All Claims of The Son's Deity

[amazing grace]

Just like the Father is the only true Savior, right?

"I, even I, am the Lord, and there is no savior besides Me." Isaiah 43:11

Nope, God sent out many saviors/delivers throughout the OT to deliver his people.

God is the Savior in that it was HIS plan of salvation that would bring redemption and forgiveness of sins to humanity ----
He gave/sent his Son to carry out HIS plan of salvation and in that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. BOTH CARRY THE TITLE OF SAVIOR. God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ shares many titles with His Son.

 

[amazing grace]

Okay. Say that is true for a moment.

Say it's true? Didn't Jesus pray that to his Father? I would say that it is true.

Lets get back to the "harm"......

Eternal life isn't just about knowing the Truth. In fact, I believe people have Eternal Life that don't actually know that much about God at all.

Don't we have to become as "little babies"? What does a "little baby" need to know?

Take this "journey" with me. Lets get to the bottom of this. I hear others in your words. I don't hear you.

'unless you turn and become like children' - strephō 1) to turn, turn around; 2) to turn one's self, i.e. to turn the back to one a) of one who no longer cares for another; b. metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind

We are to change our way of thinking, our conduct and humble ourselves as children when we come to God and to the things of God - willing to submit ourselves to God in obedience to him.

 

[civic]

Just like the Father is the only true Savior, right?

"I, even I, am the Lord, and there is no savior besides Me." Isaiah 43:11

Another stumbling block since the Bible says Jesus is the Savior of the World, not the Father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Say it's true? Didn't Jesus pray that to his Father? I would say that it is true.

Sure. I suppose you believe you're equal to Jesus because you do the same thing?

'unless you turn and become like children' - strephō 1) to turn, turn around; 2) to turn one's self, i.e. to turn the back to one a) of one who no longer cares for another; b. metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind

We are to change our way of thinking, our conduct and humble ourselves as children when we come to God and to the things of God - willing to submit ourselves to God in obedience to him.

The goal of any father isn't obedience from their children. That is only necessary when they're children/babies

So, back to "harm"......

What is the harm in seeing the Father perfectly in Jesus Christ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Another stumbling block since the Bible says Jesus is the Savior of the World, not the Father.

Sounds like everyone better treat them the same..... I know Jesus said this explicitly to Phillip

Joh 14:9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

 

[civic]

Sounds like everyone better treat them the same..... I know Jesus said this explicitly to Phillip

Joh 14:9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

And we know that no man could ever make that claim unless He was God

 

[Runningman]

Another stumbling block since the Bible says Jesus is the Savior of the World, not the Father.

The Father saved the world through Jesus.

John 3
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Jesus' role is the Messiah, the sacrificial lamb so to speak, but God made him the Messiah.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

 

[praise_yeshua]

And we know that no man could ever make that claim unless He was God

I hate to see others not realize WHO they're really offending in this. I'm glad Jesus Christ is kind and patient with us all.

 

[mikesw]

I hate to see others not realize WHO they're really offending in this. I'm glad Jesus Christ is kind and patient with us all.

I saw a group who claims they do not have doctrine. They just share directly what the scriptures say. It sounds like some of the people arguing for the unitarian view in this discussion.
If there were not verses that conflict with the verses they say are indicative of a non-divine Son, they might have a point. The problem is that these unitarians have to explain away the verses that conflict with their denial of the divine Son. It is sort of bias and self-deceit required for them to hold that they are just saying what all the verses mean and that they are not having to interpret the meaning.

Also, if the verses were unified in the way they presume, we all would be in perfect agreement rather than having to share the verses showing Jesus' pre-existence. Their denial of that conflict is simply their bias.

 

[amazing grace]

Sure. I suppose you believe you're equal to Jesus because you do the same thing?

I thought everyone prayed to the Father through Jesus name?

The goal of any father isn't obedience from their children. That is only necessary when they're children/babies

So, back to "harm"......

What is the harm in seeing the Father perfectly in Jesus Christ?

Oh there is no harm in seeing God the Father perfectly in Jesus Christ . . . we know the Father, the only true God by way of his Son. The Son came to declare, make known the Father. But knowing God the Father by way of his Son is not saying that Jesus is God. . . there's the harm.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I thought everyone prayed to the Father through Jesus name?

