All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Runningman]

According to some research I've done, Gnosticism's roots are found in Egypt, where all the ancient mystery religions originate from. It was one of the heresies taught at the school of Alexandria. The teaching of the Godhead was never taught in Egypt, but in Antioch, where they were first called Christians. Acts 11:26

No. Trinitarian style gods are not a new thing, they are quite old. By the time your group went fully pagan, they just became another group on the list. Christianity is a strictly monotheistic one-person God in Christianity.

Egypt and other pagan nations developed trinitarian gods in their own religions too.

Egypt​

"The Hymn to Amun decreed that 'No god came into being before him (Amun)' and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.' . . . This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon. Clearly, the concept of organic unity within plurality got an extraordinary boost with this formulation. Theologically, in a crude form it came strikingly close to the later Christian form of plural Trinitarian monotheism" (Simson Najovits, Egypt, Trunk of the Tree, Vol. 2, 2004, pp. 83-84).

"The origin of the conception is entirely pagan"​

Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, while himself a Trinitarian, summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in the following excerpt from his previously cited book:

"It must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . .

"The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities: there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth . . .

https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...-trinitarian-gods-influenced-adoption-trinity

 

[Runningman]

The one on gnosticism seemed to say that modern unitarianism is a form of gnosticism of them claiming special doctrine of novel sort that is indefensible but still is advocated in opposition to the testimony of scripture.

On the other hand, Trinitarianism simply reconciles the scriptures about the divinity of Christ that must remain consistent with the sense of God's oneness expressed in the Shema. This reconciliation is necessary to expose the heretics who deny who Christ is by deny he is of the Godhead, shared in the Shema.

Gnostic religions like trinitarianism refer to mystery and secret knowledge. The trinity is a mystery according to many sources. Unitarians don't propose any mysteries. Got Questions is incorrect about that.

The Shema is about one God the Father, known as YHWH, according to Scripture. No mention of others in the Shema.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Dear trins,

If the Word became flesh, then is the Word a human? A simple yes or no will do.

I'm not a "trins" (miss characterization on your part")

You really are very childish.

How does dung come about? Have you ever used the bathroom. Was what you ate resemble what it was?

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

This "stuff" you're peddling is dead. It stinks. You're getting it all over yourself.

1Ki 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

According to some research I've done, Gnosticism's roots are found in Egypt, where all the ancient mystery religions originate from. It was one of the heresies taught at the school of Alexandria. The teaching of the Godhead was never taught in Egypt, but in Antioch, where they were first called Christians. Acts 11:26

Gnosticism is almost as old as man.

Abraham lived in Egypt. You can't trust everything you read. The internet is a very very dark place at times. You can't google and know God. You must go to Jesus Christ to know God. There is no hope for you otherwise.

If you want to learn, and you certainly need to, then you're not going to learn anything good from @Runningman

Maybe you can be an independent "party" here.

Do you love Jesus Christ? I've seen nothing from @Runningman to indicate he does. Nothing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Gnostic religions like trinitarianism refer to mystery and secret knowledge. The trinity is a mystery according to many sources. Unitarians don't propose any mysteries. Got Questions is incorrect about that.

The Shema is about one God the Father, known as YHWH, according to Scripture. No mention of others in the Shema.

There is no YHWH. It was fabricated nonsense that keep people from God.

"Shema" is traditionalism. It inserts the "compromised" name of God.....Adonai. It was taught by men that rejected Messiah exactly like you do.

We're seeing your "many masters" now.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. Trinitarian style gods are not a new thing, they are quite old. By the time your group went fully pagan, they just became another group on the list. Christianity is a strictly monotheistic one-person God in Christianity.

Egypt and other pagan nations developed trinitarian gods in their own religions too.

Egypt​

"The Hymn to Amun decreed that 'No god came into being before him (Amun)' and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.' . . . This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon. Clearly, the concept of organic unity within plurality got an extraordinary boost with this formulation. Theologically, in a crude form it came strikingly close to the later Christian form of plural Trinitarian monotheism" (Simson Najovits, Egypt, Trunk of the Tree, Vol. 2, 2004, pp. 83-84).

