
Active Member
The Word isn't Jesus in John 1:1. Not what it says.
You cannot even understand about paraphrasing. I cannot tell if you are being evasive or just unskilled in paraphrasing to show how to make sense of the verse if applied by saying the Word was with Mike and the Word was Mike.
Runningman
Active Member
"Jesus is the word" isn't a paraphrase. If Jesus was ever called the word you may have a point.
He is called the Word
Revelation 19:13 (NASB95)
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Still, you have missed the discussion at hand. How do you make sense of a human-centric message like:
the Word was with Mike and the Word was Mike?
This fashion simplifies how you can explain a point similar to John 1:1
Victoria
Active Member
Please don't make the same mistake Arius, & others made, who follow in this fable
Let's just put it this way... if Jesus was only a created mortal being, there's absolutely no way he could've handled God's wrath, let alone raise Himself up the third day following His crucifixion. The Father, Son, & Holy Ghost all played part in the resurrection. Jesus Himself even said He'd raise Himself up. No created mortal being is capable of doing this!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:19
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:24
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall
also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Romans 8:11
Runningman
Active Member
That doesn't say Jesus is the rider on the white horse. If you have a point to prove, please go ahead and do it.
so you think the Word of God in John 1:1-18 changed to someone else in Rev 19?
The same Word of God in John 1 has to logically be the person who is the Word of God in Rev 19:13. Also mere ideas or thoughts of God are not to be viewed a riding a horse.
First you hold that John 1 has Jesus appearing from thin air. Then you have Jesus disappearing by the time John reaches verse 13 in Revelation 19. You really become picky how you select the Word of God either to a person or without a person.
You have to skip so many allegories and symbology in scripture to divest the Rev 19:13 from being Christ Jesus. You cannot be taken seriously.
Runningman
Active Member
As I said, you have yet to prove your "Jesus is the Word" theory in light of the Word not being God in the entire Bible, God never said to have incarnated, and Jesus never said to be the Word. You have quite an uphill claim to prove your ridiculous assertions.
You have to deny Christ again in Rev 19:13. that is your trademark.
Runningman
Active Member
I can prove that isn't Jesus. I have a lot to say about that, actually, but the first thing is that the rider on the white horse isn't in the same place as Jesus at the same time.
Jesus on earth:
Revelation 17
14They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.”
...Chronologically leads to Revelation 19:11...
The rider on the white horse in heaven:
Revelation 19
11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war.