I pray to Jesus Christ rather often. So. No. Not everyone prays to the Father. I believe Jesus is alive. I talk to Him/Pray rather often. I pray my own prayer of safety over my family daily. At least I try to.

Also, I find it rather odd to ask the Father to do something "in the name of Jesus" or "through Jesus's NAME" and pretend you're not actually including Jesus in everything you pray. After all, you have no access to the Father without including the Son. ZERO.

I didn't ask you about praying exactly. I asked you if you think you're equal to Jesus. You're the one that made the argument that Jesus can't be equal to God because He prayed to the Father. Which is really offensive to those who honor Jesus Christ properly.

Oh there is no harm in seeing God the Father perfectly in Jesus Christ . . . we know the Father, the only true God by way of his Son. The Son came to declare, make known the Father. But knowing God the Father by way of his Son is not saying that Jesus is God. . . there's the harm.

Okay. You could have actually said what was the harm there but you didn't. Elaborate what exactly is the harm? Please provide detail.

My position is rather simple. I can't dishonor the Father by treating His Son equal to Him/The Father.

So please provide detail.

 

[civic]

I pray to Jesus Christ rather often. So. No. Not everyone prays to the Father. I believe Jesus is alive. I talk to Him/Pray rather often. I pray my own prayer of safety over my family daily. At least I try to.

Also, I find it rather odd to ask the Father to do something "in the name of Jesus" or "through Jesus's NAME" and pretend you're not actually including Jesus in everything you pray. After all, you have no access to the Father without including the Son. ZERO.

I didn't ask you about praying exactly. I asked you if you think you're equal to Jesus. You're the one that made the argument that Jesus can't be equal to God because He prayed to the Father. Which is really offensive to those who honor Jesus Christ properly.



Okay. You could have actually said what was the harm there but you didn't. Elaborate what exactly is the harm? Please provide detail.

My position is rather simple. I can't dishonor the Father by treating His Son equal to Him/The Father.

So please provide detail.

Same here mostly to the One who saved me - Jesus God in the flesh

 

[Victoria]

Are you kidding? Were you looking for ABBA? I said 'Yahweh is the Father of scripture' - Yahweh (YHWH) is God's name.

The children of the Father now call Him Abba, Father. No where in the New Testament are we commanded to call Him by His name. You're getting legalistic, which was the problem w/ those Yahweh groups that sprung up in the 1930's.

Once a person is saved, a personal relationship begins to take place, given the person desires that relationship.
If you address your biological dad by his name, then something's wrong there.

For surely you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O LORD are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old is your name. (Isaiah 63:16)
From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him. . .But now, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; all of us are the work of your hand. (Isaiah 64:4,8)
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)

We're not a chosen people here. The Old Testament (including everything prior to the cross) is about Israel, & only Israel.
Ephesians 2:12-16

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:15-16

And be careful not to get this confused w/ the new covenant. God's promises to born-again Israel.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-12

Mark 14:36 which you had under your OT quotes is in the Gospels.
I'm sorry that you think ABBA is the only reference to the Father.
Jesus mentions his Father all the time!!! God is his God and his Father and our God and our Father . . . John 20:17

God's name wouldn't have to be exalted HE IS THE ALMIGHTY.
Yep, Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER (you missed another reference to God being the Father!)

Jesus Christ is the Alpha, & Omega, the first, & the last in Revelation.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was,
and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8

Who's coming here, amazing? The Almighty = Jesus Christ

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 1:17-18

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:8

Yes, 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:' Deut. 6:4
To whom then will you compare me? Who is my equal? says the Holy One. (Isaiah 40:25)
Now therefore, O LORD our God, deliver us from (Sennacherib's) hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone, O LORD, are God. (Isaiah 37:20)
For I am God, and there is no one else; I am God and there is no one like me. (Isaiah 46:9)
There is no one other than me; I am the LORD, and there is no one else. (Isaiah 45:6) . . . that is the God of the Bible.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out
of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isaiah 8:8

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:23

And I suppose the Holy Ghost should've instead inspired "God's Son with us." Oops

I am not worshiping 'two gods' for I do not worship Jesus AS GOD but as my risen Lord Jesus Christ, God's Messiah.
I honor the Son just as I honor God the Father who sent him - each in their respective positions.

So it seems that you may be worshiping 'two gods' for you worship God the Father and you worship the Son also AS GOD.