"The origin of the conception is entirely pagan"​

Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, while himself a Trinitarian, summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in the following excerpt from his previously cited book:

"It must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . .

"The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities: there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth . . .

https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...-trinitarian-gods-influenced-adoption-trinity

Nowhere in the NT does the word Jesus appear.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, I do deny the logos refers to a preexistent Son, Jesus. That's not rejecting scripture if that is not what the scripture is claiming which it isn't.

No, I do not nor have I ever denied Jesus is the true Son of God - He is the Son of God, the Christ therefore, he is not God. In the belief of a Triune God . . . there is no true Son of God. God became flesh - God never gave up being God so there is NO SON, NO salvation . . . .

Can Jesus do things you can't do? Are you a human yourself?

Have you ever "opened" a gift?

What you found inside was more valuable than what it was wrapped in.....

Wasn't it?

So childish.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. Trinitarian style gods are not a new thing, they are quite old. By the time your group went fully pagan, they just became another group on the list. Christianity is a strictly monotheistic one-person God in Christianity.

Egypt and other pagan nations developed trinitarian gods in their own religions too.

Egypt​

"The Hymn to Amun decreed that 'No god came into being before him (Amun)' and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.' . . . This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon. Clearly, the concept of organic unity within plurality got an extraordinary boost with this formulation. Theologically, in a crude form it came strikingly close to the later Christian form of plural Trinitarian monotheism" (Simson Najovits, Egypt, Trunk of the Tree, Vol. 2, 2004, pp. 83-84).

"The origin of the conception is entirely pagan"​

Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, while himself a Trinitarian, summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in the following excerpt from his previously cited book:

"It must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . .

"The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities: there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth . . .

https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...-trinitarian-gods-influenced-adoption-trinity

Didn't God exist before Egypt? Those people that knew God and didn't glorify Him as God.... did what?

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

There is that word "invisible"........

Do you care to actually deal with anything of substance? You really need to deal with YOU.

Every man has a problem within himself. It is difficult to get a stubborn person with an independent mind that knows so very little to even listen to anything.

What did they do? They TURNED God into something He wasn't. To "sell this", they made what they promoted similar to what they knew.

 

[dwight92070]

Arianism is correct. Heresies like modalism and trinitarianism are false teachings.

Want to test it against Scripture? Scripture explicitly states all of the points of Arianism.

What @dwight92070 said is modalism because it treats God, the Word, and Jesus as the same person in different forms, different locations, rather than persons in a godhead. I guess he probably knows that and hopes no one would notice. I see a lot of modalism and Gnosticism in trinitarianism. Trinitarianism is just a melting pot of all the heresies.

What you've described is the doctrine of modalism, not the doctrine of the trinity, i.e., “God was in heaven, Jesus was God in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit was God...”

No, I am not a modalist. I believe God is 3 distinct beings, not ONLY 1 being as the modalists believe. Yet each of the 3 are God and they are also God corporately.

"In the beginning was the Word(an eternal Person), and the Word was with God (distinct Persons), and the Word was God (the same Person)."

Granted, I do not totally agree with the traditional Trinity view, which says that each of the 3 Persons is God, and corporately they are God, yet each is NOT the other.

I believe that each of the 3 Persons is God and they are God corporately. So far that's the traditional view. But here is where I differ. Even though I believe that each of the 3 Persons is distinct from each other, I also believe that at the same time, they ARE each other. Isaiah 9:6 informs us that the Son IS the Mighty God AND the Everlasting Father. 2 Corinthians 3:17 informs us that "the Lord IS the Spirit." So Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. Then in Acts 5:3-4, Peter reveals to us that the Holy Spirit is God. In verse 3, Peter says that Ananias "lied to the Holy Spirit", but in verse 4, he "lied to God". So the Holy Spirit IS God who IS the Father.

No the Word is not flesh. The Word became flesh. Apparently He was the Eternal Spirit or the Eternal Life, as John called Him in 1 John 1:1, before Jesus was born. Then that Eternal Spirit or Eternal Life known as the Word entered into Mary's womb and Jesus was conceived in the flesh.

