All Claims of The Son's Deity

[praise_yeshua]

The attack on the core fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith? No, didn't catch any of those comparisons.
Please feel free at any time to share those comparisons, & how the AV butchers them.

I've already studied the manuscripts issue.

Again, I don't know who you're describing here, but it surely isn't me.

Do your own work. You said you compared other versions. Did you actually compare anything?

 

[Victoria]

Do your own work. You said you compared other versions. Did you actually compare anything?

All that God desires today is for all men to be reconciled back unto Himself.
What's more important than that? Absolutely nothing!

Paul advises Christians to avoid foolish arguments, as they lead to quarrels, & are unproductive.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus Christ was fully God, & fully man.

That would be a hybrid human being-----Jesus was fully human. God is not a man, a mortal, a human.

"Thy" is an archaic possessive form of "thou," meaning "your."

But unto the Son he saith, Thy [your] throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy [your] God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 1:8-10

Therefore God [the Son], even thy [your] God [the Father].

I KNOW what 'thy' means. TO THE SON HE SAYS: Your throne O God is for ever and ever . . . . therefore God (the Father), your God (the Son's God) = therefore the Father your Father has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions.
Remember this is quoted from Psalm 45 addressed to a human king.

A created mortal being cannot be humanity's Saviour.

If the LORD God wants a human being to be the Savior of humanity . . . If the LORD God chooses to have a mortal human being, an offspring of the woman be His Son and anoints him to be our Savior then we will have a human being as our Savior. That's God's prerogative ---- not ours.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:3; 5

If Jesus isn't God, wouldn't Jehovah then be breaking His own commandment by commanding we worship Jesus? The disciples worshiped Jesus. If Jesus isn't God, they broke the first commandment as well while under the law. If we give reverence
to anyone other than God Almighty, that would be idolatry. We can only worship one God.

If one is worshiping Jesus AS GOD . . . notice AS GOD then yes one would be committing idolatry. The disciples worshiped Jesus for who he was - the Christ of God, i.e. the Messiah not as Almighty God. So no one is breaking a commandment in honoring and giving reference to Jesus AS THE MESSIAH and NOT AS GOD.

I never got the impression that you were, amazing.

All I meant by saying you're in a different camp was that we don't have the same Jesus Christ.

Thank you, hun

I hope you, & yours had a lovely Thanksgiving!

No we do not have the same Jesus Christ. My Jesus Christ is the Son of God, a mortal being, a human being who could actually shed his blood for the forgiveness of my sins and die a death that I deserved so that I could be free from 'the wages of death' and have the gift of God - eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Jesus Christ that scripture tells all about from the very first prophecy concerning him at Genesis 3:15 and to the culmination of the Eternal Kingdom in Revelation 22.

 

[Victoria]

No we do not have the same Jesus Christ. My Jesus Christ is the Son of God, a mortal being, a human being who could actually shed his blood for the forgiveness of my sins and die a death that I deserved so that I could be free from 'the wages of death' and have the gift of God - eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Jesus Christ that scripture tells all about from the very first prophecy concerning him at Genesis 3:15 and to the culmination of the Eternal Kingdom in Revelation 22.

Again, let's agree to disagree respectfully, w/ grace

 

[synergy]

In the flow of what Jesus said, Jesus was praying to the Father and said to Him "You, the only true God" so he was not just giving the Father a title, but excluding all others from being "the true God." Only is an adjective modifying God, not modifying the word "true" and not "Jesus." So the object of exclusive deity of the Father alone.

Notice how Jesus didn't say "We are the only true God" but instead used the singular pronoun "You" to described the Father who alone is the only true God. Notice how Jesus distinguished himself from the only true God and said he is the one "You" have sent. So there is a sender vs. sent distinction.

There is no ambiguity about what Jesus said as he spoke to the Father. It's quite crystal clear “that they may know YOU, the only true God” So no matter how you want to spin it, whether only modifies God or the Father is a meaningless distinction because it still refers to the same person. It's also meaningless to look further into the context. The Father was already identified as the only true God who alone is God. You can't change it no matter how hard you try.

You just verified that John 17:3 does not say "Only you" or You alone". It promotes Monotheism, "the only true God" which Trinitarianism does support. You can't change those facts no matter how hard you try.

And you continue to run away from my question:

Why do you believe the Word, who was God, ceases to be God when He dwelt as Jesus on Earth?

 

[Runningman]

That does not say the disciples speak what the Father has commanded them. THe only exception is if they are called to speak to kings and rulers.

The Father speaks through the disciples and Jesus. This is something I have brought up to you all before, but I haven't done it often. This changes everything.

Matthew 10
20For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

John 14
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

The issue is concerns the recognition that Jesus is God and not a fake one. Maybe you have heard of that dilemma that had to be resolved.

That's not what John 17:1-3 is about. It's just about pointing out who God is and it excludes Jesus from being God.

