if you have a god that agrees with you, you have gone down the wide path.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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Runningman
Active Member
So you're saying you have switched positions and now agree with the binity. I am glad you have dropped one of your fake gods. Now we just need to get you to finally agree with Scripture about there just being one God. It only took a little over a year.
he who denies the son denies the father.
Runningman
Active Member
So now you're blaspheming God as a deceiver. What else you want to say?
I just note that the binitarian belief is a good start. Some people neglected the Holy Spirit in their consideration. There was a lot to study and learn back then.
Runningman
Active Member
Ironic you mention that and deny the Father as the one God for us. You have denied the Son by your own admission.
Runningman
Active Member
Binitarians are more difficult to debate because the Bible continually talks of God and Jesus together, while the Holy Spirit is never saying anything to them or vice versa. Nevertheless, Scripture is clear Jesus was created and the Father is the only true God.
I cannot deny the testimony of scripture of the divinity of Christ Jesus. There is nothing that says the Father is the only one found to be God. It is not worded to deny the divinity of Christ. It is worded to show the disciples came to know the only true God -- and that is not exculsionary of Christ in the Godhead. You just want to introduce novel doctrine rejecting Christ.
wow. you sure get odd twists on scripture.
Runningman
Active Member
Your misunderstandings regarding Jesus don't really seem like misunderstandings, but really just flat out denials. Scripture does indeed explicitly say Jesus was created in Revelation 3:14, there are others, but the one in Revelation is the clearest. It also isn't a fringe or weird translation, but rather a very common one and a literal one. Jesus' creation is also stated in John 1:3,14 and Colossians 1:15. I have explicit Scripture for literally everything I believe. I am very comfortable in my beliefs and not interested in converting to your religion, or becoming a muslim, scientologist, binitarian, or whatever else people have suggested around here. I'll just stick with Christianity.
I feel like a fool checking the verses you mention. They never say what unitarians hope they say. Revelation 3:14 is rather vague to use to deny Christian doctrine. You are offering novel ideas as if they should suddenly be trusted. But you cannot make a solid argument against the pre-existence of Christ or passages diretcly showing his divinity. It is pure danger for you to create new doctrine and think somehow you have exposed some grand deception that all Christians fell for.
Of course I do hope you return to true Christianity instead of unitarianism. It is so insane to make a new claim like you are doing -- especially with lack of real support for it. If it was something that you could reasonably argue, that would be a different story. But your interpretations are way far off.
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amazing grace
Active Member
Yep, now you are trying to change what you have said and this is what you said:
Definitely not what you are claiming you said.
What doesn't make sense is to call him the Son of God who is God.
Yes, Jesus did say "the Father is working and so am I".
He also said: The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. . . . “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
and . . . If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. [John 10:25,26,32,37,38]
And Peter said: Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know------ [Acts 2:22]
Lions Mane
Active Member
We do have both Jesus and the Father and they are one.
"Why call me good? No one is good except God alone." He is telling them He is God.
Jesus' way of making the young man reflect on his own perception of Jesus. By asking this, Jesus was not denying his own goodness, but rather highlighting that only God possesses perfect, inherent goodness, and encouraging the man to understand Jesus' divine nature by fully confronting the concept of goodness itself.
amazing grace
Active Member
READ THE CONTEXT - It's about the care of the sheep. Jesus says 'No one can take the sheep out of my hand' (v28). . . 'No one can take them out of the Father's hand'.(v29) Jesus and the Father are one in purpose and mission. Now go read John 17 where Jesus prays for us to be one with him and one with the Father . . . same meaning. I believe Jesus also says - my Father is greater than all . . .
WHY CALL ME GOOD?????? If he is telling them he is God - why didn't he accept being addressed as 'Good teacher'?
Correct, Jesus is emphasizing the goodness of God his Father - perfect, inherent goodness which Jesus must not 'inherently' have because here he made a distinction between himself and God.
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
You are the one whop does not read....., IT IS NO WONDER YOUR ARE SO WRONG ON SO MUCH... YOU SIMPLY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ.... OR YOU SKIM IT LIKE A SPEED READER MISSING SPECIFIC INFORMATION IN YOUR QUEST TO PROVE IT HAS TO BE WRONG.
Tertullian was not 4th century.
Tertullian, who was born around AD 150-160, explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Neither was Polycarp
Polycarp, ( 69 - 155 AD) in his last prayer before martyrdom, acknowledged a tri-personal God, referring to the Father, His beloved Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, indicating an early understanding of the Trinity. His teachings reflect a belief in the distinct persons of the Godhead while affirming their unity as one God.
Nor was Ignatius of Antioch (Early 2nd century)
As far as Ignatius goes Ignatius of Antioch laid foundational thoughts about the Trinity, emphasizing the importance of each person in the Godhead while contributing to the evolving understanding of this doctrine in early Christianity.
Or
Theophilus (169–181 AD)
Theophilus is noted for being the first to use the actual word "Trinity" (Greek: Trias) in his work "Ad Autolycum."
You deny what is fact by twisting words because you cannot have the facts as they are.
You might do better to claim that these are not biblical... IOW in the bible.... therefore it matters not what they believed.
Of course, history bears the fruit of most as they have not been buried under the sand..
If you are going to pull the TRINITY is not in the bible as a word.