 

[Runningman]

I'm not a "trins" (miss characterization on your part")

You really are very childish.

How does dung come about? Have you ever used the bathroom. Was what you ate resemble what it was?

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

This "stuff" you're peddling is dead. It stinks. You're getting it all over yourself.

1Ki 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”

Nonsense from the mind of a very dark person. Let's see how far we can push you.

I'll ask again.

Dear trins,

If the Word became flesh, then is the Word a human? A simple yes or no will do.

 

[Runningman]

There is no YHWH. It was fabricated nonsense that keep people from God.

"Shema" is traditionalism. It inserts the "compromised" name of God.....Adonai. It was taught by men that rejected Messiah exactly like you do.

We're seeing your "many masters" now.

It's worser than I thought with you. You don't even believe in God since you deny there is YHWH. Have you ever heard of Hebrew before? It's called a language and it's what the Old Testament was written in. The singular one person God in Scripture is explicitly named YHWH and there are a couple dozen people named after Him, i.e., Elijah for example who's name literally translates to "my God is YHWH" and many more like Abijah whose name means "my Father is YHWH." The list goes on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's worser than I thought with you. You don't even believe in God since you deny there is YHWH. Have you ever heard of Hebrew before? It's called a language and it's what the Old Testament was written in. The singular one person God in Scripture is explicitly named YHWH and there are a couple dozen people named after Him, i.e., Elijah for example who's name literally translates to "my God is YHWH" and many more like Abijah whose name means "my Father is YHWH." The list goes on.

I don't deny God at all. I simply deny the teaching of "YHWH".

If you knew what I know about it. You would too.....

I've debate much better men than yourself for many years. You don't know languages or manuscripts at all. You're following other people. I'm not.

 

[mikesw]

Yes, I do deny the logos refers to a preexistent Son, Jesus. That's not rejecting scripture if that is not what the scripture is claiming which it isn't.

No, I do not nor have I ever denied Jesus is the true Son of God - He is the Son of God, the Christ therefore, he is not God. In the belief of a Triune God . . . there is no true Son of God. God became flesh - God never gave up being God so there is NO SON, NO salvation . . . .

Jesus Christ was/is a man, a human being - the Son of God. From his birth, he was the heir of God. His inheritance will be the nations. As the son of David, he is born king of the Jews. Yet this man divests himself of privilege and takes the role of a servant. From the beginning, God had in store for him a glory that is greater than he bestows on any other ruler. Jesus accomplished all the things God gave him to do . . . Jesus chose obedience to his Father in all things remaining sinless up to his death on a cross - God raised him from the dead and exalted him to his own right hand and one day, he will rule a kingdom wherein dwells righteousness. I would say that is a pretty awesome human being!

You deny Jesus is the Son of God while saying you believe it. The designation is not just a nice little phrase but is telling of Jesus's essence. Not sure how you think you can wiggle out of that. You denigrate him while you claim to praise him.

Exactly why they did not write about nor accept a Triune God concept.

I have. But you keep denying God

There is enough written in the Gospels alone that clearly and plainly let us know Jesus the Son of God was the Lord's Christ, the Messiah.

When I say the OT does not speak clearly about the Messiah, that at least is critical to Runningman because he keeps denying the pre-existence of Christ because he does not see it in the OT. My point has nothing to do with the NT revealing it. But I'm glad you support my demonstration of the probably One in the OT who is later revealed as the divine One who became flesh.

Denying a literal preexistence is not denying Christ . . . he preexisting in the foreknowledge, the mind of God.

It sure is denying Christ.

Again I was commenting on FreeInChrist statement and according to what was said - Jesus is a separate God - God has a son who is God. AND Jesus has a God .. . . Again HOW MANY GODS?????

I see your confusion and I exposed it as confusion and you still persist.

Pot calling the kettle black . . . .

If you look at common Christianity and its history, the awareness of the Triune God has existed for most of time. The divinity of Christ in the Shema has been known for the full era. So, if you want to present a novel doctrine, go through sufficient debate with qualified theologians to transition your doctrine from some backwater novel idea into an accepted one. DUH!