 

[civic]

The Father speaks through the disciples and Jesus. This is something I have brought up to you all before, but I haven't done it often. This changes everything.

Matthew 10
20For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

John 14
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

That's not what John 17:1-3 is about. It's just about pointing out who God is and it excludes Jesus from being God.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

next fallacy

 

[civic]

We read in the Bible that the Father doesn't give glory and praise to idols.

Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Hebrews 1:3, Isaiah 6:3, John 12:41, 1:14, 18, 17:24).

Also,

Romans 1:21-25 ...and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. ...

But yet, the Father glorifies the Son.

2 Peter 1:17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

a). At the Son's water baptism

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” (Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22)

b). At the Son's transfiguration

Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him! (Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35)

c). Before the Son's passion

John 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 12:23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

John 12:27-30 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

John 13:31-32 When he was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

The Father and the Son shares glory

John 11:4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”

John 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Revelation 5:11-13 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” Binyawmene

conclusion: These 5 BIBLICAL facts/witnesses testify to the Son and His Glory as God,

1- Jesus testimony about Himself that the O.T.- all the law, prophets and the Psalms are about Him
2- The testimony of the Father- This is My Son listen to Him
3- The Holy Spirits ministry is to Glorify the Son, bear witness to the Son
4- The Sons words are spirit and life
5-He is God because God will not share His glory with anyone.

hope this helps !!!

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

You just verified that John 17:3 does not say "Only you" or You alone". It promotes Monotheism, "the only true God" which Trinitarianism does support. You can't change those facts no matter how hard you try.

And you continue to run away from my question:

Your initial accusation was that I was maliciously adding the word "alone" to John 17:3 quickly faded away when you got declawed and defanged by the fact that "only" explicitly means "alone, or the only one" in the English and Greek. Now you seem to be imagining that I have somehow helped you. Perhaps you just need to create an alternate reality for yourself to believe for self-soothing therapeutic purposes.

It must be a hard pill to swallow that the Bible does indeed explicitly state that the Father alone is the true God. That's no small matter for you, as it completely undermines your religion, your faith, your god, and proves it to be an idol. The only one standing in your way is you at this point. I pray you no longer try to deceive yourself and finally come to believe in God for who Scripture, without contradiction, declares Him to be: the Father alone.

 

[civic]

Your initial accusation was that I was maliciously adding the word "alone" to John 17:3 quickly faded away when you got declawed and defanged by the fact that "only" explicitly means "alone, or the only one" in the English and Greek. Now you seem to be imagining that I have somehow helped you. Perhaps you just need to create an alternate reality for yourself to believe for self-soothing therapeutic purposes.

It must be a hard pill to swallow that the Bible does indeed explicitly state that the Father alone is the true God. That's no small matter for you, as it completely undermines your religion, your faith, your god, and proves it to be an idol. The only one standing in your way is you at this point. I pray you no longer try to deceive yourself and finally come to believe in God for who Scripture, without contradiction, declares Him to be: the Father alone.

Yes its a hard pill for you since Jesus alone is the One Lord, Only Lord. There is no other Lord but Him.

Jesus is the only one, who alone is the One Lord a person must confess to be saved. Romans 10:9-13. Jude 1:4, 1Corinthians 8:6- One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Ephesians 4:5.

next fallacy.................

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Today has been a demonstration of sound biblical exegesis supporting the Divine Son contrasted with the uni denial of the Son via eisegesis.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Every day we get the opportunity to Glorify the Son on the forum. Fopr that I thank my Great God and Savior Jesus Christ- Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1- He is the True God and Eternal Life (1 John 5:20 ), the One Thomas confessed as his Lord and his God (John 20:28 ). The One who is before all created things and the one who created all things ( John 1:1-3, John 1:10, Hebrews 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:8-10, Colossians 1:15-17, Ephesians 3:9,

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

Your initial accusation was that I was maliciously adding the word "alone" to John 17:3 quickly faded away when you got declawed and defanged by the fact that "only" explicitly means "alone, or the only one" in the English and Greek. Now you seem to be imagining that I have somehow helped you. Perhaps you just need to create an alternate reality for yourself to believe for self-soothing therapeutic purposes.

It must be a hard pill to swallow that the Bible does indeed explicitly state that the Father alone is the true God. That's no small matter for you, as it completely undermines your religion, your faith, your god, and proves it to be an idol. The only one standing in your way is you at this point. I pray you no longer try to deceive yourself and finally come to believe in God for who Scripture, without contradiction, declares Him to be: the Father alone.

You maliciously continue to add "alone" to "You", the Father, as in "the Father alone". The word "only" is mentioned solely in the phrase "the only true God" which promotes Monotheism and which Trinitarianism already agrees with. It's certainly a hard pill to swallow when your poor reading comprehension is exposed for all to see.