Reason #!.. The Heavenly Father only wants certain people to understand.
Reason #2.... Does not matter simply because there are words and things that are understood that are also not in the bible.
Such as.... You might want to make "whoopie" with your wife, yet that is not in the bible.... The correct term in the bible is "know"
Where there is evidence... as such from 4 historians among others (I only listed these) that arrive at the same conclusion, even though using different wordings.... ... it is fact
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Neither is "making Whoopie" but you know what the bible does say ....
the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are clearly in scripture. YOU are saying they are not.
The word Godhead is clearly in scripture you are saying it is not.
The 3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are clearly in the Old Testament.... I guess you say they are not. I did just post on that.
civic
Active Member
Yes the broad road filled with idols
civic
Active Member
Notice they most often counter with non related verses that we post and never address them but run to and fro here a little there a little as a diversion
Lions Mane
Active Member
Calm down.
- To provoke thought: Jesus used this question to challenge the young man to think more deeply about who Jesus is and what his own words implied. It was a way to make him confront the idea of Jesus' divinity.
- To emphasize God's perfection: The statement underscores that all goodness originates from God and that no one else is inherently good apart from Him.
- To direct him to God's law: Jesus then followed this by mentioning the commandments, showing the path to righteousness and guiding the man toward the divine law of God.
- Not a denial: This was not a denial of Jesus' own goodness. Instead, it was a way for him to fully reveal his divine nature by pointing to God as the ultimate source of all goodness.
Got?
civic
Active Member
Jesus is saying He is Good and therefor God. The "context" clearly reveals Jesus is Good. Its one of the most clear passages of the Sons Deity in all of Scripture.
Mark 10:13-27
13 People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 "You know the commandments, ' DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus, looking around, * said to His disciples, "A How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 The disciples A were amazed at His words. But Jesus * answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, " Then who can be saved?" 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
Jesus point in His questioning of the ruler was rhetorical in nature. Do you know who you are calling good? Only God is good. He was saying to the ruler "Do you know who I Am and who you are speaking too? If you read on it becomes obvious for Jesus turned him away from gaining eternal life. He knew what was in his heart and keeping him away from the kingdom. Only God knows what is in mans heart and can allow a person into His Kingdom. Jesus was clearly claiming to be God in this passage.
No prophet, apostle or teacher has ever talked in this presumptuous way in which Jesus did in the gospels and especially in this passage in the synoptic gospel. The young ruler runs up to Jesus kneels to Him in worship and asks Him how can I obtain eternal life? Jesus answers back and said come "Follow ME!" Do you see what Jesus is claiming? He does not say, these are the teachings that God has given me or follow these rules and you will get into heaven. He did not say to follow God or submit to God. Jesus tells the man to follow Me! Only God has that prerogative.
He was saying indirectly to the ruler, know that whom you are speaking to is God. He was letting the young ruler understand who he was talking to and addressing as good. Look at it this way, Is He saying He is not good, and therefore not God? Or is He saying that He is good, and the reason this man can call Him good is because He is God? I opt for the second statement.
Let’s examine the context of the passage and what is going on when this man approaches Jesus. He says why do you call me good and points out to the man that only God is good. The man is unaware of His identity which Jesus who knew men’s hearts was aware of with the young ruler. This man thought of Jesus as just a mere man and not the Son of God. Jesus response was not one of denying His own sinlessness or deity. The context clearly shows just the opposite to be true. Jesus claims absolute authority over the young ruler by asking him to come and Follow Me. To call Him "good teacher" you better recognize who you are speaking to and this is exactly the point Jesus was getting across to the young ruler. Jesus is eternal life and the man was unaware of this truth which is rather obvious by his questions.
How does one obtain eternal life? Jesus confronted him with His Lordship when He said come and follow Me. Jesus confronted the man's sin of covetousness. It was a sin of indulgence and materialism. He was indifferent to people who were poor and in need. So Jesus gave him the ultimate test, would he obey His Lordship? The antis and non trins get all hung up on who is good and cannot see past the plank in their own eyes to see what one must do to be saved. They're still in an unbelieving state and miss out on eternal life from its very source, Jesus. Rather sad indeed.
If we further examine the context of the question asked by the young ruler in verse 13 we read; people were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, He was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And He took the children in His arms, put His hands on them and blessed them. 17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to Him and fell on his knees before Him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus answered. Let’s see what question was asked of Jesus. How can I get eternal life?" is the question. "Follow ME!" is the answer that he gets from Jesus. Do you see what He is claiming? He does NOT say, these are the teachings that God has given Me. Follow these rules and you will get to heaven. He did not say, "follow God or submit to God", but he said "Follow ME!". Jesus is Lord and had the authority to ask of mankind, Follow Me!
John 1:6-8
John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through Him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
John 5:39-40
39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 8:14
" Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
John 8:18-20
18 I am one who testifies for Myself; My other witness is the Father, who sent Me."
19 Then they asked Him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know Me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:44-45
44 Now He said to them, " These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Its all about Jesus from beginning to end. He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega ! He is the Great I Am. The Good Shepherd indeed ! He is the very source of life itself which includes eternal life- John 1:4. In Him was life !
conclusion: the "context" always disproves unitarianism.
hope this helps,