 

[mikesw]

Gnostic religions like trinitarianism refer to mystery and secret knowledge. The trinity is a mystery according to many sources. Unitarians don't propose any mysteries. Got Questions is incorrect about that.

The Shema is about one God the Father, known as YHWH, according to Scripture. No mention of others in the Shema.

Again. You are the one who suddenly has a novel view. Get it through another christian-wide council and make it official instead of holding a backwater novel idea as private interpretation. Or become more efficient and just acknowledge yourself as JW.

 

[amazing grace]

You deny Jesus is the Son of God while saying you believe it. The designation is not just a nice little phrase but is telling of Jesus's essence. Not sure how you think you can wiggle out of that. You denigrate him while you claim to praise him.

It is Almighty God who gets denigrated . . . I honor the Son just as I honor the Father. . . . whoever does not honor the so does not honor the Father who sent him.

I have. But you keep denying God

When I say the OT does not speak clearly about the Messiah, that at least is critical to Runningman because he keeps denying the pre-existence of Christ because he does not see it in the OT. My point has nothing to do with the NT revealing it. But I'm glad you support my demonstration of the probably One in the OT who is later revealed as the divine One who became flesh.

The only way Jesus is present in the OT is through prophecy given to the prophets and therefore, in God's foreknowledge. I can't help that you do not believe scripture concerning the foreknowledge of God.
I really don't think I support anything that you believe concerning God and his Son - You do not know them.

It sure is denying Christ.

Whatever . . .

I see your confusion and I exposed it as confusion and you still persist.

Apparently it is you that is confused. You clearly did not read what FreeInChrist wrote or you just can't count.

Jesus has a God . . . and God has a son who is God . . . then who is Jesus' God???

How many Gods do we have??? Let's see - God (1) has a son who is God (2) and Jesus has a God (3).
Not Biblical . . . . I believe that is what you call polytheism.

If you look at common Christianity and its history, the awareness of the Triune God has existed for most of time. The divinity of Christ in the Shema has been known for the full era. So, if you want to present a novel doctrine, go through sufficient debate with qualified theologians to transition your doctrine from some backwater novel idea into an accepted one. DUH!

Unitarianism, the belief in ONE God, is not a novel doctrine. The doctrine of monotheism was taught via revelation given to the prophets, taught by Jesus and taught by the apostles ---- the doctrine of the Trinity is a doctrine contrived by men centuries after the scriptures were written.

The divinity of Christ is not in the Shema.

 

[Keiw1]

That is the only thing that you logically could be contesting. Do you think people actually are thinking Jesus did not acknowledge God?

No trinitarians are mislead into serving a non existent God. Jesus served the God Israel serves=a single being God=YHVH(Jehovah)= undeniable fact of reality.

 

[Keiw1]

AS I pointed out to you in another thread....

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

I even pointe out what the Watchtower said over there....

So, Jesus has a God.... and God has a son who is God.

All biblical

I showed you Heb 1:4 contradicts that error at 1:8

 

[Keiw1]

I thought you were going to quote someone that said what you claimed they said. Where is that quote at?

We teach Unity between the Father and the Son. You preach division. You create a separation between the Father and Son that doesn't exist.

Stop making up untruths about me. I know 100% Jesus lives 24/7-365 doing his Fathers will, as do all true followers.( Matt 7:21) No division whatsoever. Only the trinity religions are a house divided, they will not stand.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I showed you Heb 1:4 contradicts that error at 1:8

It does not matter. I showed you what the Watchtower did... and made a slight change that did not change a thing.

I really do not care.

There is a new translation that is alledged to be the best and most perfect and I found errors in it and I wont use it.

I will try to not bother you again.

 

[Keiw1]

It does not matter. I showed you what the Watchtower did... and made a slight change that did not change a thing.

I really do not care.

There is a new translation that is alledged to be the best and most perfect and I found errors in it and I wont use it.

I will try to not bother you again.

The nwt fixed the errors Catholicism translated in=100% reality.