 

[civic]

You maliciously continue to add "alone" to "You", the Father, as in "the Father alone". The word "only" is mentioned solely in the phrase "the only true God" which promotes Monotheism and which Trinitarianism already agrees with. It's certainly a hard pill to swallow when your poor reading comprehension is exposed for all to see.

we know it backfires on them 100% of the time since the bible says the Son is the One/Only Lord in the bible.

they like to have their cake and eat it too but their argument fails and they use a double standard not applying that same reasoning with the Father being called the only God with the Son being called the only Lord.

its hypocrisy, double standards, a failed argument showing their inconsistency and bias.

we on the other hand are consistrent with the One God, One Lord argument since we know both are Lord and God.

and until the Lord removes the veil over their minds/heart they will continue to deny the Lord who bought them as Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1 and Paul in 2 Timothy 4:3-4. until then the god of this world has a stronghold over them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Its a spiritual battle not an intellectual one. The use the wisdom of men arguments against Christ which always fail and they are blinded to the spiritual truth of His true identity.

of course the spiritual blind never think they are blind. thats the deception of a stronghold, you believe what you think is true and its the exact opposite.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

we know it backfires on them 100% of the time since the bible says the Son is the One/Only Lord in the bible.

they like to have their cake and eat it too but their argument fails and they use a double standard not applying that same reasoning with the Father being called the only God with the Son being called the only Lord.

its hypocrisy, double standards, a failed argument showing their inconsistency and bias.

we on the other hand are consistrent with the One God, One Lord argument since we know both are Lord and God.

Your argument proves true because the LXX translated YHWH directly and always to "The Lord", which the Apostles went along with, proving Jesus is YHWH.

My approach is to call them out on their insertion of "only" or "alone" right next to "You", the Father, in John 17:3. They will scream and bitch about that but in the end that's an insertion on their part and that's a no no for Scripture.

 

[civic]

Your argument proves true because the LXX translated YHWH directly and always to "The Lord", which the Apostles went along with, proving Jesus is YHWH.

My approach is to call them out on their insertion of "only" or "alone" right next to "You", the Father, in John 17:3. They will scream and bitch about that but in the end that's an insertion on their part and that's a no no for Scripture.

yes its a strawman argument that always fails since they do not use the same standards with the
Father as they do the Son.

Jesus calls it denying the Son and declared those who deny the Son the Father will also deny. But having a stronghold over them with the truth they are blind to the true identity of Jesus.

its like I was blinded by tulip for many years and couldn't see it until God opened up my mind and I will willing to read and study with an open mind instead of my presuppositions/bias. its no different here with the uni except for them its salvific, with the C/A debates its. not a salvific issue.

 

[Runningman]

You maliciously continue to add "alone" to "You", the Father, as in "the Father alone". The word "only" is mentioned solely in the phrase "the only true God" which promotes Monotheism and which Trinitarianism already agrees with. It's certainly a hard pill to swallow when your poor reading comprehension is exposed for all to see.

Monos literally means alone. Your false accusations and your false god stand refuted.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent

3441. monos ►​

Lexical Summary monos: Alone, only, solitary, single​ Original Word: μόνος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: monos Pronunciation: MO-nos Phonetic Spelling: (mon'-os) KJV: alone, only, by themselves NASB: alone, only, just, merely, even, mere, only one Word Origin: [probably from G3306 (μένω - abides)] 1. remaining, i.e. sole or single 2. (by implication) mere​

​

 

[civic]

Monos literally means alone. Your false accusations and your false god stand refuted.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent

​

3441. monos ►​

​

​

​

Lexical Summary monos: Alone, only, solitary, single Original Word: μόνος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: monos Pronunciation: MO-nos Phonetic Spelling: (mon'-os) KJV: alone, only, by themselves NASB: alone, only, just, merely, even, mere, only one Word Origin: [probably from G3306 (μένω - abides)] 1. remaining, i.e. sole or single 2. (by implication) mere​

​

Yep and Jesus is the only Lord same word Jude 1:4

Next failed argument

 

[Runningman]

Yep and Jesus is the only Lord same word Jude 1:4

Next failed argument

Ok, as long as the Father is God alone then I won't bother with explaining the hierarchy of lordship between them. Do you also know Jesus is not co-equal with God?

 

[synergy]

Monos literally means alone. Your false accusations and your false god stand refuted.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent

​

3441. monos ►​

​

​

​

Lexical Summary monos: Alone, only, solitary, single Original Word: μόνος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: monos Pronunciation: MO-nos Phonetic Spelling: (mon'-os) KJV: alone, only, by themselves NASB: alone, only, just, merely, even, mere, only one Word Origin: [probably from G3306 (μένω - abides)] 1. remaining, i.e. sole or single 2. (by implication) mere​

​

We believe "the only true God". That is Monotheistic which we believe.. That's the only place the word "only" is used in John 17:3. So what's your point?