As Jesus told unbelieving Israelites:

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father:
if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
John 8:19

The book of John is solely about Jesus Christ being God Almighty. So yes, you've got two gods.

I am a Biblical Unitarian. Yes, truth matters.

You follow Arius, a man who invented Arianism. That isn't truth.

 

[civic]

The children of the Father now call Him Abba, Father. No where in the New Testament are we commanded to call Him by His name. You're getting legalistic, which was the problem w/ those Yahweh groups that sprung up in the 1930's.

Once a person is saved, a personal relationship begins takes place, given the person desires that relationship.
If you address your biological dad by his name, then something's wrong there.

We're not a chosen people here. The Old Testament (including everything prior to the cross) is about Israel, & only Israel.
Ephesians 2:12-16

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:15-16

And be careful not to get this confused w/ the new covenant. God's promises to born-again Israel.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-12

Jesus Christ is the Alpha, & Omega, the first, & the last in Revelation.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was,
and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8

Who's coming here, amazing? The Almighty = Jesus Christ

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 1:17-18

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:8

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out
of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isaiah 8:8

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:23

And I suppose the Holy Ghost should've instead inspired "God's Son with us." Oops


As Jesus told unbelieving Israelites:

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father:
if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
John 8:19

The book of John is solely about Jesus Christ being God Almighty. So yes, you've got two gods.

You follow Arius, a man who invented Arianism. That isn't truth.

Well said

 

[Victoria]

You're wrong about so many things above. I'm not part of of any the categories/groups above.

The pot always calling the kettle black. Did you not accuse me of being an extremest, a cult, just b/c I happen to find the AV the most accurate, & reliable translation? I hold the #2 position. You parrot the same regurgitated nonsense you've been taught to parrot. Two Arians come along, calling God a liar, release a New Greek Text, & a great majority of modern day professing Christians jump on board.

Am I missing the hypocrisy here, praise?

We'll be judged one day. Where's the fear of God in the matter? There will be those who hold His Word in unrighteousness.
If God failed to preserve His Word, then yes, that would make Him out to be a liar! Not having God's preserved Word is sinful man's wishful thinking.

The AV exalts Jesus Christ, doesn't change 2 Timothy 2:15, teaches the Gospel that saves today, doesn't make salvation a process, but a done deal the instant one believes. Church history shows the apostasy w/ Rome until the Reformation brought forth a revival w/ the AV. Once the newer translations came forth, & caught on within modern Christiandom... apostasy returns, & is worse than ever.

The Word of God is the sword, our defense against the god of this world. Evil seducers will wax worse, & worse. How many lives were in danger, or were martyred just to bring us the New Greek Text, the so-called older, & more reliable manuscripts you speak of? Funny how the common theme throughout the Bible is people dying for their faith. Think Protestants.

So what do you not like about Codex Alexandrinus? I have meet very few people that actually know anything about it.

Did you know that Codex Alexandrinus was gifted to King James just a few years after his bible was produced. It is the property of the English monarchy. Just like the copyright for the KJV.

I can honestly say the AV alone is all I need to defend the faith. Not once have I ever felt the need to go to the Greek.
If God's Word alone isn't enough, then perhaps you don't have the preserved copy of the copies of the originals.

Satan has always been at war w/ God's Word. It hasn't ended either, just look to the liberal scholars, & Bible Colleges.

 

[Victoria]

Well said

What do you about Arianism having it's own area on the forum under Discussion of Controversial Topics, civic?
The most activity I've noticed is the continuous attacks on the Godhead.

 

[civic]

What do you about Arianism having it's own area on the forum under Discussion of Controversial Topics, civic?
The most activity I've noticed is the continuous attacks on the Godhead.

When we started the forum we wanted to make all the forums open to everyone with no segregation. Personally I don’t like how they have been treated on other forums.

Also for the most part the ones here will be respectful. We just talked about it in a thread and I asked that we treat each other better and practice the golden rule

 

[Victoria]

When we started the forum we wanted to make all the forums open to everyone with no segregation. Personally I don’t like how they have been treated on other forums.

Also for the most part the ones here will be respectful. We just talked about it in a thread and I asked that we treat each other better and practice the golden rule

Agreed. The bickering, & mockery is immature, & only causes discord. Having open dialog is the way to go, agreeing to disagree respectfully, keeping it tasteful on all topics, would be more mature of us all. Myself included. We can do better than this.

 

[amazing grace]

The children of the Father now call Him Abba, Father. No where in the New Testament are we commanded to call Him by His name. You're getting legais listic, which was the problem w/ those Yahweh groups that sprung up in the 1930's.

Once a person is saved, a personal relationship begins takes place, given the person desires that relationship.
If you address your biological dad by his name, then something's wrong there.

Correct, I don't speak to God as Yahweh - Yahweh, LORD is just his personal name and scripture even makes a point to establish that name by writing LORD in all caps in the OT.
I don't address my heavenly Father as ABBA either, if you do that's great.
When I pray or just talk to Him I usually just say Father or God or even sometimes heavenly Father. I wasn't making it legalistic that people HAD to say Yahweh when speaking about him - TO ME when I read scripture especially the OT, I like to read LORD as Yahweh. I really don't understand WHY you have gotten so offended . . .

We're not a chosen people here. The Old Testament (including everything prior to the cross) is about Israel, & only Israel.
Ephesians 2:12-16

I understand that the OT is about Israel. I understand that Jesus was a Jew and lived under the Law. But we need to learn from the OT and listen to all Jesus said in the gospels during his ministry.
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. [Romans 15:4]

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:15-16

And be careful not to get this confused w/ the new covenant. God's promises to born-again Israel.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-12

Yes, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. What covenant is Jeremiah 31:31-34 (Hebrews 8:7-12) speaking of if not the new covenant? Hebrews 8:13 ends the chapter in this manner: "speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." It seems that Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 is talking about the new covenant.

Jesus Christ is the Alpha, & Omega, the first, & the last in Revelation.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was,
and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8

Who's coming here, amazing? The Almighty = Jesus Christ

The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (Isa. 44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13). All three phrases, “the First and the Last,” “the Beginning and the End,” and “the Alpha and the Omega,” are very similar in meaning and all are said of Jesus in Revelation 22:13.

Revelation 1:8 refers to God . . . the Almighty - Jesus is never addressed as the Almighty.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” IOW, God has always existed. Only God is all-powerful (2 Cor. 6:18; Rev. 4:8; 15:3; 16:7; 19:15; 21:22) and only God is immortal (1 Tim. 6:16). God is the only Almighty one.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 1:17-18

Revelation 1:17,18 refers to Jesus Christ. He lived and was dead and is now alive for evermore. God is immortal; God cannot die.

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:8

Revelation 2:8 refers to Jesus Christ - who was dead and is alive.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out
of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isaiah 8:8

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:23

And I suppose the Holy Ghost should've instead inspired "God's Son with us." Oops

Yes, one of the names of Jesus is Immanuel meaning God with us or God is with us = through His Son Jesus Christ - God is with us. God was in His Son and the Son in Him . . .“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. . . God with us.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself . . . God with us.

As Jesus told unbelieving Israelites:

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father:
if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
John 8:19

The book of John is solely about Jesus Christ being God Almighty. So yes, you've got two gods.

You follow Arius, a man who invented Arianism. That isn't truth.

Almighty God is the Father; Jesus Christ is His Son. How are those two gods? Did Paul also have two gods because he also made a distinction between God the Father and his Son in the greetings of his epistles?
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 2 Corinthians 1:2,3
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, ...Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, ... Ephesians 1:1-3
etc., etc., etc. . . . that's the truth.

I am a Biblical Unitarian. It really would be respectful to me that you not continue to label me as an Arian or as a follower of Arius. Thank you.

 

[Runningman]

What do you about Arianism having it's own area on the forum under Discussion of Controversial Topics, civic?
The most activity I've noticed is the continuous attacks on the Godhead.

Might be why most Christian forums have banned the trinity topic to the point one cannot even voice their position for or against it or some have just banned all those who dissent from their statement of faith. This is an apologetics board, though, some healthy debate is going to occur since the forum seems to be open to everyone which is a necessary evil or else it would just be an echo chamber. Outsiders to Catholicism and Protestantism view the trinity as the weakest link in the entire machine so that's why it feels like it is being attacked sometimes. We believe it's the easiest one to debunk.

This being an apologetics board means it is here to defend a belief or doctrine through reasonable argument or evidence. My perspective is this forum is attracting debates with its name because of what the word apologetics mean. Can't defend something that someone isn't challenging, thus challenges must be welcome.